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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Calling all you fluff veterans!

Before we continue, I am far from a fluff expert - Hell, I read the wiki from time to time, when I see a interesting thing I want to know more on, so the majority of my knowledge comes from there and this forum.

I had a chat the other day with a friend of mine, and I would like all of your input on it. We were discussing the current setting, the Horus Heresy and what we theorized was in the cards for the future.

Now, as I understand it the 13th Black Crusade (which Abaddon has started) is prophesized to be the final and successful one. The Black Crusade to finish what Horus started. Simultaneously, more and more Loyalist Primarchs are being "ressurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) via newer stories and codexes, with Sanguinius and Manus being the only ones being 110% confirmed dead. It is also speculated that Cypher is returning via a datasheet on the 25th of December, where he should be closing in on Terra.

All of this lead us to believe, that a major chapter is about to end in Warhammer 40k. The end of an era, where the 13th Black Crusade is being built up to be a clash similarly epic in scope to The Horus Heresy. A prophecy coming to reality concerning The End-times, the return of the Primarchs and, possibly, the birth of the Starchild. A story that would redefine the chapters, traitor legions and the setting of Emperium and Chaos. A story where the story of Horus and his legacy, might come to a close.

We theorized that some chapters would be killed off completely, similarly to some Legions. That the alliances of characters and chapters/legions would be thrown up for grabs once again and a major revamp of the entire 40k setting would be done.

Now I ask you all; What are your thoughts on this? Do you think it will happen, and if so, which sides do you think will switch? What do you believe will be the outcome of such a chapter closing? I am very eager to hear the thoughts of the experts on this, as I believe more and more that a 3rd chapters is about to start.
 

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Hrm, ive hard to see how they could get away with this. Without a frothing, raging lynchmob of people peeved that their superbly painted expensive models are no longer valid.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Hrm, ive hard to see how they could get away with this. Without a frothing, raging lynchmob of people peeved that their superbly painted expensive models are no longer valid.
Well, they did something similar in Warhammer Fantasy, considering that the Undead faction got split in 2 (Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings) and they did away with Chaos Dwarves all together. So the idea in itself isn't totally unfeasible.
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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I am Tawa, of the internets. Quail before my NERDRAGE!!!! :crazy:
 

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So you're thinking Warhammer 50k?

IMO.
Chaos won, the Black crusade was successful.
Slaanesh found the Eldar. Ynnead, the God of buffering fought and defeated slaanesh - they then both ceased to exist. The Laughing God laughed and took his mask off - revealing he was the deciever all along.
The imperium is reduced to burning cinders, fragmented and corrupted. The Primarchs returned and were defeated. The Starchild was born - this turned out to be the deciever *again*. The Grey Knight 'do not open unless its the end of days' box was opened. In it was a note from a mr d.eciever which read *snerk*.
The tau survived until one of the larger races decided the tau were looking at them funny...
Its then a fight between Chaos, Orks, Necrons and Nids for possession of the galaxy.
Nids win. Then the necrons kick the celestial orrery over and break the galaxy.
 

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Well, they did something similar in Warhammer Fantasy, considering that the Undead faction got split in 2 (Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings) and they did away with Chaos Dwarves all together. So the idea in itself isn't totally unfeasible.
Yeah....but that was in their early years, wasn't it around 3 edition.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
So you're thinking Warhammer 50k?
Not quite, but something along those lines.

The thoughts was that the next edition (or perhaps 8th) would be just after the 13th Black Crusade. It seems like everything currently is leading up to this giant confrontation, that is a huge deal in the history of the Emperium and the Chaos forces.

Now this isn't a thread persay on who wins and what happens at the end of the story, more what the next chapter is. My questions are many, including if the 13th crusade does not happen now, doesn't it seem a bit dragged out in the story of it all? Or has the current setting of 40k been at this brink for several editions?
@Lord of the Night @Child-of-the-EmperorWhat are your thoughts on this? Do you find it possible that they would escalate the setting to this, and if so, what would your predictions be to the changes that would happen?

Yeah....but that was in their early years, wasn't it around 3 edition.
I think so. However, the point still stands that GW are willing to shift the gears of popular armies if the setting fits it.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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The thoughts was that the next edition (or perhaps 8th) would be just after the 13th Black Crusade. It seems like everything currently is leading up to this giant confrontation, that is a huge deal in the history of the Emperium and the Chaos forces.

*Snip*

I think so. However, the point still stands that GW are willing to shift the gears of popular armies if the setting fits it.
The 13th Black Crusade has already been, there was a global campaign about it a few years back where the results dictated the outcome. The Imperium held... barely. Half of Cadia is in flames and Chaos has managed to get a beach head outside the eye. Now they may have back tracked a bit but that was my understanding.

GW also used to give you free models in WD and print paper templates in WD so you could scratch build your own tanks. That doesn't mean they will now.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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Like Jacobite said, they held a global campaign. The current meta-plot more or less ignores those results, and sticks with the theme of 999.M41 being the minute before humanity's midnight, the eve right before the Imperium's final defeat begins.

Could Games Workshop advance the timeline beyond the "Abaddon launches the Thirteenth Black Crusade" date? Sure. Will they? Honestly, I doubt it. I think it comes down to whether their business with 40k-era models starts failing, and/or if supplemental ventures like Heresy-era models don't get the job done. I don't think there are any solid indicators of this happening, though. Not unless you consider the more aggressive/victorious depiction of Abaddon's position in the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines as such.

Incidentally, about Cypher's data slate and his supposed location? Remember, Cypher was a big part of the Thirteenth Black Crusade. He seems to have been the "objective" for the Dark Angels, and was certainly present in the areas around the Cadian Sector (in the Agripinaa Sector, in fact) in the time of the buildup for the Thirteenth Black Crusade.

As such, any information pointing to him being near Terra would almost have to be a rumor - unless the folks at GW are simply rewriting his involvement in the Thirteenth Black Crusade. Otherwise, what exactly did he do in Terra before making his way back to Agripinaa and Caliban in record time? Use the Lion Sword to cause the irreparable failures to the Golden Throne that are referenced in the timeline section of the core rulebook?
 

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Bane of Empires
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@Child-of-the-EmperorWhat are your thoughts on this? Do you find it possible that they would escalate the setting to this, and if so, what would your predictions be to the changes that would happen?
Honestly? No. Nothing will change. And I don't want it to. Also:

1. The 13th Black Crusade has been part of the lore of years, and as others have said, despite moving the setting forward ever so slightly in the worldwide Eye of Terror Campaign, they have now seemingly backtracked and moved back to the immediately pre-13th Crusade era.
2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all.
3. There will be no new major revelations concerning Cypher if/when his data-slate is released.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #11
Very very interesting. I was unaware that the campaign was told previously a couple of years ago, which obviously defects alot of the thoughts that came with the original discussion.

The 13th was supposed to be the final though wasn't it? Or are there any indications of further Black Crusades?
 

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the 13th Black Crusade (which Abaddon has started) is prophesized to be the final and successful one.
I think that sadly you are hoping against hope for a developmental change in the Warhammer 40k universe that GW will not, nor ever, allow to come to pass. 40k is set in the 999 M41 for the reason that that is where all the Table-Top material is based. While the Novels can attempt to "set the Record Strait," the Table-Top was there first; and it is what all 40k'ish material is based on. Without it their really is no Warhammer 40k, novels or not.

In relation to adding new material I think they eventually will; once they recover from their piss poor management of the LOTR disaster (which they are still paying for). Maybe a few new armies, probably some new characters, maybe even some new objectives/scenario's. But I think it will keep the same for now, not until a few years past.

Now, hypothetically speaking, if they did decide to advance it where would they go? Surely it would bring in the chance to expand the game, add new races/rules/characters and introduce new meta-plot lines. Also it would give the chance to bring back the Legions, and better support "Epic" much more than it has in recent years.

I would personally would like to be introduced to the Creators of the Tyranids. No offense boys, but CHOAS SUCKS; SO OUTDATED!! I tire of hearing of Abaddon and his panzies fighting the Emporer's panzies. I tire of the same old rise of the glorious choatic enemy who is smited by a hero of the Imperium. How about some Tau, let them become a strong presence instead of playi9ng the back burner. Maybe an Ork comback, or a Necron Tomb beneath Terra/Mars? The Nids and their Creator, or the rise of the Eldar once more. Maybe even have the Squats/Dark Eldar make a come back into the arena. I just think this Choas vs Imperial crap is so old, and the Horus Heresy series really is just killing it because it leaves nothing open to interpretation; to the imgaination.

Anyway thats my rant.

2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all.
On this subject I must actually say you are quite wrong my freind. While I agree on the rest of your bulletin's, I have notice a growing trend in the last 3 years of writers defining the fact that certain Primarchs are indeed surviviing; if not alive. Until last year I never knew El'Johnson was entombed beneath the Dark Angels homeworld, or that Guiliman might be saved, or that Magnus would seeking revenge upon the Space Wolves(I actually enjoyed that SM Novel about the attack on the Space Wolf homeworld).

Whether or not they will "Resurrect" them is debatable but one thing is certain. The fact that they are setting up sucyh a comeback, or at least creating such situations possible for the writers (with GW approval, curse you Dan Abnett!!). We may see more Primarch vs Primarch clashes in future novels as writers grow more bold, but I agree it may not ever be on the scale it was during the Heresy period.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #14
I think that sadly you are hoping against hope for a developmental change in the Warhammer 40k universe that GW will not, nor ever, allow to come to pass.
I don't know if I hope for it, but I thought the stream of thoughts interesting at least. I do see where you are coming from though, and I wanted to hear peoples thoughts on this matter. Some times, after all, a change of scenery is very welcome :)

Now, hypothetically speaking, if they did decide to advance it where would they go? Surely it would bring in the chance to expand the game, add new races/rules/characters and introduce new meta-plot lines. Also it would give the chance to bring back the Legions, and better support "Epic" much more than it has in recent years.
Well it would also give them a chance to reboot the codexes to a much larger degree than they can currently. Right now they can optimize or change them a bit, but they cannot really give them a reboot, as they still have to fit into the story. If a new chapter starts, it's all up for grabs. This was also a point in the discussion, that they might want to do that further down the line.

I tire of hearing of Abaddon and his panzies fighting the Emporer's panzies.
Well this was actually the start of the debate with my friend, as I agree with you. Even as a Chaos player through and through, I find it a bit sad that the prime scheme is almost entirely of Chaos vs Emperium. What a story it could be if the prime was suddenly a giant WAAARGH instead of the like. My thoughts would be that this could be the next setup, after the 13th crusade was done.
 

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Well this was actually the start of the debate with my friend, as I agree with you.
If that is so then please, do continue. My general point is that many 40k players are tired of the Heresy, tired of the same Choas vs Imperium plot lines (...and it is "Imperium, not "Emperium." The Emperium referes to the Warp, not the institution).

When the fight for Armaggedon came around with Ghazukull Thraka Un Maga vs Yarrick came around I was genuinly excited. Here was a fresh plot line with an epic show down between two great adversaries that would settle the score once and for all. Plus it spawned addicitional Fluff like the "Last Chancer's" and the "For the Greater Good" series. However they let that sputter and die; I was pissed. The Nid invasion of Macragge came up, and I was fired up. Here was humanities last stand against the forces of consuming evil from outside the known galaxy. Good story, they finished that well. The Damocles Gulf Crusade against the Tau really brought the Tau and their fighting abilites/soldier's stories to the forefront. Wish they'd finish that honestly; they left it so open.

Stories such as these excite me, and should you as well. They bring a fresh edge to 40k, and keep us away from the stiffling plot lines of 30 years ago. I'm sorry older Heretics, but the 80's are over, the Heresy period needs to die....PERIOD!

To throw you a bone Nordicus imagine the Nids making their final attempt for Terra; the heartland of biomass for them. That would create whole box sets of miniatures and novels. As you suggested an Ork Waagh!, or perhaps a 4th Expansion of the Tau; finally turning them from nuetral allies to enemies of the Imperium. Your thought on the Necrons, with all their Fluff development lately; how would they play out.

Well it would also give them a chance to reboot the codexes to a much larger degree than they can currently.
Yes....yes it would. I do not think that will be a good thing though. :(
 

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Just to point out battletech was set in the one minute to midnight thing for a long time.

When they finally did advance the story it wasn't as fun.

I mean 40K is all about the imperium dying, if they advance the plot they either have to retcon allot (which I wouldn't put past them) to allow the imperium to survive or they would have to redo allot of armies to match the new fluff.

I personally don't want to know what the nids are running from. It will never be as good as what we can imagine.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Very very interesting. I was unaware that the campaign was told previously a couple of years ago, which obviously defects alot of the thoughts that came with the original discussion.

The 13th was supposed to be the final though wasn't it? Or are there any indications of further Black Crusades?
Yes, the 13th will supposedly be the final Crusade - where Abaddon will usher in the End Times. The worldwide Eye of Terror campaign was roughly ten years ago now, so its been around quite a while.

On this subject I must actually say you are quite wrong my freind.
Nope, I'm right:

Until last year I never knew El'Johnson was entombed beneath the Dark Angels homeworld
You may not have been aware, but for as long as I can remember (and I've been dabbling in this hobby for around 15 years) the Lion has always been "asleep" on The Rock.

or that Guiliman might be saved
Pilgrims believing that Guilliman's wound is healing has been a part of the lore since the Index Astartes articles (if not earlier) and they've been around for about 11 years now.

or that Magnus would seeking revenge upon the Space Wolves
Again, this tale was part of the Space Wolves Omnibus from roughly a decade ago.

(These dates are off the top of my head, I'm sure if I looked into it properly I would find that some of the above lore has actually been around much longer).

Whether or not they will "Resurrect" them is debatable but one thing is certain. The fact that they are setting up sucyh a comeback, or at least creating such situations possible for the writers (with GW approval, curse you Dan Abnett!!). We may see more Primarch vs Primarch clashes in future novels as writers grow more bold, but I agree it may not ever be on the scale it was during the Heresy period.
Nothing new in this regard has happened in recent years, only old lore being reiterated.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
The worldwide Eye of Terror campaign was roughly ten years ago now
Haha yeah ok, that would explain my lack of knowledge. I never went that far back in the lore and campaigns. I do find it interesting that they would do a campaign for a future clash though - I never thought they would do that.

To throw you a bone Nordicus imagine the Nids making their final attempt for Terra; the heartland of biomass for them. That would create whole box sets of miniatures and novels. As you suggested an Ork Waagh!, or perhaps a 4th Expansion of the Tau; finally turning them from nuetral allies to enemies of the Imperium. Your thought on the Necrons, with all their Fluff development lately; how would they play out.
I do find all those stories quite interesting to contemplate - Especially the Necrons which I find have a fascinating history, even though I hate playing against them :p In general there are so many stories and campaigns that I could think of, that would make for excellent story elements. It is my hope that the general story of 40k will some day envelop more than just the Black Crusades, so there's major stories for more races in general.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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Maybe a few new armies, probably some new characters, maybe even some new objectives/scenario's. But I think it will keep the same for now, not until a few years past.
I seem to remember you saying you had definite evidence of a new race for 40K coming out? Guess that's down to a maybe now?

My general point is that many 40k players are tired of the Heresy, tired of the same Choas vs Imperium plot lines.
Sales data from FW seems to suggest otherwise as well as the ever growing number of HH forces out there. The amount of HH books selling out of BL as well.

Personally the Chaos/Imperium conflict is the most interesting part about 40k. It is a battle effectively between humanity and itself. Chaos cannot survive without humanity but it is intrinsically at war with it. Chaos feasts upon the many emotions that humanity has, it subverts and destroys as well as empowers and blesses. The GG novels wouldn't work anywhere near as well if they were about fighting Orks or Eldar. There are many many sides to Chaos and they fight each other as much as they do the Imperium. Chaos has more stories to tell than say Orks for example as a human servant of Chaos, fallen to Gods is more relatable than a hulking greenskinned alien who has all the mental capacity of a mentally challenged inbred, the writers of the game have got more of handle on the "voice" of Chaos for this reason.
 

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Again, this tale was part of the Space Wolves Omnibus from roughly a decade ago.
The Omnibus did not include the "Battle of the Fang" novel now did it? Unless I'm mistaken this is Magnus's latest attempt to crush the Space Wolves (which he has been doing for some time now). The Omnibus, written a few years ago, does not include recent changes to Lore (Including the Heresy adaptationas that have redefined Magnus's role in the plot with Horus).

Did I miss anything? :p

Nope, I'm right:
No, your quite wrong freind. Just read many of the new Space Marine novels of late and you see the picture.
 
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