Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been trying to wrap my head around 7th since it came out after some time away from the game, and I think I have it figured out. GW is essentially blowing up the metagame, because the internet has become far more efficient than their playtesters ever will be at discovering the most powerful army/unit combinations.

By throwing the game wide open with the Unbound versus Battle-Forged build options, it becomes impossible to construct optimized armies that can perform equally well against all other possible combinations. Within the confines of the FoC, it wasn't too difficult to construct armies that were clearly superior to most other viable builds from the other codexes. At the same time, too many armies had only one or two viable builds available because of that meta, so large swaths of units went unused or underused.

If you're familiar with game theory, this is the idea of the Dominant versus Dominated Strategy. The metagame is always to choose your Dominant Strategy when it is available. When there is never any incentive to choose something besides your Dominant Strategy, it is called a Nash Equilibrium, where the players are locked into the same choices. (Oversimplification, but sufficient)

The core concept of 7th Ed is to blow those static metagame choices out of the water with near infinite options for army builds. Sure there will still be some bad army builds and some overpowered ones, but it basically becomes impossible to build against all possible comers. It also has the nifty side effect for GW of opening up the army options so half of every codex isn't useless dead weight that never sells.

Yes, there is a lot of random involved, and yes there are clear winners and losers (just like in every new edition). The competitive scene is going to revolve more around luck and matchups, but isn't that still better than players having an undeniable advantage by just downloading and buying one of the clearly overpowered army lists?

I don't consider myself a 40K expert, or a 7th Edition expert, but that is the theme that absolutely leapt off the pages at me. There will be nerd-rage aplenty (some justified) but overall I fell it is a step in the right direction for the game. More models will be used, more army builds will be possible and viable, and the game should be more fun and surprising, and less of a pay-to-win metagame calculation.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,376 Posts
I don't think there will be that much rage either. Tournaments will just ban unbound and go with just force org armies. Which there will always be dicks that try to make broken armies but generally unbound armies will let people create interesting armies and play campaign fun games. I think this will be fun.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,182 Posts
The Throne of Skulls event at WHW has already indicated that only battle forged armies are permissible and that isn't even flagged as a competitive event.

We have already seen that 7th has one unrivaled build which will be difficult to stop without a specific counter build. This is the deamon summoning build. I think it was a mistake to allow deamons to only peril on a double 6. Maybe super heavies will be needed to truly counter this build.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
We have already seen that 7th has one unrivaled build which will be difficult to stop without a specific counter build. This is the deamon summoning build.
Don't want to be a ball rustler, but.. how comes that "we've already seen"? how many games have been played with that build VS some other build that proves that the daemon summoning spam is THE build? Even though i think that could be a brutal build, maybe we should give that a more adequate try, before assuming it's the killer of killers.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,195 Posts
Personally summon spam seems to be the most garbage list I have ever seen. A few blast markers will remove the few things that manage to come in and not mishap.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,182 Posts
This is the internet. Opinions is created within 15 minutes and will stick for years!
Indeed the power of the internet allows me to make sweeping statements like this! I think the viability of this army will depend on the points level. The lower the points the more marked the effect will be. But you are right it is probably to early to think this is a game breaker. Maybe after a couple of games I can return and back up my claim with tears of defeat?
 

·
Herald of The Warp
Joined
·
2,752 Posts
Indeed the power of the internet allows me to make sweeping statements like this!
I didn't mean you specifically, and apologies if I came across as snide. I'm just sad to see so many players jump the gun on a issue, instead of taking another crack at it and trying something new.

But then again, so far I've won huge victories (Tabled the opponent by turn 2) and got my ass handed to me (tabled by my turn 3) with summoning lists, so I don't see the big hype so far.

Regardless, back on topic :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
But then again, so far I've won huge victories (Tabled the opponent by turn 2) and got my ass handed to me (tabled by my turn 3) with summoning lists, so I don't see the big hype so far.
interesting. if the trend goes on, that could become a very "Dark Eldar-ish philosophy" list: you either win big or lose bad :)
On TOPIC!!!
I think, as i said many times before, that wh40k is NOT a competitve game and every person complaining about that and comparing the game to others rule set (say warmachines or malifaux)has not really understood this fact. This edition is even more free. you can fucking play with toy soldiers :). no restrictions. unbound. and, hey, like FOC was limiting you (with allies, formations, dataslates, lords of war, kinghts, fortifications...)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,182 Posts
On TOPIC!!!
I think, as i said many times before, that wh40k is NOT a competitve game and every person complaining about that and comparing the game to others rule set (say warmachines or malifaux)has not really understood this fact. This edition is even more free. you can fucking play with toy soldiers :). no restrictions. unbound. and, hey, like FOC was limiting you (with allies, formations, dataslates, lords of war, kinghts, fortifications...)
I am finding this view becoming more and more prevalent in the people who have decided to stick with 40k since the whole world is ending release of Escalation. If that didn't make you move away from the game, 7th edition with its opening up of armies and basically anything goes approach certainly wont make you move on.
 

·
Rattlehead
Joined
·
6,741 Posts
What amuses me about Daemon Summoning Spam is that like, a single Wyvern will blast it to pieces once the Guard guns take out your anti-tank (which is Greater Daemons and that's it, and you won't have enough big Daemons to take out all the 70pt Wyverns plus Scoring units and whatever other tanks the Guard are bringing).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
@humakt definitely :)
i'm the type of gamer that really despises perfectly balanced games (i hate dust, can't stand warma-hordes and so on)
I also despise the tourney scene of 40k, since it harbours many a penis-head. Altough i have to admit that is the fluff and the look of certain models that chains me to 40k...and not the rule system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I don't think there will be that much rage either. Tournaments will just ban unbound and go with just force org armies. Which there will always be dicks that try to make broken armies but generally unbound armies will let people create interesting armies and play campaign fun games. I think this will be fun.
That is happening short term, much like how everybody immediately wrote off 6th ed allies and said they would never see competitive play. Now that it's been established the rule isn't going away, allies are more and more commonplace in tournaments. I predict the same will eventually happen with Unbound armies.

Of course, Battle-Forged is also more flexible now, offering multiple detachments, and the Command Benefits those armies get. You want to spam 6 Elites (or whatever), the unlock is only the 2nd detachment of an HQ and 2 Troops. Continuing to shoehorn armies into effectively 5th ed FoC rules with 1999+1 (the point limit doesn't even exist in 7th now) builds and the like just isn't going to remain practical.

I'm by no means saying it's perfect, but I can see where GW is going with this...and why they wanted to get this "patch" edition out the door without waiting another few years for a normal edition cycle. The net effect will be more varied models on the table, and increased risk for min/maxed spam armies...both of which are good things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Whouldnt it be possible for tournaments to divide the lists into tiers and then people will only play against list from the same tier? Im thinking much like in Magic the Gathering:

Vintage - Unbound
Legacy - FoC
Standard - FoC fluff army
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Whouldnt it be possible for tournaments to divide the lists into tiers and then people will only play against list from the same tier? Im thinking much like in Magic the Gathering:

Vintage - Unbound
Legacy - FoC
Standard - FoC fluff army
that would be really funny and also would make sense, definetely. :victory:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Whouldnt it be possible for tournaments to divide the lists into tiers and then people will only play against list from the same tier? Im thinking much like in Magic the Gathering:

Vintage - Unbound
Legacy - FoC
Standard - FoC fluff army
Heroclix also does something similar with their "Modern Age" (the last several releases) and "Golden Age" (any release) game types. They support games and tournaments for both. Modern Age helps keep the inevitable power creep localized, while Golden Age lets people continue to use the minis they previously bought.

Something similar could certainly be done with Unbound and Battle-Forged lists. GW intended them to be balanced and mutually playable, but 7th will have to get out into the wild for a while before we can make any judgement on that.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top