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Uhm, in the 5th ed book, Sisters got a larger entry than grey knights did. Seriously, they aren't going to get forgotten. Given how long they've been working on this, I would be amazed if there isn't something prepared for release day that tugs all the older codeces in line. They've done it before, they can do it again. Back then it wasn't as easy as now, either, what with online PDFs being so easy to disseminate...
Easy to disseminate an online PDF like they already have(not) done for the SoB WD codex?

The 5th ed BRB virtually retconned the SoB out of existence save for a couple paragraphs and mention in "Forces of the Imperium". I remember buying it on release years back, cracking it open with my friends and feeling the huge sigh of disappointment as the 1000$ in models I had sitting on the shelf barely got a mention.

But maybe you are right. Maybe they didn't release the PDF because they are planning to come out with a full codex soon. Maybe come 6th ed, every army will be promptly updated with online PDFs. Maybe every army will be able to field flyers and many older Codex won't have useless, redundant, and outdated rules. Maybe each army will have a full fluff and art section in the big rulebook and some new official artwork will be released for the SoB. Maybe GW will have sanctioned tournaments in the USA again and offer prize support for licensed FLGS for events, leagues and tournaments.

Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen. Until then I'm not holding my breath. :smoke:
 

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I remember having the exact same thoughts when 5th ed came... We had to fight teeth and nail to get a half-decent FAQ... Then that sad PDF debacle. I finally sold my whole SoB army on eBay this week...

Phil
 

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Easy to disseminate an online PDF like they already have(not) done for the SoB WD codex?

The 5th ed BRB virtually retconned the SoB out of existence save for a couple paragraphs and mention in "Forces of the Imperium". I remember buying it on release years back, cracking it open with my friends and feeling the huge sigh of disappointment as the 1000$ in models I had sitting on the shelf barely got a mention.

But maybe you are right. Maybe they didn't release the PDF because they are planning to come out with a full codex soon. Maybe come 6th ed, every army will be promptly updated with online PDFs. Maybe every army will be able to field flyers and many older Codex won't have useless, redundant, and outdated rules. Maybe each army will have a full fluff and art section in the big rulebook and some new official artwork will be released for the SoB. Maybe GW will have sanctioned tournaments in the USA again and offer prize support for licensed FLGS for events, leagues and tournaments.

Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen. Until then I'm not holding my breath. :smoke:
I prefer to live in hope than grind my teeth and damn them for something that hasn't happened yet and may not. Makes life a lot more pleasant to live in, not constantly being annoyed for future mistakes that may never occur... :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #164 (Edited)
Easy to disseminate an online PDF like they already have(not) done for the SoB WD codex? There are a number of reasons the rules may not have been put online yet, to list a few that I can think up off the top of my head: the temporary status of the rules (aka they don't want to convert them over to PDF because they have an actual codex in the works), updating them further before putting them online (to clean up errors that resulted in the errattas that we saw in the FAQ), someone screwed up and deleted the document, saving it for release when Finecast Sisters are ready for release, or no one has thought about it and it just hasn't been done yet.

The 5th ed BRB virtually retconned the SoB out of existence save for a couple paragraphs and mention in "Forces of the Imperium". I remember buying it on release years back, cracking it open with my friends and feeling the huge sigh of disappointment as the 1000$ in models I had sitting on the shelf barely got a mention. It also gave a miniscule mention to the Grey Knights. Don't read too much into it, you'll just end up getting upset over something that wasn't intended as an actual slight.

But maybe you are right. Maybe they didn't release the PDF because they are planning to come out with a full codex soon. Maybe come 6th ed, every army will be promptly updated with online PDFs. Maybe every army will be able to field flyers and many older Codex won't have useless, redundant, and outdated rules. Maybe each army will have a full fluff and art section in the big rulebook and some new official artwork will be released for the SoB. Maybe GW will have sanctioned tournaments in the USA again and offer prize support for licensed FLGS for events, leagues and tournaments. Okay, now you're just being sarcastic and a bit snippy. Don't take out your anger with GW on your fellow Heretics. It's not fair to them to recieve your venom when they're not the ones responsible for you being mad in the first place.

Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen. Until then I'm not holding my breath. :smoke: Yes because GW being bought out by the same people who can't balance MtG (thus card bans and errattas for cards, and rules lawyering that just gets down right -silly- would really be an improvement.
Comments in yellow.

Basically, relax a little. We've waited how long for a new codex? I'm sure we can manage to wait a little longer. It's not like the WD one is half as bad as the internet claims (I still play at 2K just because the internet says I should lose at that point level and I like to annoy the internet as a whole (for the record I've yet to lose to Blood Angels or Grey Knights, so much for instant win armies)), it's just one of small scope.

Yes I'm annoyed that we stil don't have new models (I'd really love to be able to paint my models without trying to define when parts like hair and weapons stop and where the armor stops because they're just a big lump for example) and I'd love a full codex too, but taking it out on your fellow wargamers and Heretics is just silly.

In short, Keep the Faith. We're not getting Squatted, we're just taking a little longer to produce a new codex and model line for. It's what happens when you're not just some cookie cutter army like the Space Marines (I'm sure they design new Space Marine models but taking exisiting ones and adding stuff to them and calling them "done"). We'll get our new codex in due time, until then either keep showing the enemies of the Imperium that we still have what it takes, or perhaps put the girls on the shelf and try out something else.
 

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I really hope you guys are right and come 6th ed I'll eat my words and I hate being the dissenter amongst the SoB community here. Obviously we all love the army to death, otherwise we wouldn't have stuck with it this long. After seeing the amazing job they did with GK and DE, a new release would truly be an emperor send. But that time seems almost past... CSM is a sure thing, they have to do a 6th ed SM dex, then Tau seem certain, at which point there's talk of DA, BT, or Eldar. You only get 2 codex a year (2010 was a fluke). 1 of those is always a SM army. So you're looking at 2014 at the earliest at which point we will be on the ass end of 6th ed and 7th ed will be due the following summer. -_-

I'm really sad to hear you sold your army Boreas :(
 

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Comments in yellow.

Basically, relax a little. We've waited how long for a new codex? I'm sure we can manage to wait a little longer. It's not like the WD one is half as bad as the internet claims (I still play at 2K just because the internet says I should lose at that point level and I like to annoy the internet as a whole (for the record I've yet to lose to Blood Angels or Grey Knights, so much for instant win armies)), it's just one of small scope.

Yes I'm annoyed that we stil don't have new models (I'd really love to be able to paint my models without trying to define when parts like hair and weapons stop and where the armor stops because they're just a big lump for example) and I'd love a full codex too, but taking it out on your fellow wargamers and Heretics is just silly.

In short, Keep the Faith. We're not getting Squatted, we're just taking a little longer to produce a new codex and model line for. It's what happens when you're not just some cookie cutter army like the Space Marines (I'm sure they design new Space Marine models but taking exisiting ones and adding stuff to them and calling them "done"). We'll get our new codex in due time, until then either keep showing the enemies of the Imperium that we still have what it takes, or perhaps put the girls on the shelf and try out something else.
Here Here! Look at the IG and the Dark Eldar if you need proof!
 

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That's ok, still have my GKs and SMs (as well as my Lizardmen). I also sold my Necrons (currently on eBay, the auction ends tomorrow), metal GKs and will be selling my Tau. I sold my Inquisitorial Imperial Guard (mostly an Imperial Navy with Vultures anf Valkyries), my Reaver (yep!), battlefleet gothic Tau and SMs last year. My Warhound will be one of the last pieces to go...

At that point, I might consider a Thousand Sons army if the next CSM codex makes such a thing possible... and if 6th ed. revives some interest for 40k in my group. WFB 8th ed. almost did that, but in the end i failed (imperial warmachines and 6th level spells are to blame!).

Phil
 

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Easy to disseminate an online PDF like they already have(not) done for the SoB WD codex?

The 5th ed BRB virtually retconned the SoB out of existence save for a couple paragraphs and mention in "Forces of the Imperium". I remember buying it on release years back, cracking it open with my friends and feeling the huge sigh of disappointment as the 1000$ in models I had sitting on the shelf barely got a mention.

But maybe you are right. Maybe they didn't release the PDF because they are planning to come out with a full codex soon. Maybe come 6th ed, every army will be promptly updated with online PDFs. Maybe every army will be able to field flyers and many older Codex won't have useless, redundant, and outdated rules. Maybe each army will have a full fluff and art section in the big rulebook and some new official artwork will be released for the SoB. Maybe GW will have sanctioned tournaments in the USA again and offer prize support for licensed FLGS for events, leagues and tournaments.

Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen. Until then I'm not holding my breath. :smoke:
>Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen.
I can not honestly say that such a thing would displease me.
 

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Discussion Starter #169
>Maybe GW will get bought out by WotC and all that will happen.
I can not honestly say that such a thing would displease me.
So the horribly imbalanced nature of MtG (aka he who has the most money wins) is a prospect you'd want in 40K? Or 40K anime edition (aka D&D 4th Edition or the Book of the 5 Swords)? Or getting dozens of poorly balanced supplements that just clutter up the game and create MORE codex jumping and broken codexes (D&D 3.5 AND D&D 4)?

Why would this be a good thing again exactly?
 

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Discussion Starter #171
*cough Forge World cough*
1. Optional, and a large number of the rules are free.
2. Nothing in there is ripping off another system (like WoW)
3. Most of their stuff is alternate model kits or upgrade kits
4. You end up paying enough in points that you usually balance out the abilities that you gain. This is the opposite of WotC's design philosophy of really cheap bigger sticks (making everyone use them or them being banned after a whole bunch of them were sold, making WotC a lot of money).

So no, not Forge World. Do people just like harping on GW so much that they're willing to jump to conclusions without even looking at all the facts anymore?
 

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I think most people use this when they want to harp on GW:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/humor/8e6c/images/2070/

Anyway, My own opinion is that maybe, just maybe GW should have dedicated teams devoted to armies full time. For example, have an Ork team for 40K and Fantasy, have a team that does IG and Empire, one that does Elves and Eldar. I feel like they could spend 6 months per game system and still come out with great, consistant stuff.

I kind of see it like my job. We dont have guys who show up and then get dispatched all willy nilly. You are assigned to a shop with in a section and with in the shop you have dedicated duties. You know about the rest of the section and can fill in if need be, and every few years you get moved to a new shop just so you stay fresh. I feel like if GW went about things like this no one could be accused of being a hired fan boy.

That being said they people would say that we had no continuity or some other such rubbish.
 

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So the horribly imbalanced nature of MtG (aka he who has the most money wins) is a prospect you'd want in 40K? Or 40K anime edition (aka D&D 4th Edition or the Book of the 5 Swords)? Or getting dozens of poorly balanced supplements that just clutter up the game and create MORE codex jumping and broken codexes (D&D 3.5 AND D&D 4)?

Why would this be a good thing again exactly?
I stopped playing MTG sometime around Mercadian Masques (spelling?). I can't comment on it's balance but I do know they still have some of the best artists in the world working on the game and every Friday my FLGS pulls in 50-100 players weekly, 50-200 for tournaments. No Joke. So they did -something- right.

He who has the most money often has an advantage in 40k. You are lying to yourself if you say otherwise.

Although WoTC did change D&D quite a bit, they also kept on producing Forgotten Realms books which kept on many of the original designers and artists from TSR, and is still, even in 4th edition, more similar to AD&D. D&D 3.5, while somewhat of an annoyance was generally accepted by most players as fixing many rules, and also fit seamlessly with 3.0, so it didn't hurt anything and you didn't need to buy the books if you didn't want to.

So yes, while not everything WoTC did with D&D and MTG was great but they are successful with it. They also offer prize support just for playing D&D everyweek or MTG at the store. Like wtf they give you money for playing their game :clapping: ?

I would take dozens of mediocre supplements with a few good ones over a company that only releases a few books a year for a single game system.
 

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4. You end up paying enough in points that you usually balance out the abilities that you gain. This is the opposite of WotC's design philosophy of really cheap bigger sticks (making everyone use them or them being banned after a whole bunch of them were sold, making WotC a lot of money).
Yet jet-bike armies laugh at me... otherwise I might agree, but some of the pricey units are ridiculous, FW or not. (Though not everything FW is)
 

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"Chaos Dreadnaught is removed and replaced with a new unit (like how pariahs were replaced with Lychguard)"

I call major bull on this one, why would GW remove an iconic unit with multiple models and multiple references to been with CSM for something else, even GW wouldnt be so stupid, so i highly doubt it would be removed, more likely theyll have something similar to dread as another unit entry ie Contemptor dreads or Decimator or new types of dreads ie something similar to mortis pattern.
 

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Discussion Starter #177 (Edited)
I stopped playing MTG sometime around Mercadian Masques (spelling?). I can't comment on it's balance but I do know they still have some of the best artists in the world working on the game and every Friday my FLGS pulls in 50-100 players weekly, 50-200 for tournaments. No Joke. So they did -something- right.

He who has the most money often has an advantage in 40k. You are lying to yourself if you say otherwise.

Although WoTC did change D&D quite a bit, they also kept on producing Forgotten Realms books which kept on many of the original designers and artists from TSR, and is still, even in 4th edition, more similar to AD&D. D&D 3.5, while somewhat of an annoyance was generally accepted by most players as fixing many rules, and also fit seamlessly with 3.0, so it didn't hurt anything and you didn't need to buy the books if you didn't want to.

So yes, while not everything WoTC did with D&D and MTG was great but they are successful with it. They also offer prize support just for playing D&D everyweek or MTG at the store. Like wtf they give you money for playing their game :clapping: ?

I would take dozens of mediocre supplements with a few good ones over a company that only releases a few books a year for a single game system.
In essence you don't mind the idea of spending 2-3x as much regularly just to keep up with the current edition, or the idea of having dozen's of poorly balanced supplements basically wrecking any sense of balance is something you consider a perk? More isn't always better.

I used to play MtG in 7th Edition. It was an apparent race to spend the most money to build the best deck. I got out when 8th rolled around and everyone jumped on the Darksteel Forge/Colossus bandwagon. Needless to say the mechanics of an indestructible artifact deck was so broken just about everyone was trying to play it because it was THE way to win. I tried playing a Myr deck but just couldn't keep my interest up. And out I went.

D&D 3.5 was fun, but allowing the wrong supplement into a campaign essentially meant dealing with trying to balance encounters for one player. And D&D 4 is so bad it killed the D&D games at my flgs (and I've heard several people say that they only play 3.5 or Pathfinder instead).

When it comes to development, yes GW is slower, but they're a smaller staff within a smaller company. And for all our complaints of balance they still do a better job that WotC.

Additionally, points costs are what help balance two competing armies out. It isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than "at least 60 cards, no more than 4 of any one card" and requiring you to memorize a new list of banned cards every couple months.

Furthermore if money was such a great factor into building an uberarmy then why is Draigowing so popular? Oh that's right, one of it's big selling points is that it doesn't need a lot of models.

"Chaos Dreadnaught is removed and replaced with a new unit (like how pariahs were replaced with Lychguard)"

I call major bull on this one, why would GW remove an iconic unit with multiple models and multiple references to been with CSM for something else, even GW wouldnt be so stupid, so i highly doubt it would be removed, more likely theyll have something similar to dread as another unit entry ie Contemptor dreads or Decimator or new types of dreads ie something similar to mortis pattern.
I assume it's still going to be in essence a Dreadnought but it's going to get a new name or perhaps a different style model. Probably something to reflect the hundreds millenia these these things have been stomping around in the warp.
 

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I can see the chaos forces going away from the dreadnoughts and twards something else. Seeing as the dark cog boys would not be constrained by the the same things the mechanicum would be I can see advances for the chaos side, with some draw backs to make things even.

I would even go so far as to say they would keep the rules for the dreads because not all of the traitor legions would throw the dreads into the meat grinder just for fun, and you would think fluff wise that a metal clad hellion tear-assing around the battle field is worth more to Korne alive then dead.
 

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If you use that same logic, then dreadnoughts would be in abundance with chaos as they would be mere toys to the Dark mechanicus and they wouldnt have to be built the traditional way either, so infact i think chaos ought to have loads of them.
 

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If you use that same logic, then dreadnoughts would be in abundance with chaos as they would be mere toys to the Dark mechanicus and they wouldnt have to be built the traditional way either, so infact i think chaos ought to have loads of them.
Yes but you have to admit that if given a choice, why would you stop at two legs? And why would you need an fully developed Space Marine who takes no end of time, material and I would think money, when you could pluck some babie out of its mothers womb in the most disgusting way and throw it into a hulking 8 legged metal beast. Not sure how meny people have babies around here, but they have one hell of a temper.

This is getting off into a more fluff based arguement, I'm just saying that we on earth still have the means to produce sherman tanks, but we dont because an abrams works better for us, as far as a massive box that runs on jet full works. I'm just saying that for any army to phase out a peice of equipment in favor of a new type CSM seems to be kind of a shoe in. They could even take a page out of the Ork book and have looted dreads you know?
 
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