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Get a drink, a snack and use the bathroom now, because this is a long bit of reading folks:

75hastings69 said:
I'm pretty sure LM, DE & Dwarf players WILL get a new book before 9th, but not sure about the rest.
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As far as I know (and have posted last August) the release order remains unchanged. Your bland short fat humans (tre Manor's Red Box Games do dwarfs sooooo much better!) should be with you early next year. Out of interest have these same stockists been asked the same of their Lizardmen range?
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Don't expect the policy of not updating existing plastics for WFB until there's nothing new to add to change any time soon. WFB just doesn't sell enough to justify it.
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I kind of get what you are saying, Harry is quite cryptic at times but IMO that's part of the enjoyment of his posts, I'm just not very good at the cryptic stuff :) like for example if I said trishaws has done a "frimi mgeah" and also some "tozas";)
So, new zoats and a fimir meargh eh? Thanks for that Hastings.
Harry said:
Hastings, ifyou please - the difference is going in drastic changes of rules system or approach to armybooks and their existance?
I did try to make it clear months ago ....
.... significant changes to the rules, the timeline and the approach to armybooks.
75hastings69 said:
He did too, the timeline thing I've also heard too. This would be an advantageous way perhaps of stopping production of individually named character models that don't sell big volumes.... perhaps all generic plastic lord kits in plastic with multiple options that appeared a while ago might be more sensible?;) that way they can represent you as the general on the battlefield not you playing someone else on the battlefield (who invariably gets killed by a single night goblin fanatic lol!)
And this way get rid of named characters - 500 years passed so some are dead and some are new phoenix kings etc so no reason to field them on the table?
Pretty much what I'm imagining.
Plus some random thoughts:
75hatsings69 said:
My understanding is that the cycle of each books life before update is too long which causes issues, however increasing the frequency of updating each book multiple times per edition is even worse... would you buy a HE book if it were to be updated in under a year? This coupled with a fading popularity of WFB (sales wise) and the feeling some of the races are perhaps too generic fantasy and not "warhmer" enough leaves them with choices of either dropping WFB altogether or making some serious changes to the way in which races are represented and in which army lists etc are sold. It HAS to be the latter to make back the £ spent on all the manufacture/design work for the best return possible for investors/shareholders. I suppose they 'could' have gone down the road of putting updates in WD but that would mean WD having actual content and wasting advertising/store listing space lol!!

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Popular armies will continue to receive more new units/kits/support whereas less popular armies (e.g. WE/Brets) may be 'lumped together' with their 'combined' force getting shared new kits etc. in all honesty what "warhammer" additions would any of you add to bretonnia army range???? big monster? No war machines? No, more horse types? No due to lack of variety etc. instead give them options to add say units from a wood elf force after all they are closely linked in the fluff. Then maybe when it comes time to add something new bret players would be happy to buy for example plastic WE stag riders as a MC choice and also pick up some existing WE kits to theme their army up more.

I feel the changes are going to allow much more freedom in building an "army" that will allow you to just take models from your collection and field them together as a force.... the only real concern then would be balance.... BUT if you're no longer going across 13 seperate publications produced years apart by different authors with different editions in mind it might not be such a big issue after all. Imagine if it was maybe 1 or 2 publications that could be updated almost annually, wouldn't that lead to better balance and also potentially bring more fun back to warhammer? just a thought
Avian said:
I can't get that to mesh with what you said about them being worried that players would not want to buy a book that was invalidated a year or so later.
Because you'd not be buying A (singular) army book that would be updated once a year for example to keep balance issues and additions/new units etc. you'd be buying potentially a book that covered lists for EVERY army and allowed you to make your own army once a year. So if you had 3 WFB armies you wouldn't need 6 books in a 2 year period only 2 books. The yearly thing was just an illustrative point that I added as an example not an accurate forecast. The current model of updating armies etc is too imbalanced leaving some races behind etc.

Also IMO a system that allows people to play WFB with models they want to buy from various ranges is a winner for GW. For example I know people who like the NEW HE models but won't buy them because they hate the core plastics, if there was a way of fielding (and indeed selling) models to people that they could buy everything new they liked and add it to other existing kits they like/own then this would be better for GW and if sales improve because of this potentially better for WFB (so long as they don't allow stupid SoM HE with Deamon allow type fluff breaking crap - which of course they probably will to sell more models).
I don't understand where you get your comparison from. An army book lasts about 5 years on average, so if you had three armies under the current system you would need 3 books every 5 years. However under your example system you would instead need 5 books every 5 years, which is definitely worse from a customer perspective and gets worse the less armies you collect.....
Did you read my earlier post? The issue is one of imbalance, different authors writing with different editions in mind. Also supporting each individual army as an entirely different product when some don't sell well is not the best use of time. The yearly thing as I've now said twice was only an example. If there was 1 or 2 books that were updated even every 2 years there would still be better balance, faqs could be added into the update as could new units. Right now you have to pretty much wait 4-6 years for your WFB to get updated or get a new unit, what if that changed to every year or two years? Instead of a block release of 4 new HE kits then nothing for 5 years what if you got 2 HE, 2 DE then the following month 2 skaven & 2 WoC? these were all featured in your 1 more regularly updated book. I think it would sell more by miles. For example WFB players who don't play DoC, WoC or HE probably haven't bought anything since September last year now imagine there's a release for your army every 3 months in fact a release for every army every 3 months its a much more steady income IMO.
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Ok these printed updates to update each army book and include FAQ/Errata etc. how does it get published/distributed? How much does it cost to print/store/transport/sell an update like this each time for EVERY army ON TOP of the above cost for each and every book? How does this streamline the process or make the cost better??? Answer it doesn't. It would be more costly and add more stuff to handle/print/store etc which is exactly what they want to head away from.

The answer is fewer books that contain more updated more often. Not the same number of books updated ever 4-10 years with 4-10 years worth of updates/FAQs/Errata etc as well to go with them.

I'm by no means the sharpest knife in the drawer (and I mean no offence by my next statement) but I can't see why some people can't grasp this concept?
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Mate im not nor are GW concerned if its cheaper for YOU im talking about it being cheaper for GW!!!! please try to understand that the WFB model as it is doesnt generate enough £ to allow it to exist in the way it does, it isnt making the returns on investment the 40k does, so it has to change. this means cutting costs and making the game more accessible and less rigid than it is now.

I'm not going to be drawn into debates about this any more, I kind of wish I'd not bloody posted about it now. Like it or not big changes are coming.
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If I were still into GW/WFB I think I'd be happy to defend it, I actually quite like the idea... what I don't like are kits made of finecast, plastic kits that are poorly sculpted and cost £30 for 10 infantry style troops, models that are similar to Pokemon and models that get named using the new roll on 2 tables to come up with a name I.e. I rolled a 4 and a 2 that gives us the "slaughter" and "brute", yea well I got a 1 and a 6 which gets us the "Death Mauler" etc.
Daigar said:
This all sounds like typical GW decisionmaking.

Kirby: Warhammer Fantasy is too expensive to get into. It hurts our sales. What do we do?

Employee 1: Lower the prices!

Kirby:...

Employee 2: Fiddle with the mechanics until it is viable to play smaller games!

Kirby:...

Employee 3: Let's force people to get all the army books they DON'T need!

Kirby: BRILLIANT!
You sir seem to get it entirely, it's about selling you stuff you don't need for armies you don't even collect, BUT also giving you the chance "in game" to make this fine. You could impulse purchase new stuff every month and feel no guilt as you could actually justify buying it.
Eldarin said:
Sales, of course. But it also makes much more sense.

It becomes orders of magnitude simpler to balance the game and it gives a opportunity to affect all the meta at the same time rather than incrementally change it one race at a time.

For example, when 8th rejigged the magic phase and we had a good few releases to bring books in line (or how WE playstyle became much harder overnight). If it was the case that all rules were updated at the same time then everything gets a fix at the same time. This can only be a benefit.

Not having one-army based releases allows them to space out each army so you aren't having feast/famine if you are a 1 army person and allows them to keep drip feeding you and making you(r army) feel loved.

The fact that they could have individual background books for each army then also allows them to sell you another book, but also allows them to dig deeper into each army and really pull you in to the universe.

Finally, some variation of the 40k allies system, however it is implemented, is also good. Don't like it? Ignore it. Want to play around with your own combinations? Go nuts. It also allows the same sampling and then growing into a new army.

All in all, it sounds promising.
You win the thread.

I tried to say over a period of 4-10 years with different authors writing for different editions there was too much imbalance, if it all comes pretty much at once there's more balance, then people may be drawn to try another army that currently they wouldn't because under 8th they are unbalanced/broken until the army book gets updated in x years!

Finally! Thank you so much for posting
Avian said:
While I do think that allies has some good potential to it, by allowing too much to this they are running the risk of watering down the imagery of the game and thus increasing the blandness they apparently feel is hurting it. 40k has shown the power of strong, reasonably original imagery and I doubt you'd get the same effect with Mishmashhammer.
You will get no argument from me on this front Tarj. As I wrote previously the SoM HE & Darmons for me destroyed everything that 25 years of fantastic fluff stood for, all in the name of sales. If its "governed" in a manner it could be great, if not?? Well...

Thing is are GWs target market actually that bothered about fluff? They can always peddle their fluff elsewhere for extra £
Avian said:
Never mind the fluff, I'm surprised to hear that game balance being presented as a major reason for the shakeup....
My forecast is that GW use this as a selling/marketing point, much like the ludicrous claims of finecast. The truth is there is only one reason for the changes .... profitability.
Harry said:
Is one way of looking at it.
The other way of looking at it is ... the reason for the changes is to try and save a much loved game that has become unprofitable.
It's not really in "financial trouble" it just isn't making the returns the would like on their investments. 40k tau models couldn't even stay in stock to fulfil orders (well that's not exactly true.... it was actually the printed boxes that ran out hence why some people received models in white citadel boxes) that never happens with any WFB release.
Still in the land of the living? Okay, the short version:

Fantasy is changing drastically. Brace for Nerd-Rage in 2015.
 

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Interesting, though all unverified of course.

If they do to to the Privateer Press system of releases (release a little bit for each faction every year), i wonder if they'd pick up on the finer points that make it work, or fark it all up. The things which make pp's system work are firstly, that you don't have to buy the yearly books (you get the rules with the models, or get the rules updated for free if you bought a faction deck in Warroom, or read the full stats previewed in No Quater magazine, or read about what a model does on battle college), and secondly that the releases don't aim to ramp up the power level to sell models (while there have been good releases, the vast majority have been right in the middle of the power curve). That way, new players don't feel intimidated by having to buy a dozen books to get access to the full range, and older players don't feel under pressure to keep updating constantly to keep your army viable, both of which would make Fantasy less attractive to players.

Basically, if fantasy were to go to cross-army releases, it would require changes in it's core buisness practices in order to actually be a positive for the game... And I just don't see that as likely.
 

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its two years away, what ever the changes are we can worry about them then, Warhammer fantasy isnt as popular as 40k, but its far more popular than it gets credit for.
Yep, 4th most popular non-collectible miniatures game (after X-wing shot past it last quarter, because of its brand and wider market) is not to be sneezed at, but I would suggest it's possibly lagged a bit compared to other games since 8th Ed was released (which would be why GW would be looking at a shakeup, assuming it actually was going to shake things up).
 

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Interesting, though all unverified of course.
Well naturally. The thing is that these rumours are coming from Hastings and Harry which give them a fairly high chance of being correct, and this is about when they'd be working on the rulebook for 9th Ed Fantasy to ensure a mid-2015 release, hence why I posted it instead of ignoring it.

If they do to to the Privateer Press system of releases (release a little bit for each faction every year), i wonder if they'd pick up on the finer points that make it work, or fark it all up. The things which make pp's system work are firstly, that you don't have to buy the yearly books (you get the rules with the models, or get the rules updated for free if you bought a faction deck in Warroom, or read the full stats previewed in No Quater magazine, or read about what a model does on battle college), and secondly that the releases don't aim to ramp up the power level to sell models (while there have been good releases, the vast majority have been right in the middle of the power curve). That way, new players don't feel intimidated by having to buy a dozen books to get access to the full range, and older players don't feel under pressure to keep updating constantly to keep your army viable, both of which would make Fantasy less attractive to players.
Actually it seems that Fantasy might be going 3rd Ed Fantasy (one book to rule them all) from what has been said.

Basically, if fantasy were to go to cross-army releases, it would require changes in it's core buisness practices in order to actually be a positive for the game... And I just don't see that as likely.
1 book is cheaper to make than 15, and GW did this sort of thing in 3rd Ed WFB (they have been making a number of almost "retro" moves lately in resurrecting the past) so I won't say it's unlikely, especially if they're trying to resurrect a system that's dying because the game doesn't bring in new bodies like it should. You can start an average 40k army for less than $500 USD (even less if you play lower than 1.5K, or purchase from ebay), your adverage Fantasy army can run you $600-800 USD, it's not really a "newbie friendly" system because of it.

its two years away, what ever the changes are we can worry about them then, Warhammer fantasy isnt as popular as 40k, but its far more popular than it gets credit for.
It's still interesting to hear what's being discussed behind the scenes (that is when reliable sources bring it along), as these are the things that will shape the game. It might be the thing to interest people to jump back into the game, plus it's worth discussing.

Yep, 4th most popular non-collectible miniatures game (after X-wing shot past it last quarter, because of its brand and wider market) is not to be sneezed at, but I would suggest it's possibly lagged a bit compared to other games since 8th Ed was released (which would be why GW would be looking at a shakeup, assuming it actually was going to shake things up).
From what I was reading of those posts it pretty much came down to internally Fantasy is losing ground and they feel that some drastic changes will need to be done to either stabilize it, or put it back on a path of growth.
 

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From what I was reading of those posts it pretty much came down to internally Fantasy is losing ground and they feel that some drastic changes will need to be done to either stabilize it, or put it back on a path of growth.
I hope this holds damned true.
True LoS is ok I guess but pre-measuring and random charges can go fuck itself. That alone ruined WHFB for me at least.
40k was always the "gung-ho" system of the 2 where as fantasy was the "sneaky manoeuvring system" where eye measuring and well thought through moving was king. Needless to say its not any more...





Before some nifty dude/dudette complains about spells its still far off from 5th ed on the power curve.
Oh the joy of a total power Curse of Years that killed(yes, not wounded) models on 5+ on the first roll and then you got another roll on the start of the enemy magic phase on 4+ before he could do shit about it.
Or when a Skaven player at the club killed 47 Empire models with 1 Plague, this included serious cherry picking with General, Wizard Lord, BSB and several other neat choices.
Nifty moving (aka kind of suicudal if it failed) with the Wizard Lord let you send the huge Purple Sun of Xerxes template 4d6 inches through several units and it killed touched models on 3+.
Most fun of all however was the great fun combo Crimson Bands and "whatthefuckthecometspellwascalledbackintheBrightMagicDeck". You can not move, and anything touched by this nice 3 inch radius template DIES regardless of everything if it pops down. If you timed this proper you got 3 rolls before the enemy could try to run away regardless of dispelling crimson bands...oh yea, you were forced to dispel each meteor token separately, and you got one each time the comet failed to show up...

Did I mention both players cast spells on both players magic phase back then?
I guess I should add that...
 

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Actually it seems that Fantasy might be going 3rd Ed Fantasy (one book to rule them all) from what has been said.



1 book is cheaper to make than 15, and GW did this sort of thing in 3rd Ed WFB
three to four books, they are aiming for 3 as I currently understand
 

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I think the aim is more allies being used (in a similar way to 40k now) and not so much a mish mash of armies,
at the same time I don't think we're going to see people having to ally up.

I'm not so sure it's anything drastic it's more a way of having less to update and for it to be easier for people to buy new flavours of resin :wacko:

Either way, it's easier to manage than 15. Also I appreciate the input as you've added some addition credence to this rumour.
exactly, you only have to remember the dark eldar anger and the current leaping on any bad rumour ever from SOB fans to see what happens when you don't get round to updating an army.

and you are welcome
 

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exactly, you only have to remember the dark eldar anger and the current leaping on any bad rumour ever from SOB fans to see what happens when you don't get round to updating an army.

and you are welcome
I -am-a Sisters player and I resemble/resent that remark! :laugh:

Seriously though, there are a LOT of bad Sisters rumours out there.

I'm thinking the new approach with allow them to better handle the way Fantasy is produced and sold thus making it cheaper to update (3 books every 5 years, some supplements in the mean time which later get rolled into the new books...). Fantasy has been in a downward spiral since 8th so this will hopefully spice things up.
 

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...Fantasy has been in a downward spiral since 8th so this will hopefully spice things up.
Nothing produces demands of change like severely dropping sales, its probably a rough wakeup call but hey, its a needed one.
Pretty models alone wont keep a game system afloat...
 
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