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Cultural lens or personal bias, presumably. While some inspirations, homages or crafting techniques can be readily identified as intended, the reader can often draw comparisons that aren't really there based on what they bring to the text themselves, and even make a case for it.

I could probably make a good argument that John Grammaticus in Legion is basically Zakalwe from Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons with the edges filed off, but I don't believe for a second that it is in fact the case. More like similar ground and my own personal bias (I read about Zakalwe first and like the character) makes me draw the connection.
In sorry but comparing anything in 40k to America is just plain wrong
 

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Of course ! :grin:

Yet, the feeling of the ultramarines in "Know no fear", (You know, "Theoretical/Practical" things...) is quite... evocative of a more modern army that I am used to in 40K.

That's why I said "USA" or "SAS", maybe I should have said "USMC" or "Navy Seals", maybe.

If I wanted to stretch the idea very far, I would have said that something like Calth is reminiscent of Pearl Harbor, Or 9/11 with a 40K scales. A fiendish attack surprise that cause a lot of mayhem, shock and disbelief. But maybe he was just influenced by the times, or I was.

And it doesn't help that the story is essentially constructed like many hollywood war movie.
Um....There isnt an army in the world right now that uses theoreticals and practicals....

And ultramarines act nothing like Americans in their mannerisms. From your logic i could easily say the Ultramarines are more Canadian inspired, as the Canadian military is much more disciplined and trained over the Americans.

The ultramarines are Roman insprired, Thats all
 

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I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.

No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.

When you get a closer look on Maccrage inthe Unremembered empire, it looks more like a modern country of the early twenty century.

And John Grammaticus looks more like a cross between James Bond and Jason Bourne, with a dash of Zakalwe from Consider Phlebas indeed.

That doesn't stop neither to be awesome, tough.
Well your entitled to you opinion
 

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Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.

As for lokens comments regarding theoreticals and practicals, I'm not entirely sure what he's on about. Racks room talk is pretty much all about what happens if the Russians Attack, or where they're going to come from, or what if it's the Americans, or what we're going to do about Africa.
But theoreticals and pTactical a are something each individual member of the ultramarines come up with. There isn't an army in the world that does this
 

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Vaz is saying that no, troopers in modern armies do frequently come up with independent theoreticals and frankly, I think his word on that is more valid than yours from what I know of you both.
Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.
 

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As a total aside, I learned (thanks to the General Election in the UK) that "theoretical" and "practical" are terms used by statisticians when analysing polling.
So, uh. That's completely irrelevant. But something I noted.

The idea is surely just a 'Ultramarine-y' way of referring to something many militaries do (as well as problem-solvers in other fields).

I'm reminded of a section in a Neal Stephenson novel when a US marine who achieved hero status for defeating a Japanese infantry assault was interviewed about his tactics when presented with such a situation, so others could learn from it.
He answered "You kill the ones with the swords first"
The interviewer asked if this was a strategy based on the theory that the one with the sword was the officer of the unit. They reply was
"No, you ******* it's because they run at you with a ******** sword! You ever had someone running at you with a ******** sword?!"

Theory meets practical.
Thats interesting about the politics thing. I guess that's where abnett got his inspiration from. So it's a British influence and had nothing to do with military. Very cool
 

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Not in so many words. That's putting a grand sounding name on it.

Considering that FPGRM was based in Arbroath, as in, the UK's nuclear submarine base, and the single greatest threat to any "theoretical" Russian invasion of the land, it was customary to have various plans and contingencies, with back ups for if they failed.

I can't tell you the number of times (seriously, I can't, it's a legal thing) when I've fished out Special Boat Service personnel performing a probe on our defence, or caught Special Air Service parachuting in, or any other various numbers of "random passersby" who "just so happen" to have ended up taking a picture in a spot that's not particularly helpful to security.

These happen from learning via experience of doing them wrong, but from people saying "what if".

One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.
Well, I think its the fact they turned from the Emperor. That itself was unthinkable to them. That being said it was naive of the ultramarines to think that.
 

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Vaz makes a good point. We even have WBs speculating about how the UMs got so big is because they absorbed survivors of one of the missing legions, and then it's the UMs that are sent to censure the WBs on Monarchia. It really isn't plausible to think that Guilliman went into that confrontation without having some sort of contingency plan in case it all went tits up, however unlikely he thought that was.
Guilliman himself was never....fond of lorgar. He knew there was resentment. But I dont think he could have ever thought it would lead to this.
 

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From The Unremembered Empire, which takes place two years after Know No Fear.

It does seem silly that Guilliman wouldn't have thought running theoreticals on fighting Astartes was a good idea, but as a narrative feature, going from having him censure anyone running theoreticals on killing Space Marines to running full simulations on all the other Primarchs and presumably their Legions in a span of less than two years really emphasises how important Calth is and how much it changed the people involved.

It still doesn't make sense that Guilliman hadn't done it before Calth, but I can kinda forgive it as a narrative device.



On the other hand, there is the one line in Betrayer along the lines of Lorgar realising that Guilliman had never hated him before. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him which is why Guilliman agreed to the events of Monarchia, but in Betrayer he realises that's not the case and Guilliman never actually had a big issue with Lorgar and actually took part in Monarchia because of his duty and obedience to the Emperor. However, I might have remembered that wrongly, so if someone with the book can confirm it either way I'd be grateful.
No your right. What i meant by he wasnt fond of him, was that he didnt agree with how lorgar acted. (the whole religious thing)

I think the reason Guilliman didnt run theoreticals on fighting astartes, is because the notion is absurd to him, and bordering on treason.
 

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And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, just in case.

The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he had planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.
You do know the whole Calth thing was set up by horus. Horus odered Guilliman to have his legion at Calth. So, no Guilliman didnt feel the need to have his whole legion there.
 

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And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, just in case.

The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he had planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.
Jesus, it's like talking to a brick wall. Whether or not the Emperor ordered him to do it, whether or not the idea was absurd and almost treasonous to him, do you really think he'd go in there without a plan for taking on Lorgar and 50,000 SMs? If you choose to believe that, you really haven't any sort of clue about the nature of the Primarch and Legion that you fanboy to death in every thread.
You do realise the emperor ORDERED guilliman to send his WHOLE legion to burn monarchia to demonstrate to lorgar what real astartes look like right? Holy fug mate. Was guilliman preparing for a fight? Who the hell knows
 

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Garviel's right guys.

Guilliman was only ordered to burn it to the ground, so there's no reason whatsoever as to why he'd expect to have a fight.
And then lorgar, that foolosh bastard, had to kneel to guilliman and the emperor.

And it's not like guilliman couldn't be expecting lorgar to be a bit feisty, but I don't think it permits him creating theoreticals on fighting other astartes, especially after lorgar was compliant
 

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He might not expect it, but he certainly would have been prepared for it.

"Right lads, we're gonna go in here, level one of Lorgar's greatest works, embarrass and prostrate him in front of his legion, and I'm pretty sure he won't lift a hand against us. Not sure about Malcador though. He might get it." Sorry, doesn't work for me. By his very nature he'd have come up with several plans to counter any action Lorgar might take within seconds of being given his orders. He wouldn't be able to stop himself. Things like that are at the very core of his being.
And I agree to An extent. Lorgar is a loose cannon and guilliman may have been cautious, but I still don't think merits guilliman creating theoreticals on how to fight astartes. Yes this may be naive on GUILLIMANS part
 

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But why would guilliman have prepared to fight though? He was only going to burn down the largest jewel in the Word Bearers crown of the most jealous and zealous of his brothers.

There is no rhyme or reason as to why he'd have thought that the Word Bearers would have attacked, because they're weak and slow and the worst astartes ever.

I'm embarrassed I'm having to be this overly obviously sarcastic too.

Fuck sake, it's less like arguing with a Brick wall, Brick walls at least have a purpose in life.
I'm aSsuming the whole brick wall thing was directed at me, and fine that's your opinion. But now I know your parents couldn't have been nothing more then gorillas, as no one could raise a child this badly.

That or you have never had a gf.
 

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What you choose to find insult in is of no concern to me.

As for gorillas, unlikely, the balding would make me the unluckiest gorilla ever. Poor chap.

As for never having had a "gf", eh, I'm adult enough to type it out fully. But considering the maturity of your comebacks, I'm going to publicly apologise for giving shit to a 3 year old.

Now, please go play in the sand pit.
You just made it 10 times worse for yourself hehe
 
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