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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154786 is the inspiration for the thread your currently in.

From the 7th Edition rules:

The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters.


That is it as far as I can tell in regards to the rules dealing with unbound armies. The allies matrix relations apply but beyond that I do not see any restrictions.

The question in that thread I listed at the top was if a Eldar based Unbound list could use Dark Eldar Transports.

The way I read the rules I want to say yes they could, without having anything else from the DE Codex.

If you wanted to do a Unbound army with 5 Ork Trukks, 15 SM Rhinos, and two Tau Devilfish, it would be 'legal' by the unbound rules. You would just have to nominate one of them to be a Warlord and be aware of how the allies system would impact them.

What do the rest of you guys think?
 

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I would suggest that it is not allowed, because even Unbound armies use the points system.

In order to pay points for something, then you have to field it legally from it's codex entry. Given that you cannot purchase a dedicated transport without also purchasing a unit, then I don't think you can run them on their own, in the same way that you cannot field a plasma gun and a missile launcher (another unit option) without the base model or unit that they were purchased for.

So while it does say "anything" then I believe that you still need to adhere to the internal structure of the codex, otherwise you could potentially argue for the legality of the Land Raider that I glued 8 Assault Cannons onto. It's a model in my collection, after all - but it doesn't follow a codex entry and therefore is not allowed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
A DT is a unit type though, it has a set point cost and set upgrades. In most of the codex DT sections, it states that they do not take up a Force Org but function as separate units.
 

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A DT is an upgrade for a unit. So you cannot purchase a DT unless you have a unit to purchase it for. Like Sethis says, you also cannot have a Plasma gun hovering around without a wielder.
It seems pretty clear cut to me.
 

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I guess it depends how they are bought. If you have on unit lists saying "This unit can buy a XXXX for the unit" anywhere then no it cant be purchased unless a unit that has that rule is able to take it. However if it is like a Falcon Gravtank that is just able to be bought without needing to be attached to another squad then go for it.
 

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you guys are clearly missing the point of unbound by the looks of it
as its quoted above
The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters.

if someone wants to field an army of DT what does it really matter? its just gonna be for fun at the end of the day, wanna field a 8 assualt cannon land raider, i say go ahead, make it a feature of the game, just make sure you pay a good amount of points for it and crack on with a game, if it wipes the board, dont play it again, if it dies first turn try again, its a game have fun with it.

personally i think GW is trying to undo years of making 40k too anal and straight laced and saying , dust off your imaginations and have some fun with it,fuck balance,fuck competative and tourneys,have a beer and a smile and crack on



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Fine.. if that is the way you are playing bits and kits... then I will play a 500pt game with 55 horrors... not in their min of 10 models, but all in 1s (that's how they used to be in kill teams until rule changed)... that's 55 +d6 psy dice... :) awesome!!! oh and they can summon units of 10 so don't worry :) (for reference the kill team rules allowed brotherhood of psys to all count as individuals as every mob did. And could cast 2d6 shots at WC1, so with the 22 you could get for 200pts you had 44-264 shots a turn)

That is why you still have the limitations. Also stops things like people loading out squads to have full heavy/special weapons. Or say with Eldar working out that actually my guardian defender squad is now going to have 5 scatter lasers or bright lances... Or multiple Crimson Hunter Exarch.
 

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Fine.. if that is the way you are playing bits and kits... then I will play a 500pt game with 55 horrors... not in their min of 10 models, but all in 1s (that's how they used to be in kill teams until rule changed)... that's 55 +d6 psy dice... :) awesome!!! oh and they can summon units of 10 so don't worry :) (for reference the kill team rules allowed brotherhood of psys to all count as individuals as every mob did. And could cast 2d6 shots at WC1, so with the 22 you could get for 200pts you had 44-264 shots a turn)

That is why you still have the limitations. Also stops things like people loading out squads to have full heavy/special weapons. Or say with Eldar working out that actually my guardian defender squad is now going to have 5 scatter lasers or bright lances... Or multiple Crimson Hunter Exarch.
i dont play 500 points ,thats for amateurs :p , besides if i did play 500 points and you turned up with 55 horrors so what? if you have paid the points i wouldnt mind you fielding them, its about opening your self up to change, i have kicked around this game since before we even had codex books and FOC etc and back in the day you were much more free to pick and choose what you wanted to put on the board, if your 55 horrors bummed me off the table in two turns, so what? i like a challenge.

I say no limitations, field however you want, throw the codex restraints out the window and have a game how you want it, if you want a 10 man 5 scatter laser unit then do it! i never saw the point of the other 8 men stood around doing nothing anyway. you want multiple crimson hunter exarch go for it, make sure you give them a cool name and back story too.

if you want limitations and restrictions and structure stick with playing the normal way.



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You failed to get my point, my 55 were all in units of 1.

That means 55 LV1 sorcerers giving 1 Warp charge each.

Up the pts how ever much you like I could add an additional LV1 sorc per 9pts I have to play with.
If just using flickering fire each model has a 50% chance to cast 2d6 S5 AP4 shots, and can all fire at separate targets, oh and any CC or shooting you do against them from units could only kill them 1 at a time as they are all separate.
 

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I am with B&K on this: Unbound is all about putting your collection on the table and playing shooty-games for fun. I have been playing some games like that since Rogue Trader; all GW have done is formally divide games into "two people doing what they want" and "pick up games against strangers who want an external balancing agent". I welcome the clarification that competing and messing around are both 40K, but you need to play them differently.

With regard to 55 single man Horror squads? Bring it: there is no embarrassment to losing, and if I win Nurgle will bless me for all days!
 

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I'm with Bits and Hobbit on this one. Personally I feel this choice has been aimed at kids (you know, the ones with 3 centurions, a dreadnought and Marneus Calgar as their only collection) so that they can get games of "real" 40k in.

Basically, it's a starter set into 40k addiction, start with Unbound, use whatever you like while you get used to the rules and the idea that each model represents another 6 months without your own house, then when you've spent enough money to fund Kirby's new yacht, you should have enough of a collection to build a Bound list!
 

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On the other hand... RAW, the opening quote says 'UNITS'. By definition, a DT has to be part of the unit that it was purchased, right? It's not a unit in itself?

I dunno. Most likely I'll try running Unbound here and there, but less for the 6 Riptide spam, but more for something like Sternguard and Dreadnoughts without those pesky tacticals.
 

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Bits, I'm not saying that if you want to agree to use whatever the hell you like then you shouldn't - I'm fully and entirely of the opinion that whatever two consenting players decide to do with their game and armies is up to them and nobody else. Do whatever makes you happy.

However by the letter of the rules, then I think if your opponent said "Sure, let's play an unbound game" and you promptly put down an army made ENTIRELY out of Wave Serpents, he would have grounds to complain if you didn't float the idea to him beforehand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The DT is a unit, not a upgrade. It is a outside FOC unit that gets added to troops but it is still a unit with it's own point costs and wargear upgrades. It is not a plasma gun or ML, it is a individual unit choice. The Unnbound rules state, take whatever units you want. If you look at the codex entries for DT's they have a unit type. Plasma guns and ML do not have unit types.

I do not agree that a 8 assualt cannon LR would be allowed, it is not in the unit upgrade options for the unit.

I do not agree that 55 horrors as 55 units are allowed unless you can take a min unit of 1 for them.


What about these examples?

Servitors

Enginseers

Primaris Psykers

Ministorum Priests

Techmarines

Command Squads

Honor Guards
 

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That means 55 LV1 sorcerers giving 1 Warp charge each.
I would face that happily, though I'm pretty sure that you still have to play within the rules for the Codex that you're using them out of for unit composition. For example, I could run an all Death Company army without Astorath but none of the units can be smaller than 3 models since that's the restriction on unit size. That being said, I don't own a copy of 7th yet so feel free to correct me with text from the new BRB.

On the other, more narrative side of things: maybe those Eldar happened upon those Dark Eldar transports as they were left behind by their fleeing/dead owners and in the desperation of war decided to use them to their advantage since most of the systems were easy enough for them to understand and they needed to survive. Were I to be in a survival situation (see also, the zombie apocalypse), I wouldn't be worried about whose car I was jacking more than if that car could be useful to me. I would say this contrasts the idea of a Battle Forged army quite nicely, though I feel like 'Unbound' should be called 'Battle Forged' and 'Battle Forged' should be something that doesn't imply that it was forged in battle but also just so happens to follow a very specific set of guidelines to be used...semantics, I know.
 

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The DT is a unit, not a upgrade. It is a outside FOC unit that gets added to troops but it is still a unit with it's own point costs and wargear upgrades. It is not a plasma gun or ML, it is a individual unit choice. The Unnbound rules state, take whatever units you want. If you look at the codex entries for DT's they have a unit type. Plasma guns and ML do not have unit types.
I don't really understand where you're coming from with the tone of your posts.

Are you looking to have a casual game with your mate, where you can both take things that are fun for you?

Or are you looking for a RAW interpretation that would allow you to play games using this tactic with people who might object to you doing so, and you want a justification in the letter of the rules for how you've built your army?

If it's the former, just do what the hell you like and your opponent can do the same.

If it's the latter, you don't have a leg to stand on, because Unbound still uses points. That means you must purchase units. That means you must purchase unit upgrades. That means to purchase an upgrade (such as a DT) then you need a unit to purchase it for. Whether an upgrade has a type or not is completely immaterial, because you don't even have the option for paying the points for it except as part of upgrading another unit. Trying to claim that because a DT is a model with a unit type and therefore can be used on its own is a stupid as saying you could take 100 Missile Drones as a Tau army because you don't need to take the Riptides needed to unlock them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Please show me a codex listing that states that the DT are unit upgrades and not units.

The rules for unbound are take any unit you want, that is my point. RAW for a DT is that it is a unit, not a upgrade.

Drones are wargear, they are even in the wargear sections of the codex.
 
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