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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
SPOILERS


I reread the book and I must say there was a lot that really jiggled in my brain. Perhaps I might be thinking about stuff too much but dang... Abaddon's personality really made me scratch my head. When looking at Horus during pretty much most of the Heresy and looking at the most recent Abaddon I must confess a slight reaction went through my head several time. Could Horus be Abaddon? I guess the scene that really pushed this even more was that scene where they find Horus' clone. I looked over briefly at some parts I marked in Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames back in the past, and I just found these personalities to be switched in The Talon of Horus. Granted Horus doesn't say much, but during much of the Heresy I found Horus to really act like Abaddon in Galaxy in Flames.

Another part that got to me is that the Vengeful Spirit doesn't recall the last

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"...so similar that only by their weapons and wounds could I tell them apart. That, and their different smiles..."

"'Ezekyle.' His voice was a breath of relief and revelation. 'Its's you. It's you, my brother.'

"My son... my son."

....

"I am not your son."

Page 348-349

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This scene kind of showed a scene where both characters seemed very similar. There have been rumors that Abaddon was cloned from Horus. This gives a bit of evidence to that. In the scene we see Abaddon's strength and even the wording between the two sounded a bit weird. It could be maybe that Horus referred to his subordinates as "brothers" but it seemed a bit weird to me. It was only Abaddon's charisma during the novel that really reminded me of that Horus from Horus Rising.


The following scene was also interesting. Primarily because it was simply an educated guess that felt forced by both Khayon and Ashur simply to have an answer. However, it seemed pretty clear they didn't know the answer. It brings the question if Horus really died. There are actually a few cool questions to ask about the scene. Khayon seems to imply that the Vengeful Spirit itself exaggerates or has a biased view of the scenes. So in a sense these historical scenes/images are and could be manipulated... Lastly, if Khayon's explanation is true about the Emperor's ability to do such a thing it almost defies the Emperor's abilities. The Emperor came close to death against a huge Ork Warlord and throughout the Heresy had this power... yet... it only comes out at this point? Just seemed a bit strange if true.

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Chariz: Where is Horus?

That was a question I had asked myself more than once. AshurKai and I had spent many long hours seeking any spoor of the First Primarch's spiritual legacy. We had come to a unique conclusion.

Khayon: The Vengeful Spirit remembers all those that died aboard its decks. All who breathed their last breath within these halls honored thus.

Chariz: Then Horus should be here.

Khayon: I thought so as well, but the Emperor did not kill Horus. The Emperor annihilated him. The primal matter of his body was eradicated, and soul was removed from reality."

Chariz: Banished?

Khayon: Banishment implies existence elsewhere. It was... erased. Torn from existence, pulled apart into nothingness.

The Talon of Horus Page 367


I had a lot of interesting thing to look into about The Talon of Horus, but these really struck home strong to me at least. The Emperor's ability to do something of that magnitude makes me call BS, and perhaps these mages are simply speculating or Horus didn't die aboard the Vengeful Spirit, and perhaps the Long War is much buried in mystery than we previously thought it to be...
 

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In the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the Emperor demonstrates his ability for spiritual annihilation. Horus being his witness. It was the mech lord of Gorro, whom was holding off the Emperor with his 6 arms, until Horus could distract him and give his father time to charge up for the kill.

But I do wonder if Abbadon might serve as Horus's body double or standin. Luc Sedirae took a bullet meant for Horus in Nemesis. So I dont think it that far fetched that it was done as a means to discourage future assassins, if none could be sure it was the true Horus.

Perhaps Alpharius gave him the idea, due to his own switcheroo with Sheed Ranko.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The Emperor's ability to do something of that magnitude makes me call BS, and perhaps these mages are simply speculating or Horus didn't die aboard the Vengeful Spirit, and perhaps the Long War is much buried in mystery than we previously thought it to be...
The Emperor obliterating Horus's soul and removing him from existence has always been a part of the lore. It's certainly not something beyond the Emperor's capabilities.

Abaddon's charisma (from Talon) being similar to Horus's (from Horus Rising) is more down to inconsistent and odd portrayals of Abaddon by authors of the Heresy Series in my opinion.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The Emperor obliterating Horus's soul and removing him from existence has always been a part of the lore. It's certainly not something beyond the Emperor's capabilities.

Abaddon's charisma (from Talon) being similar to Horus's (from Horus Rising) is more down to inconsistent and odd portrayals of Abaddon by authors of the Heresy Series in my opinion.
What do you think about Horus' last moments not being presented in the Vengeful Spirit? Do you agree with Khayon and Ashur? Or do you think they are simply trying to fill in the explanation with speculation?
 

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The Emperor Protects
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No I fully agree with their reasoning. As CotE said, the Emperor utterly obliterating Horus, his very soul and warp signature has always been a part of the lore, Khayon and Ashur Kais thoughts are perfectly inline with this. And again as CotE said, it is well within the Emperors supposed power level, who I also hasten to add would have undoubtedly been able to tell if he was fighting Abaddon and not Horus.

As for the "I am not your son", I saw that only as Abaddon completely severing any ties he had with Horus, utterly denouncing him along with the fact that it was not truly Horus anyway.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No I fully agree with their reasoning. As CotE said, the Emperor utterly obliterating Horus, his very soul and warp signature has always been a part of the lore, Khayon and Ashur Kais thoughts are perfectly inline with this. And again as CotE said, it is well within the Emperors supposed power level, who I also hasten to add would have undoubtedly been able to tell if he was fighting Abaddon and not Horus.

As for the "I am not your son", I saw that only as Abaddon completely severing any ties he had with Horus, utterly denouncing him along with the fact that it was not truly Horus anyway.
Thats a fair analyzes. Abaddon's personality really struck home for me. It fits in the series to make sense of his ability in uniting the traitor legions.

Another thing that kind of got to me is the fact that Khayon says the traitor legions have bowed or submitted to Abaddon. I'm not sure this is very accurate. The Primarchs belong to the Chaos gods will.
 

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The Emperor came close to death against a huge Ork Warlord and throughout the Heresy had this power... yet... it only comes out at this point? Just seemed a bit strange if true.

The Emperor's ability to do something of that magnitude makes me call BS, and perhaps these mages are simply speculating or Horus didn't die aboard the Vengeful Spirit, and perhaps the Long War is much buried in mystery than we previously thought it to be...
I've always thought it inconsistent too that the Emperor could be traipsing around the galaxy being the grand warlord of the early GC, direct the Astronomican, spend quality time with his sons, pioneer unknow technologies, put the whoopass to Necron shards, but then have to worry about getting his ass kicked by an oversized bundle of green cyborg? I think the instances of the Emperor being 'saved' by Horus, on two occassions it would seem, are more leadership training for his son than any existential need by the Emperor. The Ullanor Campaign really allowed Horus to fluff his rep among his brothers and it provided an opportunity for the Emperor to be 'saved' by his son, and thereby earn the title of Warlord. While his brothers could argue about who would make the better candidate based on logistics, strategy, legion leadership, etc., it turned out to be awfuly convenient that only Horus could claim the laurels for actually saving his father in combat.
 

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The idea of Ullanor being the Emprah's way of boosting Horus seems a fair assumption. But it's also important to note that a lot of the old Horus Heresy lore doesn't always add up. And much of that is for two reasons: First, the Horus Heresy was originally supposed to be an event in the long long ago that people had mostly forgotten. Second, a lot of it comes from a time when it was olay to be named Angryon, Daemon prince of the Chaos God of being Angry, and it was okay to be named Mortarion and dress in a hooded robe and carry a scythe because you're the Daemon Prince of the Chaos God of Death and Decay, and it was okay to be named Lionel Johnson, Primarch of the Dark Angels who have a dark secret.
 

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And much of that is for two reasons: First, the Horus Heresy was originally supposed to be an event in the long long ago that people had mostly forgotten. Second, a lot of it comes from a time when it was olay to be named Angryon, Daemon prince of the Chaos God of being Angry, and it was okay to be named Mortarion and dress in a hooded robe and carry a scythe because you're the Daemon Prince of the Chaos God of Death and Decay, and it was okay to be named Lionel Johnson, Primarch of the Dark Angels who have a dark secret.
I agree fully with the first point; I'd be dow right disappointed if everything added up as HH is supposed to be 10000 year old history with all kinds of corruption and censorship taking place.
Does the second point mean the 80's or the 30k? ;)
 

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Bane of Empires
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What do you think about Horus' last moments not being presented in the Vengeful Spirit? Do you agree with Khayon and Ashur? Or do you think they are simply trying to fill in the explanation with speculation?
Yes, I'd say I agree with them. :)

Another thing that kind of got to me is the fact that Khayon says the traitor legions have bowed or submitted to Abaddon. I'm not sure this is very accurate. The Primarchs belong to the Chaos gods will.
The Daemon-Primarchs are obviously daemons, but as with all daemons, they maintain their own consciousness, desires, whims and individuality. They are not completely subservient to the will of their patron god. Regardless, Abaddon is the chosen of the Chaos Gods and the greatest Chaos champion, there is no reason why the gods would try to prevent their Daemon-Primarchs from aiding him.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The Daemon-Primarchs are obviously daemons, but as with all daemons, they maintain their own consciousness, desires, whims and individuality. They are not completely subservient to the will of their patron god. Regardless, Abaddon is the chosen of the Chaos Gods and the greatest Chaos champion, there is no reason why the gods would try to prevent their Daemon-Primarchs from aiding him.
This is one of the few instances I sensed some deviation from Khayon being a reliable narrator. It is pretty obvious from the beginning that it was meant to be so, however, in one instance he is saying the Primarch's are part of the Greater Game and then he is saying they serve Abaddon. It seems at times he is just blowing smoke.
 

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Bane of Empires
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This is one of the few instances I sensed some deviation from Khayon being a reliable narrator. It is pretty obvious from the beginning that it was meant to be so, however, in one instance he is saying the Primarch's are part of the Greater Game and then he is saying they serve Abaddon. It seems at times he is just blowing smoke.
Perhaps, after all we are only getting Khayon's perspective, so we cannot expect unambiguous factual material at all times. However, did he explicitly say that they "served" Abaddon? I can't remember.

We know from other sources (such as Codex: Black Legion) that Abaddon earned the favour and support of each Daemon-Primarch for the 13th Black Crusade and that they seem to be an integral part of Abaddon's plan to unleash the Crimson Path. However, IIRC Talon seemed to suggest that Abaddon gained the favour of the Daemon-Primarchs prior to the 1st Black Crusade (though I'm not sure if that was what was intended to come across in the text).

The Daemon-Primarchs are part of the Great Game, but the Great Game also spills out into reality and the Black Crusades (particularly the larger ones) would inevitably have a significant affect on the Game between the gods. It would make perfect sense for the Chaos Gods to want their minions to represent them during monumental conflicts in the material realm which could have a significant impact on the Great Game.
 
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