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Ok. So I am sitting earlier today on my lunch break looking at the SM codex, casually ignoring the mock jibs thrown my way for playing this game, when it dawns on me...

WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH THE BOLTER??

Now, what i mean is, take a look at the bolter. now look at it some more. now take a good HARD look at it. Notice anything off? ill offer a hint, Its the ejection port.
Now, i know the stats behind the bolter; it fires a .75 caliber, miniature rocket propelled, fin stabilized explosive warhead round out to a range of (roughly) 450 meters accurately {gw never really specified the max range or anything like that}. It can come in different ammo patters, the dragonfire, the kraken round, the hellfire, etc, which is awesome. i love reading about that lil tidbits of fluff. but i really want to know, how does the gun work.
You look at it, and the first thing i see is how the ejection port is nearly at the top of the gun, and not in-line with the barrel. And then i look at the pictures of the gun in action, and i see these really small shell casings coming out and i compare it to the barrel of the gun; total mismatch of sizes.

So, has anyone, at any time, read in a previous WD or BL book that makes mention of how this great weapon works?
 

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Bolters use the same science as spaceships that travel through hell and allow teenagers to be transformed into nine-foot tall genetic supermen with direct neural interfaces to their unobtanium powered armour, to fight extragalactic bioengineered killing machines and sapce fungus bovver boys.

Don't think about it too hard, basically. It's a submachine gun that fires caseless explosive minimissiles, because at the outset 40k was hilariously, ridiculously over-the-top.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Except that it does have cases. We had a thread about this a while back and basically it amounted to "it's a caseless explosive sometimes."
 

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Pally-HO!!!!
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because at the outset 40k was hilariously, ridiculously over-the-top.
It's not anymore? :laugh:

The bolter is also supposed to fire caseless rounds, but in the pictures you always see bolters ejecting casings like it's going out of style. Also, they're supposedly deuterium-filled. Deuterium is a radioactively stable isotope of hydrogen, and according to my sources that's both physically impossible and a terrible idea for an explosive payload.

But, hey, chainswords!!! :eek:k:
 

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It's not anymore? :laugh:

The bolter is also supposed to fire caseless rounds, but in the pictures you always see bolters ejecting casings like it's going out of style. Also, they're supposedly deuterium-filled. Deuterium is a radioactively stable isotope of hydrogen, and according to my sources that's both physically impossible and a terrible idea for an explosive payload.

But, hey, chainswords!!! :eek:k:
It uses a depleted uranium core, not deuterium filled. I couldn't find any type of bolt filled with deuterium in it.

I'm no nuclear physicists, but deuterium can be used in fusion reactions with tritium or itself.
 

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It uses a depleted uranium core, not deuterium filled. I couldn't find any type of bolt filled with deuterium in it.

I'm no nuclear physicists, but deuterium can be used in fusion reactions with tritium or itself.
You've obviously not seen the 3rd Edition BRB then where it states that Bolts use depleted Deuterium.
 

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Deuterium, in larger quantities, yes... like a compressed cylinder, roughly twice the size of a camping propane canister, with a microwave-emitting detonation device and a rip-cord primer handle. This, we call the meltabomb.

Or, on a weaker scale, in massive magneto-resonance chambers housed inside bulky gun-casings, deuterium can be superheated by electricity, then sprayed forward by the magnetic field, producing the effect of a bolt of bluish white plasma gas, racing towards an ork.

Or an even bigger scale, Kawasaki Ninja sized body of ceramic unobtanium-lined inter-stellar torpedo able to survive entry through an atmosphere, containing roughly a one ton TNT equivalent hydrogen bomb without the radiation.. This, we call a melta torpedo.

Back on the subject of Deuterium as a core, in the 3rd ed BGB (the paperback thing they stopped selling maybe 8 years ago?) showed a model of the bolter round, I think, or perhaps it was that edition's space marine codex. Either way, in the old design, it was recorded as deuterium, but I'm sure GW changed the name to depleted uranium when they realized that it was widely known that deuterium was just hydrogen with an extra neutron.

As to the caseless issue. I have seen a lot of diagrams showing bolter shells and their casings. In some, the casing is very short, just enough tubing around the bolter shell to hold it there until the primer is triggered, but in other cases, the casing is much longer, housing about half the rocket fuel inside the casing. I would presume this has to do with ammo stability and making sure the backing (and used primer) are ejected properly without any jamming issues. With an actual casing, you have something big to fish out when it jams, if you have a small back plate with the spent primer, you have little to reach for, and probably won't be able to dislodge it.
 

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Deuterium, in larger quantities, yes... like a compressed cylinder, roughly twice the size of a camping propane canister, with a microwave-emitting detonation device and a rip-cord primer handle. This, we call the meltabomb.

Or, on a weaker scale, in massive magneto-resonance chambers housed inside bulky gun-casings, deuterium can be superheated by electricity, then sprayed forward by the magnetic field, producing the effect of a bolt of bluish white plasma gas, racing towards an ork.

Or an even bigger scale, Kawasaki Ninja sized body of ceramic unobtanium-lined inter-stellar torpedo able to survive entry through an atmosphere, containing roughly a one ton TNT equivalent hydrogen bomb without the radiation.. This, we call a melta torpedo.

Back on the subject of Deuterium as a core, in the 3rd ed BGB (the paperback thing they stopped selling maybe 8 years ago?) showed a model of the bolter round, I think, or perhaps it was that edition's space marine codex. Either way, in the old design, it was recorded as deuterium, but I'm sure GW changed the name to depleted uranium when they realized that it was widely known that deuterium was just hydrogen with an extra neutron.
I'm looking for some where where the bolter uses depleted uranium and other than lexicanum I can't find one...so until proven otherwise GW hasn't retconned the Depleted Deuterium core of a bolt shell. (plus it was 6 years ago since 3rd Edition not 8)
 

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Bolters use the same science as spaceships that travel through hell and allow teenagers to be transformed into nine-foot tall genetic supermen with direct neural interfaces to their unobtanium powered armour, to fight extragalactic bioengineered killing machines and sapce fungus bovver boys.

That is the best, well thought out answer I have ever read! For whatever reason, I laughed my ass off! Have a couple rep for makin me laugh!
 

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the US army tryed some thing like this once (the JPEG bellow is of the pistol), called it the Gyro jet it stand to reson that we can infer propertys about the bolter from the Gyro jet

its perks were and these are abridge qutos
from ://www.deathwind.com/project.htm

No Recoil:Actually there is a slight negative recoil as the projectile actually tends to pull a vacuum in front of itself because of specific design features and the “Coanda” effect.

Very Little Noise:Only a whoosh sound

Superb Accuracy:The projectile design itself is inherently accurate because of the extremely high spin rate

Air, Water, Space , Multi Environment

the reason the USA dumped the Idea was that it had a accuracy problem due to manufactering problems dueing testing that made the Miltary thing the weapon idea it self was the problem. check that web site up there for more.

compare it to the bolter, the Gyro jet was case less, but unlike a normal bullet the thing speed up as it went down range meaning that the farther away you are the more dangerus it is, so for max effect you should combine it with a case for close range performence, this plus the negitive recoil would mean a net 0 recoil this is how you see marines fireing them one handed, trying doing that with a AK-47. the Bullets were not exposive but kentic though it not a far strech to think about puting a warhead on this micro rocket. this also explains the short size of the boter, compare to a space marine its more like a carbine really it becuse unlike a true gun it does not need a long barrel to allow the gas's to speed the Bullet up as it get full speed farther down range. notice the holeon the barrel these let the expanding gass escape as a bolter has no such holes it stands to reason the gas's are harvested to speed the round up yet faster. the bullet could be made from any thing from plasteel to Deuterium to depleted Urainum, would depend on the model really it likely changes based on whats hand, what the chapter traditionaly uses, and what model there useing.

thats about if for my spree and all i could think of on the subject,, whoo that is the longest post i had made to date.
 

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you cant make logic out of a fantasy game because simply it doesnt exist. if you want to play with logic thin about the fact that people are geneticly eginereed to 8 foot tall people with unabtainible metal armor and multiple organs. oh and try this they live forever practicly. oh and a dead emperor who lives because of his active brain being pumped nuietrients to live on. so really theres no logic. but yo have to think GW probably paid those artist to make the drawings for them and the artist probably have only a general ideal about what the marines look like and fluff so its not there fault. plus the cartridges are cool
 

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I am Alpharius.
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the US army tryed some thing like this once (the JPEG bellow is of the pistol), called it the Gyro jet it stand to reson that we can infer propertys about the bolter from the Gyro jet

its perks were and these are abridge qutos
from ://www.deathwind.com/project.htm

No Recoil:Actually there is a slight negative recoil as the projectile actually tends to pull a vacuum in front of itself because of specific design features and the “Coanda” effect.

Very Little Noise:Only a whoosh sound

Superb Accuracy:The projectile design itself is inherently accurate because of the extremely high spin rate

Air, Water, Space , Multi Environment

the reason the USA dumped the Idea was that it had a accuracy problem due to manufactering problems dueing testing that made the Miltary thing the weapon idea it self was the problem. check that web site up there for more.

compare it to the bolter, the Gyro jet was case less, but unlike a normal bullet the thing speed up as it went down range meaning that the farther away you are the more dangerus it is, so for max effect you should combine it with a case for close range performence, this plus the negitive recoil would mean a net 0 recoil this is how you see marines fireing them one handed, trying doing that with a AK-47. the Bullets were not exposive but kentic though it not a far strech to think about puting a warhead on this micro rocket. this also explains the short size of the boter, compare to a space marine its more like a carbine really it becuse unlike a true gun it does not need a long barrel to allow the gas's to speed the Bullet up as it get full speed farther down range. notice the holeon the barrel these let the expanding gass escape as a bolter has no such holes it stands to reason the gas's are harvested to speed the round up yet faster. the bullet could be made from any thing from plasteel to Deuterium to depleted Urainum, would depend on the model really it likely changes based on whats hand, what the chapter traditionaly uses, and what model there useing.

thats about if for my spree and all i could think of on the subject,, whoo that is the longest post i had made to date.

It looks like you know a hell more of these things than I do, so have some rep :victory::victory:
 

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I'm looking for some where where the bolter uses depleted uranium and other than lexicanum I can't find one...so until proven otherwise GW hasn't retconned the Depleted Deuterium core of a bolt shell. (plus it was 6 years ago since 3rd Edition not 8)
My bad.

On the whole recoilles pistol shown above: Bolters in fluff have a certain crack and roar to their report. Erego, simply by fluff accounts of their sounds, we can draw that the bolter does indeed require some element of explosive propulsion. Also, I believe in the current incarnation, the bolter has a small casing in the back with enough propellant to ignite a fuse in the rocket, while simultaneously propelling it down the length of the bolter shaft. The bolter, therefore is not a caseless gun. The shell does self-propel, but requires a kick out the door too.
 

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"Lt, what do those pulse rifles fire?"
"10mm explosive tipped, caseless. Standard light-armor piercing round, why?"
...and yet if you watch carefully, you can see shell casings being ejected as Crpl Hicks and Friends mow down the aliens.

What's my point? Caseless ammo sounds good, because it implies progressive technology. At one point in the mid-90's, it looked like caseless ammo was going to be the ammo of the future - obviously that hasn't happened yet.

So the fact that bolter ammo is currently not caseless, should not really be an issue. I think the mass-reactive aspect of the bolter round is enough of a leap forward in technology - no need for it to be caseless as well. Afterall, we still see heavy-stubbers and auto-guns around, don't we?

The evolution / retconning of lore in W40K can be an issue, no doubt. That's why it's best to always look at the current rulebook/codex for information.

For example, in W40K Rogue Trader (essentially, version 1 of the rulebook) there was no Horus Heresy, Eldar mingle freely with other species (because their lives are boring without external contact), the city of Helsreach is located on a planet called' Logan's World, which is in the Eye of Terror, which 'blinks' every few years, shrouding a number of worlds in a Warp Storm.

Things change - just gotta roll with it :wink:
 

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Apparently the original bolters were caseless had similar problems to the gyrojet pistols; at very short ranges the projectile wasn't lethal. Since then the bolters and ammunition have been modified (sometimes by the owning Marine, and the specs don't always line up with other boltguns, apparently the Techmarines turn a blind eye to it) to have a propellant charge; more often than not this is a cased explosive.

Take a look at weapons like the FN-F2000 and you'll realize that the ejection port doesn't have to be in line with the barrel, and since it's just to get the round up to speed and out the gun at a decent rate, it doesn't have to be very big either...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Take a look at weapons like the FN-F2000 and you'll realize that the ejection port doesn't have to be in line with the barrel, and since it's just to get the round up to speed and out the gun at a decent rate, it doesn't have to be very big either...
i just took a look at the thing, very interesting. would be interesting to fire one of those. gave you some rep khargoth

would love to have the money to have a gunsmith actually build me a working copy of a bolter. would be nice to have on me at a games day...lol!
 

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I saw some probably dangerous garage born schematics for a caseborn mini rocket gun and a short video

What they did was take a model rocket engine and put metal fins smaller than the rockets width on the back that would provide spin and keep it on a designated parabolic arc. then the added some gunpowder to a casing designed to fit snuggly around the rocket. the ignition from the gunpowder propelled the rocket out of the barrel where the freshly ignited rocket extended the parabolic.

Though they showed the gun up close and the concept looked pretty sound but they didn't show it fire from up close they showed it from a distance then ran up to the target where they'd hit the 9 point ring on an inch and a half bulls-eye. not even sure of the distance of the target so i don't know if it was fake but from a standpoint of what little physics i know it seems pretty sound... that would explain the casing and what not but i wouldn't recomend too strongly that you try it unless you have a pretty strong grudge againsty your hands
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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I was actually planning on building one, shouldn't be all to diffiult, althouh I don't know if I could legally do it since the round would be an explosive.. So I was justi going to use .308. Not a true bolter but good enough.
 
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