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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the changes to switching flight modes with FMC in 7th edition, I think the Bloodthirster got hit particularly hard. The Greater Daemon that's supposed to be the melee powerhouse has to waste a turn switching from swooping to gliding, eat a turn of shooting protected by only a 3+/5++, and then make the charge. They simply waste too much time getting into combat. I don't think I'd ever take a Bloodthirster (other than because they're awesome, which is a good reason), instead of a Black Mace Nurgle prince.

I don't think it would be particularly game breaking to give Bloodthirsters a little something like this:

Winged Charge

The Bloodthirster may charge on the same turn it switches flight modes from Swooping to Gliding.

This is simply allowing the Bloodthirsters to behave as they did in 6th edition, where they were not particularly overpowered.

GW, if you want to sell Bloodthirsters again for 40k, FAQ this shit.
 

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I agree with that type of change... but then again it would have to be a universal one really because otherwise you have a load of Tyranid stuff that is also meant to be like that as well.
A better solution I think for the whole movement thing would have been to allow FMCs to gain all the bonuses that Swooping IF they also chose to Run that turn rather than shoot. This would allow them the 12" move + Run without losing the hard to hit bit.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Or you you could adapt to 7e and take Be'lakor allied in as CSM with 2 Bloodthirsters and cast Shrouding every turn, so the Bloodthirsters get a 2+ jink much like a Nurgle Daemon Prince, so can Glide with relative impunity. Plus Be'lakor can cast Invisibility on one, and you're technically not breaking a mono-god list because he's unmarked.

(not meaning to sound like "shut up and get with the times, granddad" or anything--just trying to point out that viable alternatives do exist).
 

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Well put Mossy... though TBH I tend to take a stand and hate using special characters in games. They aren't gunna show up to every petty squabble that happens, and I think this is especially true to Be'lakor, who for 1 is a DLC tax on the codex ATM, and is entirely unique and rarely heard from... yet appears all the time in games because he is so good.
 

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Rattlehead
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Well put Mossy... though TBH I tend to take a stand and hate using special characters in games. They aren't gunna show up to every petty squabble that happens, and I think this is especially true to Be'lakor, who for 1 is a DLC tax on the codex ATM, and is entirely unique and rarely heard from... yet appears all the time in games because he is so good.
I'd agree with this - there's also a factor of what, pray, would warrant two Bloodthirsters and Be'lakor getting together for a prolonged period?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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...and I think this is especially true to Be'lakor, who for 1 is a DLC tax on the codex ATM...
Says the fellow who advocates people take Forge World units to supplement their CSM whenever possible. :p


I'd agree with this - there's also a factor of what, pray, would warrant two Bloodthirsters and Be'lakor getting together for a prolonged period?
Skulls to take and carnage to wreak. The call of blood!

...it's hard to justify, yeah, agreed. At times like this, unfortunately, I find it best to mentally disassociate the background and the rule set/army composition, really...
 

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The FW books also have some shiney lore as well though... otherwise you would have to ban codexes... then again i do like the crimson slaughter supplement.
Anyway... having a tax on the codex wasn't the main point, even though it is annoying.

The annoying part is that he is meant to be a rare and special snowflake, who is seems gets to see more fights than Michael Buffer (AKA the "Let's Get Ready To Rumble!!" guy in boxing) because his rules are so good.
But as the first Mortal raised to be a Daemon Prince and having not aligned himself to any of the 4 powers he isn't probably hanging around as part of a group, and is more likely to flit around from group to group furthering his own goals (unless he is stalking Abaddon, as he seems to do).

As said though, I do dislike Special Characters in general as a principle. I don't tend to bring them to often without good reason (as in lore wise) and never to small games (though I like using some of them because of their rules, like Necrosius). I will however advocate their uses for armies continually as they are (like Be'Lakor) insanely powerful at times.
I guess the only get out clause for special characters that I do use at times, is that this isn't the special character, however he is basically someone who through whatever path lead them there has ended up similar, though in game terms is the same. Be'lakor however I think is entirely unique amongst his kind, with no other Daemon being similar to him, outside of passing resemblances, such as being a daemon and having a big sword.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
To each his own, I suppose.

I guess if you're a narrative type player and you see Be'lakor in EVERY game, I get it. Plus, it would be annoying simply to play against Be'lakor every game, regardless of lore.

I have used him a handful of times, and in the fluff of my army Be'lakor, Abaddon, and Krannon are all trying to gain an influence over the warband. Most often Kharn joins up simply because he loves killing stuff as much as I love watching him kill stuff. Not that I'd need a "reason" to run the army as different supplements the way C:SM use Chapter Tactics, but I guess it makes it slightly more fun.
 

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Even without shrouding just jink behind regular cover for that 2+ save. The Bloodthirster took a big hit with the nerf to smash as well as swoop, but I think it can still be made to work if you're playing on a table with the intended 25% terrain coverage

Regarding special characters, I always had the same attitude that they're not always going to be appearing in games (and why my specific army?) but why not just imagine your special character rules representing someone else? I'm going to use Be'lakor but in my head he isn't Be'lakor, just an undivided daemon prince.

With Kharn for instance you could simply paint up a World Eaters/Black Legion/Night Lord etc. chaos lord with a power axe and plasma pistol and use the rules for Kharn. As long as your fluff fits him being a great, if somewhat out of control, warrior with an axe and plasma pistol, why not? I like that sort of approach because my warlord can still be my warlord with his own fluff, but he happens to be represented on the table with the special rules of a particular existing character.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Regarding special characters, I always had the same attitude that they're not always going to be appearing in games (and why my specific army?) but why not just imagine your special character rules representing someone else? I'm going to use Be'lakor but in my head he isn't Be'lakor, just an undivided daemon prince.

With Kharn for instance you could simply paint up a World Eaters/Black Legion/Night Lord etc. chaos lord with a power axe and plasma pistol and use the rules for Kharn. As long as your fluff fits him being a great, if somewhat out of control, warrior with an axe and plasma pistol, why not? I like that sort of approach because my warlord can still be my warlord with his own fluff, but he happens to be represented on the table with the special rules of a particular existing character.
Agreed. I use this guy as Kharn, since I think the Kharn sculpt is ancient and not particularly cool:

 

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Rattlehead
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Regarding special characters, I always had the same attitude that they're not always going to be appearing in games (and why my specific army?) but why not just imagine your special character rules representing someone else? I'm going to use Be'lakor but in my head he isn't Be'lakor, just an undivided daemon prince.
This. I almost always ran a Special Character in 5th, and still use them fairly regularly in 7th, but I almost never use their model or think of them as that character in particular.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Even without shrouding just jink behind regular cover for that 2+ save.
Hmmm... nope. Jink is a 4+ save; most cover is a 5+ or 4+ save. Those don't stack. You need Shrouding (or Daemon of Nurgle) most often in order to get Shrouded...

(though Scatterfield random objectives, Night Fighting, and Conquerer of Cities warlord trait can also help, they aren't reliable)
 

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Hmmm... nope. Jink is a 4+ save; most cover is a 5+ or 4+ save. Those don't stack. You need Shrouding (or Daemon of Nurgle) most often in order to get Shrouded...

(though Scatterfield random objectives, Night Fighting, and Conquerer of Cities warlord trait can also help, they aren't reliable)
I don't know where I got that from :scratchhead:
 
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