Reduce the Berzerker squads to 8 man, more effective, more fluffy, and frees up a good number of points. Also 4 troop choices at 1500 is fine for CSM, a rough guideline for us is a minimum of 1 troop choice for every 500 points in the army. I guess the preds are fine. I just don't care for them, ESP since loyalist ones are cheaper for the same stuff provided they don't take the TL lascannon turret. Would rather have Oblits or havocs with autocannons(which eat just about everything that's not AV 13 or 14, mind if you take autocannon havocs make sure you have enough melta in the army to deal with AV 13 & 14) myself. Ideally if you take one DP then take two. But I personally do just fine with one. I suggest putting icons of chaos glory on the normal CSM squads, it's a great icon and cheap. Well that's my two bits, definitely drop down to 8 man 'zerker squads and get IoCGs for the CSMs(one Berzerker will pay for both!). If you're set on the preds go ahead and give them a go.

Oherwise the list looks fine. Just trying to help you optimize without killing the list

 

if you take CC's advise above & trim 4 berserkers from your list you will find enough points to split your two 10 man CSM squads into 4 5 man squads. What this will accomplish is give you 6! troops choices, allow you to split your melta fire. This adds more vehicles, which is the best way to increase your survivability & also helps to ensure your melta gets where it is needed because a single immobilized result will stop one meltagun (25%) not two (50%)...

To consider: Your DP is the only non-meched unit on the table, this makes him a prime target for any and all anti-infantry firepower. While being T6 with a 3+/5++ means he is relatively safe weight of fire will bring him down.

 

just a thought, was having a look at battlescribe making my army for a game next week (gotta be an awkwardly versitile list facing space marines, Eldar, orks and tyranids on the same board) when this came to me, since my main enemy will be the space marines and tyranids, how does this sound.

HQ Daemon prince, Wings and MON.
I don't see anything wrong here.
Troops 10x CSM 2xMeltaguns, Rhino.
10x CSM 2XMeltaguns, Rhino.
Maybe replace one of these units with a flamer is you are worried about the Tyranids getting in close, this will ensure that you do get a couple of kills before you finish off a squad or termigaunts etc.
10x Khorne Berzerkers, skull champ with power fist, Rhino.
10x Khorne Berzerkers, skull champ with power fist, Rhino.
Drop them down to 7-8 man squads, they're more effective that way! I know I have faced them before and a 8 man squad anhilated my poor Plauge marines with just the sheer amount of hits they put out!
Heavy support
Predator, auto cannon and bolter sponsons.
Predator, Lascannon turret and bolter sponsons
Predator, Lascannon turret and bolter sponsons.
Get rid of the Predators and replace them with 2 defilers, a large ordinance blast weapon and get either a heavy flamer or autocannon depending on how you want to equip your defilers (personally I'd opt for the autocannon) and one Close Combat weapon. You have 72" range on the Battle Cannon and you'll take out big amount of targets with two defiliers on the field. Yes they'll become a target but your Rhino's will go unharmed for a turn or two.


all in all it works out at exactly 1500 points, and has what i see as a good mix of anti armour to take out dreadnoughts (my friend is running an armys worth) and Trygons/swarmlords. but still carrying enough bolters/heavybolters/autocannons to deal with the basic rank and file infantry.
Maybe with the points left over (if you have any) Invest in a squad of either Havocs or Oblitorators, I hear they're excellent at what they do so I'd take that into consideration!
i dunno am i being too focused on vehicles and not enough infantry here or is this genuinely a good idea??
Try to go for a balance approach so you have flexibility.
thanks

MrTrijan

That's all I can think of what to do with your list other than that you have a very solid list but if you want to go with the predators for sheer amount of firepower and shots, please be my guest. Just do one thing for me? Slaughter in the name of the Chaos Gods!

 

thanks for the assistace guys, from your notes i revised the list to.

HQ Daemon prince, Wings, MON, Doombolt (just cos i have points spare)

Troops
5x CSM with Melta gun (could be flamer if facing nids) rhino

5xCSM with melta gun rhino

5xCSM with melta gun rhino

5xCSM with melta gun rhino

8x Khorne Berzerkers, Skull champ with Powerfist rhino

8x Khorne Berzerkers, Skull champ with Powerfist rhino

Heavy support

Predator TL Las cannon turret and Heavy bolter sponsons
Predator TL Las cannon turret and Heavy bolter sponsons
Predator autocannon turret and Heavy bolter sponsons

i know theres a lot of people suggesting Obliterators over tanks but i dont like the idea of a 150 point two man team getting cut down with small arms fire, this way i can snipe off the worries to the tanks eg Devastator squads, Dreadnoughts, and then have three tanks sat invincible at the back of the board, (a situation that has happened to me several times due to not having a lot of Anti armour power in my infantry squads till recently, damn SM dreadnoughts)

personally i think that i have enough of a balance now to deal with elite and horde army alike, and the flexibility is there to swap out meltaguns for flamers and it will stay below the points threshold, and if i drop the doombolt or switch a LT las to an auto cannon i can swap out for all plasmaguns if need be, any more reccomendations you guys would make???


thanks
MrTrijan

 

Bear in mind those 2-man teams have 2 wounds each and a 2+/5++, they have major long range, they're not going down to small arms fire, not easy anyway, they're only goo down to special weapons, and a pred dies just as easy to a melta shot, only the oblit still might have a guy or two standing after. They do die easier to lascannons and plasma though. Nonetheless, try them in multiple squads if you've never used them that way, they're fantastic, if you don't like how they run at that point try the preds. Personally though I've had the best luck w/ Oblits and Defilers, haven't used the havocs much yet, but I expect good things

 

And it's easier to get cover for an Obliterator than a Predator, and you get Plasma Cannons.

Midnight

 

Personally, I find the best way to handle heavy support is to have two man squads of obliterators and defilers. They're both 150 points so really easy to chop and change and they're frankly the best heavy support options out there;

Its far easier to get an obliterator a cover save than it is a predator, the can climb in buildings to get better line of sight, they can always move and shoot their heavy weapons and they have a weapon for every enemy even down to hoards; orks and nids love twin linked flamers...

Also, if you go for defilers, they should always always have twin close combat weapons. Your battle cannon is ordnance and you always have that, so if you shoot it, you cant shoot anything else. And if you get a weapon destroyed and lose the cannon... fleet at the enemy and assault.

 

alright, i think im going to take the advice and get the obliterators instead of the predators, so my heavy support would be

2x Obliterators
2x Obliterators
2xObliterators

im just iffy about them ending up as lascannon platforms but ill see how they go, might proxy them first in friendlies see how they run before i put cash to.

 

Buy a box or two of terminators and convert. Is much cheaper and usually ends up looking better. That and Oblits only end up as lascannon platforms if you let them. I usually keep mine moving around, and I usually save one squad for deepstriking, they die quick, but they cause so much hurt. I don't get to use the TL meltagun or TL flamed often, but every other gun sees use. I actually usually don't fire lascannons after the first turn or two myself.

Oh and bear in mind. They will get shot and die. But so does everything else. That's why you take them in multiple squads. A very important thing for chaos players to learn is that our army ultimately lives on target saturation. We fill our side of the table with good units. And the opponent either has to focus fire, which means whatever's not getting shot at is free to go it's merry, slaughtering as they please. Or that they'll try to split fire across everything and very little on your side dies. Every unit worth taking in the codex doubles as a bullet magnet, so even if your Oblits get shot to pieces, they're still doing their job

 

thanks CC, however i think my modelling skills leave enough to be desired that ill just buy the Obliterators, but thanks again for your advice, much appreciated

thanks
MrTrijan

 

They're really not hard to convert, build terminators with a fist and a fun, glue guns in awkward places and then green stuff around them and in various places, take a toothpick or something and make pockmarks and whorls for the mutated fleshy bits, and voila, it's pretty simple and a good way to introduce yourself to using green stuff. But the metal ones look pretty good too. I'm just a mite stubborn

 

personally i thnk the metal ones look a lot better than anything i could churn out, other than that theres the company that was posted the other month HiTech i think it was? they have a cool obliterator version that works out slightly cheaper than GW (i think)..

on another slightly related note, what is your opinion on Daemon weapons, specifically the Blissgiver and plaguereaper, both of which are the bane of high toughness and non eternal warrior models alike, precicely like the power units of the tyranid army.
my friend is concidering a swarmlord and i need something that will drop into this list to help take care of him and i was wondering if it would be worth it to drop the Daemon prince for a Slannesh or nurgle marked lord with daemon weapon? i thought on these lines because the swarmlord, despite being more than abbadon has no Eternal warrior, on further inspection, none of the tyranids have it, and a slannesh Daemon weapon lord is slightly cheaper than a Daemon prince and still fits in the rhino.

thoughts??

thanks
MrTrijan

 

The Plaguebringer's fairly nice as it gives you a significant bonus against T4 opponents as well as tougher dudes. Of course, the best DW is the Manreaper, but the wielder has his own issues. The Blissgiver's good enough, I guess, but you face the gamble of a difficult 'to wound' roll against most targets.

In short, the Plaguebringer is more reliable as it'll put two or three wounds on a MC per turn, whereas the Blissgiver will do six or none.

My favourite Daemon Weapons, in order, are:
1. Manreaper
2. Drach'nyen
3. Undivided Daemon Weapon
4. Plaguebringer
5. Deathscreamer
6: Blissgiver
7: Bloodfeeder

Midnight

EDIT: Reading the post fully, I feel duty-bound to tell you that the chances of you successfully killing the Swarmlord in CC are very, very slim. The Swarmlord is a monster in combat, and he'll likely have Tyrant Guard to absorb your hits. At range, however, he's still a T6 3+ save guy with no invulnerable and 6" movement, so a cadre of Obliterators should be able to deal with him (although using a couple of Meltaguns to finish him never hurts).

 

Yeah, your best bet with any big bad tyranid thing is shooting, preferably lascannons and meltaguns, as well as autocannons and plasma guns(remember Obliterators have TL plasma guns, if you're close enough to double tap they'll do brutally, TL saves you from gets hot most of the time, then your 2+ saves you should one shot actually get 2 ones, and should that fail, well you have 2 wounds, so you're still alive). Use lash prince or princes to keep the swarmlord or other big nasty tyranids away from your dudes and into favorable firing positions.

Don't CC, they have better stats overall and lots of them have lash whips, which will ruin your day, and some of their HQs can get a psychic power that reduces you to weapon skill 1(OMG, Kharn ignores that! I just realised!), and still take lash whips, nothing short of TH/SS termies can handle that sort of thing well, and even they'll have issues. Save CC for their hordes.

And in general Blissgiver's a no go, there was recently a long discussion on the bolter and chainsword(when on a real computer I'll edit this and put a link) about why not to take it, and they got into lots of probability math to back up the practical. Personally not a huge daemon weapon fan for lords, your best bet is twin Lightning Claws(to make the most of i5), mark of khorne(with all the other marks being useful-ish), in power armor(so they can go in a rhino, also power armor version can technically take a TL bolter or a Combi-Weapon wih twin LC, I'm definitely converting m next lord to have a wrist mounted Combi-melta on one of his LCs). But princes are still better

 

thanks guys, i thought the idea was good but thinking about it with what you have said it does make a lot more sense to avoid melee combat, i had forgotten about the guard and the psychic powers (although i thought they were just on the broodlords and Zoanthropes) i definately think im gonna scrap the predator idea now and go for the obliterators, having had a much more indepth look at them they are the better choice.

many thanks
MrTrijan

 

Not certain, my buddy plays 'nids but I've never played against them, I always go against his 'crons. But I was reading the codex the other day, I thought the we debuff fell under the hive tyrant powers section. Either way, they tear us up in cc, even the Daemon Princes don't compare

 

im not entirely sure, i should know as the Tyranid army im facing used to be mine >.< but i think im going to take your advice and just stay away from the tyrant in CC.

i know im sort of ressurecting a dead thread now but ive been browsing the vids over at Miniwargaming.com and found a tactica for Plague marines, for the added versitility do you think it would be worth swapping out a Berzerker unit for a squad of Plague marines (trying to keep the points cost simmilar) i just think that if i ever take my army to a real game (myself and my friends always play anihilation without rolling for it) that they will be damn good for sitting on an objective because they have a lot of staying power. something the rest of my scoring units dont have a lot of, five man squads and a berzerker team arent the units with the longest longevity.

 

considering that the little things in nids armies whatever they're called can charge up to 18" and almost always get over 15" plague marines will probably do better unless they have poisoned weapons since you'll strip all their extra charging attacks off them, still strike first, and they'll then need 6's to wound you before you take an effectively 2+ save...

As for a hive tyrant, I dont find them that much of a threat, just lascannon them down when they get close , they will rarely get cover considering you need 50% coverage, so with some oblits, you can easily get some lascannon shots into them and then some TL plasma guns at close quarters.

 

Good plan - WS8, reduces your I, WS and BS to 1, T6, Strength 6, ignores armour saves, potentially causes ID. Tyrants are brutal in close combat.

But they're still only ten krak missiles away from going explodey into little bits (Five wounds, and they'll almost always have cover due to the Tyrant Guard being able to use area terrain instead of 50% coverage).

Midnight

EDIT: Those 'little things in Nid armies' are called Hormagaunts, and if you're going to take them you take them with Toxin Sacs for Poison (4+). Genestealers, though, are even more worrisome, as if you give them Adrenal Glands and Toxin sacs they'll outflank, charge you with 4 attacks each at WS6, I7, wounding you on 4s with re-rolls. Re-rolling wounds also means more Rends, so they'll rip you up pretty damn quickly.

 

Yeah, PMs won't be as good against 'nids, but they never stop being good, at the very lest they get 2 special weapons with only five models. And they're a great addition to a chaos list. Obviously meltaguns are a good choice. But plasma guns are especially nice with plague marines b/c w/ fnp they almost never die to gets hot(only happened the first time I ran them, but I had faith in them and they've done wonders for me)

 

to be honest i would have ran them with plasma just to break up the momotomy of having 4 meltaguns in the CSM squads already, i thought that plasma wouldnt get a FNP roll, i thought any weapon that ignores armour negates the FNP roll or is the Gets hot rule the exception?

 

If Gets Hot! ignored armour, then you'd be right.

As it is, you get both armour and FnP, so taking Plasma Guns is often a Good Thing. However, it isn't a Good Thing if you're basing an army around them - in that case, you really need the Melta and should have around 6 Meltaguns before you start handing out Plasmas.

@Caffeineated:
I never said Plague Marines were bad - you're still mowing down Hormagaunts like there's no tomorrow (for all their offensive output, Hormagaunts are still T3 with 6+ armour. They'll often have FnP as well, but only if they stay close to the army's Tervigons). I just thought it'd be worth warning people that Plague Marines, tough though they are, will still be ripped into little bits when assaulted by big units of buffed Hormagaunts or Genestealers.

Midnight

 

ah my mistake there i thought gets hot was essentially a plasma shot to the model who rolled it, unfamilliarity comes from not using them at all.

 

Lol, I never said you said they were bad. Just between all the poison and rending some of their benefits are negated fairly easily. I'm not trying to argue. I just like to clarify and cover things that haven't been said