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Hi there, got a question on the new rules for challenges in 7th.

I know if a model does excess wounds in the challenge they spill over to the squad. Though how does the outside forces rule work?

"Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other models that are locked in the combat have been removed as casualties."

So it implies it works the other way around so excess wounds caused outside the challenge spill into the challenge, which is fine. The confusion I have is the "Allocate wounds" part. What happens when the one of the challengers does not have a squad? It says you can allocate wounds. Not roll to hit and then allocate wounds. So can your squad direct attacks at the challenger or not?

Thanks in advance.
 

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I'll disagree. The models in the challenge no longer have the statement that they are considered to be in btb only with each other. So the squad is engaged if they are within 2" of the model in the challenge. So they get to attack and the rules say that those wounds can be allocated into the challenge. I will agree that it's poorly written and without getting into 'intent', which none of us know, that's about all I can say.
 

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Just got my BRB out to double check.

Yeah, there's actually nothing to prevent those not involved in a challenge from attacking the other challenger.

Looking at the rules a bit more closely, the only real benefit to Look Out, Sir! is the removal of Look Out, Sir (but as a double edged sword, you lose it too). It seems to me that it was intended to prevent something from just running solo and tanking an entire unit by issuing a challenge so it only has to face characters one at a time - but that's a none-problem by a) the person not accepting that challenge and b) not forcing particular armies to issue/accept challenges, c) not having units full of characters and d) Allow targeted challenges (i.e target has to accept), but allow the targeted character to make an Heroic Intervention style thing to nominate another character or to avoid the attack, and remove this "all may attack" rubbish - defeats the entire idea of "challenge".

My idea would be to change it so that;

I.e Space Marine Captain is charged by Jain Zar and a squad of Banshee's. A Captain issues a challenge to the Aspect Warrior Exarch, which the exarch may choose to either accept, nominate another character to make the challenge (making an Initiative check), or refuse a challenge - in which case it must take an Initiative check (on its own initiative) to attempt to avoid the attack.

Maybe include rules for Charging allowing a reroll of Initiative tests when you are challenged by a charged model, while should the charged model have the Counter Attack special rule, then the reroll could be negated. There could also be an inherent bonus in that you get a bonus to the roll based on who has the highest Initiative, equal to the difference between them. I.e a Space Marine Captain is charged by the above example, then the Exarch may need to pass their Initiative check 6, against the Space Marine Captain (5), but if they were to nominate Jain Zar to accept the challenge, although they'd take the test against Initiative 6, it would be with a +2, rather than a +1 thanks to Jain Zar's Initiative of 7. Against Orks, however, an Ork Warboss in a Shoota Boy squad charged by the captain and having a challenge issued against him could nominate an Ork Nob to take his place - although testing on the warbosses initiative (4?), it would suffer a -2 thanks to the Nobz initiative of 3 versus the captain's 5. It would be on modified Initiative too.

If you're diving into an assault, then you're doing so for a reason. If you didn't want to be in an assault, then you shouldn't have been part of a unit to do so.



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So it implies it works the other way around so excess wounds caused outside the challenge spill into the challenge, which is fine. The confusion I have is the "Allocate wounds" part. What happens when the one of the challengers does not have a squad? It says you can allocate wounds. Not roll to hit and then allocate wounds. So can your squad direct attacks at the challenger or not?
The way I read the Challenges section is that you can't directly attack the people in a Challenge with Outside Forces, but if those Outside Forces have attacked the rest of the unit and there are extra wounds left over after they can be allocated to the model from that unit involved in the Challenge. Seems to me it swings both ways now, if there are wounds left over from the Challenge they spill over to the loser's squad but the unit can't be attacked directly out of the Challenge.

EDIT: just noticed the re-roll benefit for having 5+ members in Outside Forces is gone. Good riddance!
 

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I.e Space Marine Captain is charged by Jain Zar and a squad of Banshee's. A Captain issues a challenge to the Aspect Warrior Exarch, which the exarch may choose to either accept, nominate another character to make the challenge (making an Initiative check), or refuse a challenge - in which case it must take an Initiative check (on its own initiative) to attempt to avoid the attack.
Note that you (the challenger) do not get to pick out who you challenge. The defender chooses from amongst the eligible characters (ie engaged) and can use any one of them to accept the challenge. The initiative bit is from Glorious Intervention, where one character takes another characters place in the second or later rounds of a challenge. The only time the challenger picks a character in the challenge process is when the defender refuses the challenge, in that case the attacker can pick which model (from those that could have accepted) sits out the combat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yeah see, that's the problem. I don't see how allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge.
 

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The more I read this, the more it doesn't seem like a separate fight at all like what don_mondo is on about. The description has indeed changed from 'only in b2b with each other' to 'in b2b contact with each other' which is significant. I am seeing Challenges now as a way of getting your beat-stick character hiding in a larger squad into combat while preserving his likely higher Toughness value. If you're a lone Character by yourself it seems you can't challenge your way to victory against a massive squad.

Models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
If they didn't put the "(if any)" contingency in there it would be so much simpler. It's presence implies that there doesn't have to be a unit there for attacks and wounds to have been generated, and that the unit is free to make attacks provided they are in b2b contact or within 2" of someone who is. If that wasn't there it would read as I thought it did in my previous comment. Unfortunately that might just be what makes allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge, Eva.
 

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If they didn't put the "(if any)" contingency in there it would be so much simpler. It's presence implies that there doesn't have to be a unit there for attacks and wounds to have been generated, and that the unit is free to make attacks provided they are in b2b contact or within 2" of someone who is. If that wasn't there it would read as I thought it did in my previous comment. Unfortunately that might just be what makes allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge, Eva.
This, exactly.
 

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So here is a strange example with a question, my Vanguard Veterans assault two groups of Orcs, one having a Warboss. My Chapter Master and the Warboss are in a challenge and the rest of my squad is fighting both units. I allocate which Veterans attack which squad, the one's in base contact with only one unit of orcs have to choose that unit, but everyone else picks if they are within 2" of both (correct me if this is wrong). So my Veterans wipe the unit that was tied to the Warboss with a few extra wounds; do these go to the Warboss, to the other squad, or are they lost? And what if there was no Warboss; do the wounds get allocated to the other squad (I can't picture the rule right now).
 

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Models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
Just put the relevant line in bold. There were still other models locked in combat, therefore the wounds cannot spill into the Challenge. The wounds wouldn't be lost, just allocated to the other available models.


....pretty much what Nordicus said.
 

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Yeh, the purpose of a challenge is to get your possible higher toughness and save. Of course, the loss of Look Out Sir completely outweighs that - if something is going to be in a challenge these days it is going to have AP2. It is why Emperor s Children in 30k are so gimped due to the lack of actual challenge benefits, but to make use of their abilities which enhance challenges they need AP which is gained by one of 4 things - charnabal sabres, power axes, fists (et al) and Phoenix Spears. Of those, only Charnabal Sabres and Spears benefit from +1 Initiative - so that is a 10-20pt upgrade on a 15pt model just to succeed in a challenge which doesn't really offer you that much different.



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if something is going to be in a challenge these days it is going to have AP2
Who can afford, in points, to give all their Characters AP2 capability? Maybe it's the 40k/30k difference, but I have been in a ton of challenges (specially against Chaos with their 'must challenge' rule) where there has been zero concern for anything other than jackass dice denying me an armour save.
 

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That was kinda the point. Running around 50pt unit sergeants (at best, 3 ws4 i5 S5 ap2 attacks) in order to get the bonuses for a challenge (+1 initiative) and risking not only losing but having an additional penalty for losing and dying (hence the 2+ save) just isn't worth it.

You have had to fight a likely tougher opponent sinply to remove his Look Out Sir. The Emperors Children have to shell out all those points simply to avoid risking a malus during the weakest stage in the game. They typically cost 30pts (artif armour and melta bombs), but if you are going that far, you might as well make use of your I5 - kill the enemy and then use your other attacks to potentially kill a couple of others.

That is a major problem with the challenge mechanic especially when forced to. There is just no point to it whatsoever. Maybe to protect you from a lone hidden powerfist while another character is there, but honestly? It seems like there should just be an option for models in base contact to target those models in base contact and use their statistics.

A forced challenge in return for +1 initiative - but if you die and lose combat, a further -1 to your morale is a piece of wank.



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Challenges are pretty awesome for getting, say, your Necron or Chaos Lord in a blob of Warriors or Cultists to still get their normal stat line used. I agree with you that it would be more realistic if there was a contingency for getting specific model stats with each model but it would bog down the Assault phase massively I think. Instead GW made a rule allowing Characters to get their stats shown (when really in a unit they are likely to be the ones with something that stands out) in CC and called it Challenges. It isn't the whole thing you are asking for, but hey it's something. I'm sure if your opponents are like-minded to the issue at hand you'd have no problem lengthening up the Assault Phase and making sure everyone is represented appropriately.
 
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