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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The general Consumption is that Gk were hit hard. While I would tend to agree that would be the case, that would only be in the eyes of the player who sees the faction standing out and alone in

that of Pure GK/ 3/4 list.

Like stated in my 7th edition thread describing the nature of what it takes to do well in 7th edition.
What people fail to realize is that the units that were hit the most are units that aren't Meta relevant anyways and that is the Biggest point that I can bring.
Paladins are no longer a unit that you want to take because they fail to.. fall under the categoristic manner of

1. Quantitative because they are multi wounded costly models that can be insta gibbed, more over drowned in shooting, and now D-weaponed.
2. Fast Moving (when alone, though deepstrike does help but you need more mobility than just deepstrike)
3. Ranged combat (psycannons are good but no longer the top tier weapon of choice because of Devastator Centurions, and other units that can do a relatively similiar job for much less points like

that of Sternguard.

Next Strikes
Really I'll just copy and paste exactly what I said in my 7th edition post for this

Strikes
Changes
- Lost Warpquake
-Increased in Point Cost
-Lost Psybolts
-Psycannons are now Salvo

-Simply put, this unit to me is no longer a competitive unit.
Why? Because one has to take into account all the other factions troops units that and compare them Cost/Effectiveness.

Dire Avengers
w Wave Serpent
-Are just better in every way. The Wave Serpent grants the unit a great means of transportation to get to objectives, a place to keep your infantry safe, Is very sturdy, with a shield, a passive cover save, and has a jink save, Has Ignore Cover, A large number of High Caliber Shots.The Dire Avengers themselves, have Battle Focus which enables them to move quickly across the field and grants them protection with the ability to shoot and then jump back behind cover, not to mention their shots are rending.

Dark Eldar
Kablaite warriors or trueborn with splintercannons. Granting them quick means of transportation to get to objectives, a place to keep your infantry safe has night shields to keep them out of range, a passive cover save, a jink save, and a large number of poisoned shots to drown the opposition in dice

Necrons w Night Sythes
Gives you a flyer to deal with other flyers and still be effective vs units on the ground, allow you quick means of transportation, a place to keep your infantry safe, has a passive cover save, can jjink Necrons themselves have the ability to stand back up making them resilient for capturing and holding objectives

Biker Marines
Which are Toughness 5, can scout, can turbo boost, have grav guns or plasma guns, have a passive cover save, have a jink save

Guardsman in Vendettas
the Vendettas drop off the units when they see fit, and at the same time provide anti air, anti vehicles with lascannons, and anti Power Armored, and Terminator Armor

Tau Fire Warriors
Str 5 weaponry at 30" range but buffed with marker drones and usually twin-linked

Drop Pod SternGuard
Special Ammunition Wargear doing the work.

Devastator Centurions with Libby
Gating around wiping squads

Drop Pod Wolves
with plasmas

In comparison
Strikes have stormbolters, 2 shots at str 4 ap 5. and psycannons that are now salvo. They get a rhino or razorback but in comparison, are in no means close to as well capable of transporting units around the field as quickly, with as much protection, and with as much potential to deal damage while relocating. They just cant compete against units that would take up the same role as them in the manner of deep-striking or whether that would be getting in a transport. While they are the closest unit to quantitative in the troop section,because there are only 2, They are just not worth taking especially given that you need only 1 Troop Choice and that Purifiers Do everything they do but better, and actually full-fill the next step in making a unit choice.


The Strength of the Faction itself.
After a Faction finds the roles of units that would full-fill the needs of the Meta, they would look to what units strongly fill the roles of the factions strength.

And strikes do not fill the factions strength of close combat and moreover short ranged fire weapons, except the Incinerator.
Strikes only have one attack base, that's it. Though Given granted it is AP3. 1 Attack is still not sufficient to be noted to be a close combat unit. Especially given that Your units should always be in units of 5, because you want the least amount of models in a squad as possible to deny your opponent the extra model losses that would incurr from their shooting.

Therefore we come to Terminators.
Terminators are Qualitative, however
-they got a cost decrease,
-get a 5++ meaning that at least they have some means of protection against all the low Ap weapons,
-Have 2 attacks on the charge can support as a Libby as a means of a viable attachment since the librarian has terminator armor and would stop a unit without terminator armor from utilizing the ability to sweeping advance.

In conclusion
-You only want one troop unit anyways
-Terminators can support a Libby, without losing something
-2+/5++
-2 Attacks each
-will greatly benefit from sanctuary if manifested
-Can carry psycannons if chosen without taking a hit from psycannons salvo
-Will most likely be using deepstrike to get where they want to anyways so as not to take a weak rhino/razorback tax in relation to the other transports of other factions

Simply put, there is just too much going for them, and not enough going for strikes....
In conclusion I personally would use 5 Terminators as my means of my 1 Troop Choice because they fill the best means of the role for the Meta and my Factions strength in that of the Troop Section

Next Interceptors

Interceptors
-slight cost reduction
However, while they have the ability to cross large distances and are a fast moving unit. They fail hard in comparison to other Fast attacks that it would come up against most notably Biker Marines. Biker Marines, have T 5, get Grav Guns/plasma guns/meltas, Get a scout + Turbo Boost, a passive cover save, and a jink save.Inteceptors get a 30"shunt = scout+ turbo boost. 4 Bikers with the goods cost 30-40 points more than 5 interceptors with a daemon hammer and incinerator to make them all around effective, but the benefits are too large despite the 40pt difference, because the biker marines get ranged ap2 weaponry which will ahnilate them before they get in combat, because interceptors dont get a cover save of anysort. In addition charging in they may lose a model or 2 just from the grav guns.

Other Fast Attacks include, Wraiths, Stormtalon flyers, StormRavens, Warpspiders, Vendettas,
There is just no way to consider taking this unit in comparison to all the other fast attack choices that are most prevalent in competitive play.

So where does that leave GK?
- They no longer have cheap GEQ to cap objectives
- Most of the Units which would make up the core of the force are not viable options.

It means that GK are truly a Primary Detachment Force, and that would go hand in hand with the new 7th edition Rule book which is
- Pushing armies towards Allying with other codexes given the new CAD rules.
- Given the datasleets and Supplement Codexes

Taking that into account and all that has happened with this codex that must be the case, and it is.

The libby our Primary HQ and Draigo a great LoW choice, are exaclty what 7th Edition Calls for
- They are Monstorous, Psychers, buffers and debuffers who have the ability to use Gate to allow themselves to more easily get around the field.
However you dont want to be using Paladins anymore alongside them. No. For all the reasons I stated Above, and moreover because terminators can get the job done just as well, for better

Cost/Effectiveness

The next unit that was greatly buffed via item purchase cost ...
- The Dreadknight.
And while he doesn't necessarily fall under all the points wanted to be a strong Meta Contender Unit. He is still fast, he is still strong if he get in combat, and his incinerator is still good, in addition he also got the Greatsword for *free* and then some costing much less than before. He greatly fills that of the roles of the Factions strength.

The Stormraven
-was nerfed into that of respectably even flyer standards with others around its points, and while it hurt its still an applicable unit. It still can take the lC as well as A MM alongisde the Hurricane bolters and be of threat to most units out there. However this unit, undeniably isn't as eye drawing as before and in that manner there is always a reason.And they cost less and respectively can do the same job as the stormraven now (Anti-air and anti vehicle) The nurf primarily effected the Stormravens ability to deal with infantry (no more Mindstrike Missiles) but it now has (Stormstrike missiles) which are great as well for the purposes of anti-air. All in all, the unit was put more in line to that of what it was supposed to do and now that it has been done so, it is easier to think of allying with another army and getting a flyer from their fast attack options as the means of serving anti-air instead.


So where does that leave us?

Who to ally with. And simply put there are what I can see 3 Winners here.
SM, NECRONS, and Eldar.

-And the reasons are behind the curtain that was 6th edition. Necrons, and Eldar were the mainstay armies to ally with before. The eldar provided bikers to grab objectives, and so did the Necrons with their Night Scythes. Well... Put that all together and it was telling us that to get units that are

1. Quantitative
2. Fast
3. Ranged
4. Flyer capable/ anti-air capable.


Now however, SM are a strong reason to ally as well. They are one of the best in 7th edition armies capable of carrying out the means of what the Meta Ask for. Take that into account and these list(with some configurations and tweeks based on small player preferences are what we will probably seeing in 7th Edition)

*Note* Wolfgang7 brought it to my attention that Draigo is now a LoW choice so that he cannot actually stand as the HQ, and hence you may see +100pts to spare by the list. I went back into each list and corrected the mistake. God how things are a changin :D Draigo LoW, no longer HQ... not to mention everything else....tis gonna be fun


SPACE MARINE ALLIES

Gk w SM allies (Lsyander)

1747Pts.

Primary Detachment
GK 961pts

LoW
Draigo

HQ
Libby
M. LV3
Daemon Hammer

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Allied Detachment
SM 785pts.

HQ
Lysander

Elites
5 Assault Terminators

Troops
5 Scouts

5 Scouts

Fast Attack
StormTalon
Skyhammer ML
SL

Heavy Support
Thunder Fire Cannon

As you can see here this list showcases how much of the GK list is now actually an Allied Detachment...Almost half but what it gains in spite is simply more than what could be asked for from anything in our own codex.

Strategy
-There is no question that Draigo is God this edition. The man has spent an Eternity seemingly in the Warp and still will not faulter. Hell I'm not suprised that he is practically on the statis of a wandering Chaos God himself. Alongside him is the Libby "The right hand of God" and together these guys are just going to pulverize anything they touch. Did I forget to mention that you Gate for Free with Draigo? o_O the guy is going to be buffed beyond God to GOODDDD. and simply put I wouldn't go anywhere near this Deathstar. That funnily is... around 1/4less points of a paladin deathstar before but better. Why? because Gate means he will get where he needs to go, and the fact he is being backed up by 2 Dreadknights who are also combat monsters... your opponent won't have a clue as to what to target... especially given that... "That [email protected]#$%ing guy Lysander is allied alongside him" These 2, are 2 of the 3 best HQ commanders in the game... the only one not in here is Calgar.... These guys will each take a side of the board crash into a unit and then... like a row of dominos... keep makin the model count fall. Backed up by a stormtalon for some anti air purposes and a freaking thunder fire cannon to rid hordes... and 2 units of scouts to back cap... You dont even have to worry about the back door objectives... Just truck and keep on trucking.

Gk w SM allies (Tigurius)
1648pts. +100pts to spare

Primary Detachment
GK 721pts

HQ
Libby
MLV 3
Hammer

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Allied Detachment
SM 927

HQ
Tiguris 165

Elites
8 Sternguard
3 comb Melta
Melta Bombs
Drop Pod

Troops
Scouts

Scouts

Fast Attack
StormTalon
Sky Hammer ML
SL

Heavy Support
3 Centurion Devastators
Grav Cannons
Grav Amps
Omniscope

This List is more than half the points of an the actual Gk list but what do you get for it?

Strategy
- You get just a lone Libby though not as powerful as in the Lsyander List, (Though still freaking powerful) and a Centurion Star to gate around at your leasure wiping squads off the map. from mid ranged instead of in close combat. In addition you get sternguard as well to drop down and put pressure on an unsuspecting unit in the beginning of the game and ruin their day. Backed up 2 Dreadknights, and the StormTalon. Your opponent is going to have to make some very quick choices... Because something is going to get thrashed hard... This list plays a bit less aggressively but still comprises the elements of an aggressive list... More than likely you will have the centurion star and libby gating around together providing support for one another while the Dreadknights go to town else where alongside support provided by the Stormtalon.. The sternguard will rid any unit that would be of major threat to your operations and the scouts can hold their own back capping in some manner.

Gk w SM Allies (Khan)
1650pts +100pts to spare

HQ
Libby
Mlv3, DH

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Allied Detachment
SM 928

HQ

khan
Bike

Command Squad
Bikes, Apothecary, 2 Stormshields

Troops
4(5) Bikers
2 Grav Guns, melta bombs
Attack Bike
MM

4(5) Bikers
2 Grav Guns, meta bombs
Attack Bike
MM

Fast Attack
StormTalon
Skyhammer ML
SL

Heavy Support
Thunder Fire Cannon

This list is once again more than half the points of the actual List but what do you get?

Strategy
- You get a fraction of the List that has been taking the names in many tournaments. There is no question that biker list are extremely strong this addition because of how they naturally synergize with the components needed to suceed in the Meta. This list brings a bit of that essence and backs it up with a bit more umph in that of the melee department. The original Khan Squad no longer has a Captain biker with eternal shield and power fist LULZING through but instead has Libby The right hand of God" Instead, as a seperate entity outside this squad putting on the pressure. In addition this list helps with one major area that Gk lack... Low AP.. the Grav guns help drastically in that department making terminator armored armies begin to piss their pants if they weren't already. Back it up with a Thunderfire cannon to bring the pain from downrange and this List is going to Run right through without lookin back.

Now that we've seen the possible combos with SM lets look at Necs. Necs provide a staggering amount of cheap flyers alongside good capping units in addition to the deadly Wraith Fast Attack. Put that together with GK and you get

NECRONS ALLIES

Gk w Necrons
1746

Primary Detachment
GK 961pts

LoW
Draigo

HQ
Libby
M. LV3
Daemon Hammer

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Allied Detachment
Necrons 765

HQ
Destroyer Lord
Mind shackles, Res Orb, S. Weave

Troops
5 Necron Immortals Tesla
Night Scythe

5 Necron Immortals Tesla
Night Scythe

Fast Attack
5 Canoptic Wraiths
5 whip coils

This list is once again roughly half/half in points between the 2 detachments and with it you get

Strategy
- Respective Control over the skys. 2 night Scythes is what most people would agree is essentially the right number of Night Scythes to have in a list. True the more the merrier but here you effectively maximize the possible amount you could get while bringing along the hated Wraith Star. In addition your Night Scythes are actually packing some sturdy capture units that can put out a respective amount of ranged damage with those teslas adding up when you start rolling those 6s. This list more than anything is a stratigist list. It will enable you to truly play for objectives rather than the killy killy play style that is augmented from taking SM as Allies. All in all you got one Hella Fast Army, with some extremely hard hitting units. This List is not to be triffled with.


The last faction that I come to is Eldar. While you can ally with Guardsman, and Sisters (Even Orks and Dark Eldar but you dont benefit from them as much because of the huge loss in that of capturing objectives because they are desperate allies, I personally am not well knowledged enough about them to provide suggestive list/ don't really feel they would be as strong of list as opposed to allying with Necrons, SM, or Eldar. These 3 factions are the top armies in the Meta so allying with them when I can seems like that would be much more worth while than allying with imperial guard who settle around the middle next to GK.

ELDAR ALLIES
Gk w Eldar

1646pts +100pts to spare

Primary Detachment
GK 716 pts

HQ
Libby
MLV3, Daemon Hammer

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Allied Detachment
Eldar 925

HQ
Farseer
Runes of Warding
Runes of Witnessing

Troops
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
TL Scattler Lasers
Shurikon Cannon

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
TL Scattler Lasers
Shurikon Cannon

Fast Attack
1o Warp Spiders

Heavy Support
5 Dark Reapers
Exarch TL, Starshot
Night Vision, Fast Shot
Marksman Eye

More than your actual GK detachment but what do you get?

Strategy
-You get A ton of models(what Gk lacks alot in most cases) and you get everything that 7th edition calls for except fliers, but with all the TL really do you need a flyer to take them down with this detachment? This army will enable you to support your Gk's as they push ahead by withering down units that would cause problems. Warpspiders are what you wish your Interceptors were, Very mobile, mid ranged units with high strength rending weapons. Now you've go them. Your troops? Dire Avengers capable with rending capable of actually being of threat to terminators cehck. Wave serpent to shoot down other transports as well as flyers in addition to providing cover to the dire avengers inside while being a mobile transport check. A dark Reaper star to make even biker armies worry do to the nature of their high strength ap 3 weapons that can also threaten flyers and Flying MC's check. This list is the definition of a support List where the main detachment is backed up by the 2nd to lead you to victory.


What I find most appeasing more than anything with a little shock but also with a lot of confidence given the case is that most of these list did not take cramming of points. Most of these list actually came to fall in place with the points and the unit choices creating the synergy among units and between the 2 detachments.Finally without further ado there is still always Pure GK. I think there will be be people who try paladins.. I do think there will be people who try Purifier spam... I just don't believe they will come out to be as competitive as Allying with another codex.

PURE GK

1749pt List

Hq
Libby
MLV 2

Elites
10 Purifiers
2 Incinerators
Daemon Hammer
Rhino
SL

10 Purifiers
Daemon Hammer
2 Incinerators
Rhino
SL

Troops
5 Terminators
Daemon Hammer
Incinerator

Fast Attack
StormRaven
Hurricane Bolters
MM, LC, SL

StormRaven
Hurricane Bolters
MM, LC, SL

Heavy Support
Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI

Strategy
-This List literally encompases the most viable units in the meta for this codex while filling out the force org chart as you go down. From the most applicable being Stormravens to Dreadkngihts to Purifiers to Libby then termis. The points once again all came to naturally fall in place. And this list while maybe not the most competitve still should be able to handle anything it comes across. You could also play a deepstrike list but I dont find that worth while since armies such as space marines or space wolves will do so and much better than this faction, so while it is a cool idea...my 2 sense says it wont work because of how you dont want to be utilizing strikes or terminators as the main stay of your army. You want to get your 1 and be done with them. I could see people trying for a Pali deepstrike list as well, but that is also what I believe to be a false hope in that of which you are dropping extremely costed units down over the field that are all capable of being instant deathed or more over shot to death quickly. And while alpha strike is good.. I have never heard of alpha strikes composing of stormbolters and psycannons/ trying to get in flamer range. They consist of either a lot of plasma/grav/melta... and Gk have access to none of the said equipment that is usually used. Even sternguard have ap3 special ammunition or the ability to ignore cover/ poisoned 2+ ammo to put serious pressure on high toughness models. We get psycannons and the problem with psycannons is that they are now salvo. Meaning if you shoot them then you cant assault with them and that is the biggest death sentence of any gk player because we arent anywhere close to the top in that of ranged presence. We need to be in melee range, utilizing incinerators and our combat prowess alongside beign T4 and having 3+ armor. And deepstriking to try and get in range to do so within a template of breathing space is simply unreliable and extremely risky for the cost of such a unit. (More rather this faction)

In conclusion:

Gk are going to imo, change the meta to an extent. We are going to really see what happens when you have 2 armies playing alongside one another as opposed to 3/4 of one and a unit from another.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Also to note for the suggestions for grey knight loadouts would be...

5 Strikes
Daemonhammer
Incinerator

for each 5 in the squad

-If you're utilizing psycannons your playin em wrong... that salvo keeps you from assaulting and the range on the psycannon is pathetic without termi armor

Interceptors
Daemonhammer
Incinerator

- Same reasoning as the strike squad above

Purifiers
2x halberds
1x Wardstave
Daemonhamer
Incinerator

- This squad I would actually give some weapons. They are a good melee squad and mix matching here would be apropriate. The wardstave is extra protection and str 8 ap4 at normal I (with hammerhand). while the halberds are str 7 ap3 at normal I(with hammerhand). People say how they wish how they had higher I... personally I am glad they lost it for the extra stength because it didnt matter if you got in assault last codex becau you couldn't hurt what you were hitting anyways. The incinerator is extra mileage and coverage as well

5 Terminators
2 hammers
2 halberds
1 wardstave
Incinerator

or with libby, trade out a hammer and take another halberd.
-This will get you the best bang for your buck with adamantium will, different I steps and the incinerator to chase down fleeing units/burn units on deepstrike.

5 Paladins (because there will be those people)
I'd suggest the same loadout as above with the terminators though with this squad I could see myself tempted to
- 2 hammers
1 psycannon
1 Incinerator
1 wardstave
2 halberds

This will enable you to get the maximum well rounded unit you could possibly have. The standard is no longer an auto-take because it doesnt automatically activate force, you do get a re-roll however. but in a 5 man squad I find that less worthwhile as opposed to when people were running 10.
 

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Wow dude, you win. I was just about to make a thread asking a lot of questions you answered with this post. I was thinking of modelling my Librarian with a Halberd and my GK Terminators with 3x Halberds and a Hammer. I was thinking of adding in a Warding Stave, but lets just say against MEQ I've dented enough of helmets with S+2 AP4 weapons in CC. I'm also much more worried about Blessings than any other powers, and don't see quite as much a need for Adamantium Will. 3+ Deny The Witch is pretty cool, but I'll be damned if I'm up against anything less than ML3 Psykers anyway. What do you think of that loadout?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I think that the loadout you described would certainly work but it also limits your capabilities of what the squad can come up against. For say

The libby with a halberd
-means he will strike at normal I in a challenge, which is great but, really... does he need to go first/at the same time? I mean with a daemon hammer you get str 10! ap2 That will pretty much make any unit think 2x about getting in combat against him, because that 2+ is reliable and given he gets some even decent psychic power most notably say invisibility making it so you need 6s to hit him. He's going to be Fire in that assault. He'll be able to threaten every unit in the game. So that's why while I see the halberd as a viable option "THE HAMMER" it's just way too good to pass up for the possibilities. I would personally just magnetize the model and switch out between the 2 set ups and find out which you like best

As for 4 Termis with halberds. I suggest at least 1 Hammer. You do want to be of some threat to for say another terminator squad/2+ armor. and if well (I will) you have a hammer termi with a libby together in the same squad you should have a respective amount of close combat staying power. 3 halberds has always seemed to work well for me. Not too little, not too many. and Finally the wardstave is a 3+ Deny? generally you need someone to be the abative wound come shooting anyways. Why not just put him in front of the squad and make a Daemon or Eldar player or anyone for that matter utilizing heavy psychic List roll their eyes, because of how dominating you will be "in their psychic phase not alone yours" because you are denying and dispelling all their powers.

Always outfit yourself to be well rounded when it comes to weapons while staying in respective of what will be truly cost/effective or more rather Unit role effective. Hence why I suggested (Though I totally understand people outfitting psycannons on their terminators) I just feel you should not be wasting strategy on chasing the "opportunity" to maybe get a glance or pen in a Wave Serpent, Ahnilation Barge, Night Scythe, Land Speeder etc. Units that all take a lot to get through whether it is a cover/jink save or a 6+ to hit save because they are a hard target to fire at. Stick to what they are... Infantry killers and bring an attachment or more rather some unit (say a stormraven for example if your using primarily gk codex uits) as means of being the dedicated not only anti flyer but anti vehicle unit.
 

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I see what you mean about giving the Libby a hammer. In my games he's going to be relying on that 5++ save an unfortunate amount of times in CC, but at least there will be 5 other Terminators to back him up/die first. I love magnets, but hate magnetizing arms. Personal gripe, I love cutting up my models for the most dramatic pose. I think it's a permanence thing.

The 4x Halberds was a typo, my apologies. I have edited it to be 3x, though the 'and a a hammer' was always there.

Deny The Witch has three +1 modifiers that can be applied to it: higher ML than who is casting, having Psykers (and any variations) in the squad, and having Adamantium Will on at least one model in the unit. Should I come into contact with a ML1/2 Psyker casting Psychic Shriek at me (which friggin' sucks sometimes) I would have +3 to my DtW roll with this unit, making it 3+ as opposed to 6 if I had a ML3 Psyker and the Ward Staff for Adamantium Will as well...though the rest of that sentence you typed was a little confusing for me. The sarcasm meter doesn't work too well on the interweb.

Just noticed one of the models has an Incinerator modeled on him as well, a S6 AP4 template on a CC squad is always a nice bonus. Think it's worth it? I got no problem cutting stuff apart and fixing any damage, but less is always better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
:laugh: "Roll your eyes"- is when you find yourself sighing/ making an expression along the lines of "Oh God" Ex. "So you only have 5 comb- meltas in that one squad of sternguard."

But yes, that is the reason why I find a warding stave worth taking. Worst scenario.. it doesn't come into play and the terminator holding the ward stave in front of the squad dies first. (He had the least to contribute) Best case scenario- you're up against daemons and they are casting Flickering Fire and that wardstave terminator is in the front going "Nope, sorry no you can't do that, move along :so_happy:"

Also the libby is usually going to be lv3 and can therefore generate half of the santic discipline one of which "Sanctuary" increases their invulnerable to 4++, that should help in survivability

And yes I am totally for Incinerators. I wrote this exactly on another post and it fits here as well.

My major reasoning behind it is... what can you hope to accomplish with one psycannon against transport/vehicle heavy list that compose usually of... Sythes, Wave serpents, and Ahnilation barges? All these units require either some manner of extremely high rolls to hit or to penetrate, in addition they all have a cover save. This unit is not designed to be going after vehicles but more rather infantry and light vehicles, light rhinos and razorbacks (especially when you only have 1 psycannon in the squad) (It would be a different case if there were 2 in the squad because 8 shots is pretty respectable I have to agree but having only 4 shots is really on the lines of fishin for that last spade to make the royal flush. In addition you wont be utilizing the bolters in the squad to full effectiveness shooting at vehicles of this manner either as opposed to if you were shooting at something like a rhino or razorback to glance it to death. I'm looking at effectiveness vs effectiveness in regards to the units role of what it should play to. An incinerator in this Meta, where GEQ are running rampant around like that of a school playground, should be getting punished everytime they find themselves not inside a vehicle. The Incinerator melts the squads down to compensate for your lack of models and calls upon morale checks more often than that of if you were to be shooting bolters at them behind a ruin. The incinerator still does effective damage (that always hits) when facing up against a rhino (though granted without the range, but you have deepstrike to help with that) And moreover because you IMO, SHOULD be allying with other codexes should be able to find the A.V. you need. Understandably incerators v psycannons will be a personal preference choice. I just know that games have been decided much more often with 1 Incinerator than 1 psycannon in the department of strictly 1 Incinerator : 1 psycannon in a squad. If I'm down to one terminator left and he has an incinerator coming up against a blob of guardsman with 15 or so men capping that objective needed to win the game, I'd much rather have put myself to be in a position to force a morale check by burning 8 or so of the guardsman and killing around 6 because I auto hit and need 2+ to wound, rather than having no chance at all because the max I could kill is 4 with a psycannon and that is not even factoring in rolling to hit as of yet. All in All, I'm looking at

Unit Role (infantry killer)
Situational opportunity (often or not)
Natural Terminator Placement on the field (close)- because they want to be in close combat so as not be getting soaked up by ranged fire.
 
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