Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
341 - 360 of 646 Posts

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts


Can't figure out why the armour modifier for axes and swords have reversed in this edition. It is nice to see that the axe no longer suffers an initiative penalty though. Same with power fists. I tended not to run them in my SWs because I hated the idea of a CC specialist fighting at I1.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,028 Posts


Can't figure out why the armour modifier for axes and swords have reversed in this edition. It is nice to see that the axe no longer suffers an initiative penalty though. Same with power fists. I tended not to run them in my SWs because I hated the idea of a CC specialist fighting at I1.
Very good! A step forward towards armies of Khorne Berzerkers being properly equipped with all Chainaxes, a Berzerker with a Chainsword is just wrong! Like seeing an Ork with a Splinter Rifle.


LotN
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
To make power swords a viable option. The axe already has the strength boost and now no more initiative penalty, if it had the better save modifier than you'd never see power swords getting taken.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ntaw and Mdauben

·
Closet Dictator
Joined
·
3,413 Posts


Can't figure out why the armour modifier for axes and swords have reversed in this edition. It is nice to see that the axe no longer suffers an initiative penalty though. Same with power fists. I tended not to run them in my SWs because I hated the idea of a CC specialist fighting at I1.
I like this, it is actually more real world, a sword is pointy and goes far in, hence better ap, the axe confers more blunt force trauma hence the S bonus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
Trading AP for Strength makes sense in the absence of Initiative, for all the reasons pointed out. It's worth keeping in mind that rules are about in-game balance and not real-world effects.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
Meh. The sword has a better rend because they wanted to keep them at a similar price level points-wise. If it absolutely has to make more sense to you, just assume the power field is easier to shape for the sword and thus more effective. It's just like how a Flamer can now suddenly hit a single target multiple times or completely whiff when focused on a tightly-packed squad. :)

TBH, the interesting one is the Maul - it has been the redheaded stepchild of the power weapons for a while, but with these rule changes, especially with lighter vehicles at T6... I could see a lot of them appearing on tables.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mdauben

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
TBH, the interesting one is the Maul - it has been the redheaded stepchild of the power weapons for a while, but with these rule changes, especially with lighter vehicles at T6... I could see a lot of them appearing on tables.
Most vehicles had a rear armour of AV10 and a S6 maul attack would be glancing on a 4 and removing a hull point no question, not to mention the potential for a penetrating hit and causing further damage. In 8th, that same S6 attack wounds a T6 vehicle on a 4+ and the vehicle gets an armour save as well as having more wounds than it did hull points.

I don't think mauls are any better than they were before unfortunately. Maybe even worse against vehicles.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,976 Posts
If strength is to be a factor in cc with additional rend on top of weapon rend, then the maul could yet find favour in certain armies.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
I don't think mauls are any better than they were before unfortunately. Maybe even worse against vehicles.
Mauls are going to be a middle of the road weapon; against a T6, W8 vehicle with a +4 save it takes about 40 marine maul attacks to kill, compared to 43 from an axe and 36 from a sword.

This is more apparent against vehicles like the knight errant, with its T8, W24 and +3 save. There it takes 210 maul attacks, whereas the axe only needs 160 but the sword needs 260.

The maul is better against enemies with lower saves, against marines 10 attacks only does an average of 2.2 kills (vs 3 and 2.9 respectively.) However against units like guardsmen those 10 attacks cause 3.7 kills (vs 3.7 and 4.5.) The maul only starts to pull away against enemies with +5 or +6 saves, where the extra -ap of axes and swords means next to nothing (especially against T3 where mauls are wounding on 2's.)


Overall mauls got 'worse' against vehicles but that has more to do with vehicles now being more survivable and not mauls being less effective. Its easier to strip 2-3 hull points off a vehicle than 8-24 wounds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,323 Posts
If strength is to be a factor in cc with additional rend on top of weapon rend, then the maul could yet find favour in certain armies.
I'm assuming that you calling it rend instead of AP is from AoS and that AoS has a rend modifier based on the strength of the attack, so there is some precedent for this statement. Does the target's toughness not effect that modifier at all or does a higher toughness only make the wound roll harder to pass?

If they do something like this in 40k it would go a long way to making the maul a more effective weapon against vehicles (though I'm not entirely sure it needs to be).

Overall mauls got 'worse' against vehicles but that has more to do with vehicles now being more survivable and not mauls being less effective. Its easier to strip 2-3 hull points off a vehicle than 8-24 wounds.
My point exactly, though I find the dice gods will always laugh at the math us mere mortals come up with when it comes time to roll :laugh:
 

·
Closet Dictator
Joined
·
3,413 Posts
Im really liking whats coming out, you shouldn't be relying on melee weapons to kill vehicles, but rather to finish them off. I'm looking forward see what they will do with melta bombs and krak grenades. However if you want a tank/beastie killed las cannons are quite vicious in this edition, a predator annihilator can theoretically pump out 18 wounds on a target! Now that land raider terminus looks viable
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
The maul is better against enemies with lower saves, against marines 10 attacks only does an average of 2.2 kills (vs 3 and 2.9 respectively.) However against units like guardsmen those 10 attacks cause 3.7 kills (vs 3.7 and 4.5.) The maul only starts to pull away against enemies with +5 or +6 saves, where the extra -ap of axes and swords means next to nothing (especially against T3 where mauls are wounding on 2's.)
I think there's a math error happening here somewhere... Mind you, I think the main mistake here is the assumption I am a Space Marine player and using base S4 :grin2: NB: We're both assuming that S vs. T still works out mostly similar as before I believe, though I don't think we've seen the official table for it yet.

Here's my math, please point out any errors. Excuse the layout, can't find how to make tables nowadays... :)





EDIT: Point of order if we discuss this further, we can actually leave the WS out of it for this edition, which would've saved me some numbers as the same weapon will ALWAYS perform best whether I'm using a WS3 S3 Guardsman or a WS4 S3 Celestian.

EDIT 2: Attacking Battle Sisters with S3 units is best done with Axes, S4 units the Power Sword equals but does not exceed them.

EDIT 3: Moved math into a spoiler as it was WRONG.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Page 18 or 19 of this thread (post 185), Khorbes Fist quoted how to wound works now. No 10x10 table like previous editions, now if your strength is double or greater the targets toughness you wound on a +2, if S is simply greater than T it's a +3, if they are equal it's +4, S is less than T is +5 and S is half or less T it's +6.

Simpler and faster, and how I went about getting the numbers I did.

Using the strength of a battle sister, and assuming they are going to be WS+3 like marines you'd have:
Maul: 4.5 wounds, 3.7 unsaved wounds
Axe: 4.5 wounds, 4.5 unsaved wounds
Sword: 3.4 wounds, 3.4 unsaved wounds

In my previous post when I mentioned doing better against guardsmen, for some reason I gave them a +4 save instead of +5. Just replace guardsmen in my post with firewarriors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
Page 18 or 19 of this thread (post 185), Khorbes Fist quoted how to wound works now. No 10x10 table like previous editions, now if your strength is double or greater the targets toughness you wound on a +2, if S is simply greater than T it's a +3, if they are equal it's +4, S is less than T is +5 and S is half or less T it's +6.

Simpler and faster, and how I went about getting the numbers I did.

Using the strength of a battle sister, and assuming they are going to be WS+3 like marines you'd have:
Maul: 4.5 wounds, 3.7 unsaved wounds
Axe: 4.5 wounds, 4.5 unsaved wounds
Sword: 3.4 wounds, 3.4 unsaved wounds

In my previous post when I mentioned doing better against guardsmen, for some reason I gave them a +4 save instead of +5. Just replace guardsmen in my post with firewarriors.
Thanks :)
So, since we can leave off WS as a concern for weapon effectiveness, starting with 10 hits:

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Guardsman(T3, Save 5+)
Maul: S5 vs T3 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 6+ for 5.555 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T3 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save NA for 6.667 unsaved wounds
Sword: S3 vs T3 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save NA for 5 unsaved wounds

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Battle Sister(T3, Save 3+)
Maul: S5 vs T3 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 4+ for 3.333 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T3 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 5+ for 4.444 unsaved wounds
Sword: S3 vs T3 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save 6+ for 4.1667 unsaved wounds

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Marine (T4, Save 3+) 10 hits
Maul: S5 vs T4 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 4+ for 3.333 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T4 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save 5+ for 3.333 unsaved wounds

Sword: S3 vs T4 (lesser) -> 5+ for 3.333 wounds, save 6+ for 2.778 unsaved wounds

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Marine in Terminator armour (T4, Save 2+) 10 hits
Maul: S5 vs T4 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 3+ for 2.222 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T4 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save 4+ for 2.5 unsaved wounds
Sword: S3 vs T4 (lesser) -> 5+ for 3.333 wounds, save 5+ for 2.222 unsaved wounds

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Ork Boy (T4, Save 6+) 10 hits
Maul: S5 vs T4 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save NA for 6.667 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T4 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save NA for 5 unsaved wounds
Sword: S3 vs T4 (lesser) -> 5+ for 3.333 wounds, save NA for 3.333 unsaved wounds

Battle Sister (or Guardsman) vs. Ork Boy in ' Eavy Armour (T4, Save 4+) 10 hits
Maul: S5 vs T4 (greater) -> 3+ for 6.667 wounds, save 5+ for 4.444 unsaved wounds
Axe: S4 vs T4 (equal) -> 4+ for 5 wounds, save 6+ for 4.167 unsaved wounds
Sword: S3 vs T4 (lesser) -> 5+ for 3.333 wounds, save NA for 3.333 unsaved wounds

So my mistake with the To Wound mostly boosts the Axe's performance - though against Marines (still the most common foe) the Maul keeps up and gets better as saves get worse. Sword still not really worth taking, which is annoying as most models come with it standard...

EDIT: Snuck the Terminator in there
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fallen

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
Lock your safety harness and keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle, folks – today we’re looking at Transports.

Loads of you have been asking on our Warhammer 40,000 facebook page for a few more details on this, so we’ll see what we can do to answer your questions.

Transports have some pretty fundamental changes in the new Warhammer 40,000. Previously, they were a bit of a mixed bag, and while usually quite a good tool to keep your troops alive and get them across the battlefield, a lot of the time, their main purpose ended up being just to soak up the first volley of enemy heavy weapon shots meant for the squad inside.

In the new Warhammer 40,000, Transports are almost universally, better: they are more durable, faster, many are better at shooting, and all have fewer limitations on the units disembarking from them. For example, a unit disembarking from a Transport is no longer prevented from charging that turn.

Units now disembark at the start of the Movement phase, before the Transport moves, but can then move, shoot and fight normally in that turn. This opens up loads of tactical options for both shooting and combat themed armies, especially now that multiple units can share a single Transport up to its capacity.

For a combat army, this will mean you will need to get your Transports where you need them in the previous turn for maximum effect. One tactic we’ve seen used to good effect already is to then use the Transport to charge in alongside the unit into combat!

We’ve seen already that vehicles can charge and fight in melee like all other models, and while they might not be the kings of close combat, they are generally pretty durable and can soak up the firepower of enemy units in overwatch before their potentially more fragile passengers make it in. This is particularly handy with units like Wyches, Ork Boyz and Harlequins, to whom overwatch fire can prove especially deadly.

Here’s an example, of one such Transport: the Harlequin Starweaver.



You can see already that this it is likely to be considerably more durable than it is today, and the skill of the Harlequin pilots even makes it not too shabby in a fight. This being open-topped too, the passengers in it can shoot normally even after that huge 16″ move, and still shoot pistols into units that are in combat with their Transport in their own Shooting phase!

It doesn’t all go Transports’ way though. Being inside an exploding vehicle is still bad news. Models inside a wrecked Transport will now die on the roll of a 1. This isn’t so bad for units like Orks and Guardsmen, who were used to taking a few casualties when losing their Transport, but is going to hurt a bit more for elite units, so be sure to put valuable units in your most durable Transports, like Land Raiders and Battlewagons.

So, lots to take in there – expect a lot of Transports to play a much bigger part in the new edition.

We’ll be back on Monday to kick off the week with some news from Ultramar.
Assaulting from standard vehicles is big. I think we'll see a huge amount of razorbacks back on the table. Around here they've been absent since 5th Ed. I'll also be interested to see what they do with land raiders to make them stand out from the crowd now that they'll lose a little of what makes them special.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Tyranids
Tyranids have been a part of the fabric of the Warhammer 40,000 universe for decades. For me, I loved them from the first time I saw a Genestealer model* many moons ago. Reading the fantastic stories about them in the books and imagining the overwhelming power they brought to bear was incredible and really brought them to life for me. They scour entire galaxies of life, absorbing it all and using it to create even more and deadlier Tyranid bioweapons. The terror they inspire is primal: the fear of being eaten!

On the tabletop, Tyranids have had their ups and downs. Their most recent iteration has struggled to keep pace with some of the more powerful armies, and for many Tyranids players, the Winged Hive Tyrant with dual devourers has been the unit carrying all the weight of the faction on his back (its wings must be pretty tired!). I am here to tell you, that all of that changes in the new edition.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t start out with my all time favourite Tyranid unit: the Swarmlord. He is an absolute beast now, as he should be! With a Toughness value of 6, 12 Wounds, a 3+ save and a 5+ invulnerable save (increased to a 4+ invulnerable save in melee) he is not easily taken down. This can be further enhanced by casting Catalyst on him (and did I mention he’s a potent Psyker, too?) to give him a 5+ save vs Wounds suffered.



But it’s not just defence, oh no, Mr. Swarmlord brings the pain in combat as well. With a base of Strength of 7, 8 attacks, hitting on a 2+, with an AP value of -3 and D6 damage a pop, the Swarmlord can lay low even Titanic units in a single round of combat. Truly a fearsome adversary.

However, his ability that I have found to be most useful is Hive Commander, which allows a friendly unit to move in the Shooting phase. This is incredibly powerful for the sudden added mobility. For Hormagants, with their blisteringly quick Movement of 8″, this means a potential 16″ move before attempting a charge. Or he could simply use it on himself and move up to 18″…

That’s just one combo out of dozens, too!

Genestealers, who are the iconic Tyranid unit in my eyes, are absolutely lethal. Not only are they incredibly fast with an 8″ Move themselves, they can also charge after advancing. With their shiny new 5+ invulnerable save, they’re also hardy, and I often cast Catalyst on them too, because I am a mean, mean man.

But to really crank the power up to 11 with Genestealers, take them in units of 10 or more to trigger their Flurry of Claws special rule, bumping them up to 4 Attacks each. Combo this with the Broodlord (who is also, utterly deadly in melee) to also give them a +1 to hit in the Fight phase. That means a full unit of 20 has 80 Attacks hitting on a 2+. With their Rending Claws – which bump up to AP -4 on a 6 to wound – very few units in the game can withstand a full strength Genestealer charge!

There’s so much to be happy about as a Tyranid player it is hard to cover it all. But we have a few more tidbits for you all before we close this article.

For one, due to the changes in the way damage works, medium sized Tyranids are much more enjoyable to play. A Tyranid Warrior with 3 Wounds and a Toughness value of 4 is so much more durable than he was, that it’s incredible. I’ve been using them as midfield Synapse providers who are both good with close range shooting and in melee.

And Synapse, hmm, what type of benefit does that provide? Nothing less than immunity to morale for friendly Tyranids units within range. Bring on the hordes of little gribblies!

And lastly, just because I can’t help myself: I think Pyrovores may be one of the most improved units in the new edition, and a unit of them in a Tyrannocyte has won me many a game!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
Assaulting from standard vehicles is big. I think we'll see a huge amount of razorbacks back on the table. Around here they've been absent since 5th Ed. I'll also be interested to see what they do with land raiders to make them stand out from the crowd now that they'll lose a little of what makes them special.
Huh. Not sure why people wouldn't be bringing Razorbacks over there - they're honestly pretty good units. Rhinos are meant to get close to the enemy, so the handful of points to slap a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer on a Rhino to imitate the Sisters' glorious Immolator seems like a no-brainer.

As for Land Raiders standing out from the crowd... Even if they don't get a special rule for the assault ramp, the vast majority of weapons on a Land Raider is twin-linked (all but the Redeemer's Flamestorm Cannons) so that's nearly double firepower on them. They're going to be fantastically dangerous, presumably in addition to being fantastically tough.
 
341 - 360 of 646 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top