Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

801 - 820 of 841 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
My tau love the rumoured relentless changes... and my banshees cry at the power weapon changes.

Oh well, most of this stuff about charges and close combat doesn't affect me much, tau will still die to anything in close combat and eldar will still survive with the close combat units and die with the shooty ones. There's even a much needed buff to tau with the relentless change. 3 shot plasma rifles anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
I dont know Zion, if they take the deep strike option from terminators they better let them go in drop pods. But I dont see that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,807 Posts
As long as they stick to Hull Points for AV14 then i'm not particularily bothered about that, despite its silliness. Anything else would be a overly stupid, Tanks are Armored, yes, but not enough that they can withstand a shot anymore than they already do.

Stop trying to take things from Apocalypse and my Super Heavies GW! :ireful2:

Alice
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,190 Posts
If the fantasy wound chart is real then my Wraithlords need 4 wounds and a 2+. Minimum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
As long as they stick to Hull Points for AV14 then i'm not particularily bothered about that, despite its silliness. Anything else would be a overly stupid, Tanks are Armored, yes, but not enough that they can withstand a shot anymore than they already do.

Stop trying to take things from Apocalypse and my Super Heavies GW! :ireful2:

Alice
Although if the points work the way some rumours say they can be used to off-set stunned or weapon destroyed results, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,807 Posts
Although if the points work the way some rumours say they can be used to off-set stunned or weapon destroyed results, etc.
Thats what the Wargear is for. No MBT equivalent Tank is going to be untouched never mind undamaged by a shot from an Anti-Tank weapon and/or the resulting explosion.

Super Heavies, yes, they are massive and have much thicker armor. Structure points make sense in that context, not this one.

Alice
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
383 Posts
Thats what the Wargear is for. No MBT equivalent Tank is going to be untouched never mind undamaged by a shot from an Anti-Tank weapon and/or the resulting explosion.

Super Heavies, yes, they are massive and have much thicker armor. Structure points make sense in that context, not this one.

Alice
I don't see how it's that big of a deal. If you're glancing or penetrating a vehicle, you're getting a result anyways, even if it's just a shake. Like you said, wargear can improve the odds of survival, but it's only the odds (never a sure thing), and wargear like extra armor is only available of certain vehicles anyways.

All a system like hull points does is make the vehicle damage system more deterministic over time, meaning it flattens out the probability curve of vehicles absorbing an unusual number of damaging hits through luck. You'll no longer see the super Rhino that take penetrating 10 ML hits and keeps on trucking because they were all shakes.

For the system to have any real effect on overall gameplay, the number of hull points would have to be lower than the chances of destroying the vehicle through the damage chart. For example, say a Predator has 6 hull points, and a penetrating hit does 2 hull points of damage. Three such hits will destroy the vehicle...but three such hits will also give 3 1/3 chances to destroy the vehicle through damage. All that's really happening is the elimination of statistical anomalies. Over time in thousands of games, the net result is to make vehicle damage more predictable, and less susceptible to random runs of luck.

Of course, that's just an example based on one possible system, but that's likely going to be the effect of hull points. I suspect they will closely match the odds of being destroyed through the damage chart. If it works out that they get more hull points, all that will happen is very unusual runs of luck will be eliminated. If they get less, then vehicles would take a true hit in terms of survivability.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,705 Posts
They'd have to change MC's though too somehow because a Wraithlord is next to useless when it can never roll on anything able to wound it (practically) anyway, if MC attacks were still power weapons they wouldn't even be heavy hitters anymore period. I don't mind +2 units becoming immune to power weapons necessarily but that would mean you would really want them to fight others I can't think of many options Eldar would have for one to even do that, they're melee centric units would be mediocre against that.

I could see this work depending how it all fit's together, though as is it makes me really want to keep +2 units at range. Which might not be bad for the game.
MCs don't have power weapons, they ignore armour saves. There's the difference :wink:

Terminator armour suddenly becoming better is no bad thing. It used to go from 3+ on 1D6 to 3+ on
2D6. That's one hell of a leap in effectiveness. Having it become that good again means it's as good as the fluff. It also makes rending worth paying for, as that's not "power weapons" either, it's ignore armour. Which means genestealers can still do their fluffy thing of punching through terminators like tissue paper. That's all going by current rules though, which are changing in a week.

At this point, I'm just ignoring new rumours. We have a week to wait, and given no rulebooks have been sent out and the Studio is so tightlipped it's amazing they can eat, everything is speculation.

Patience is a virtue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
I don't see how it's that big of a deal. If you're glancing or penetrating a vehicle, you're getting a result anyways, even if it's just a shake. Like you said, wargear can improve the odds of survival, but it's only the odds (never a sure thing), and wargear like extra armor is only available of certain vehicles anyways.

All a system like hull points does is make the vehicle damage system more deterministic over time, meaning it flattens out the probability curve of vehicles absorbing an unusual number of damaging hits through luck. You'll no longer see the super Rhino that take penetrating 10 ML hits and keeps on trucking because they were all shakes.

For the system to have any real effect on overall gameplay, the number of hull points would have to be lower than the chances of destroying the vehicle through the damage chart. For example, say a Predator has 6 hull points, and a penetrating hit does 2 hull points of damage. Three such hits will destroy the vehicle...but three such hits will also give 3 1/3 chances to destroy the vehicle through damage. All that's really happening is the elimination of statistical anomalies. Over time in thousands of games, the net result is to make vehicle damage more predictable, and less susceptible to random runs of luck.

Of course, that's just an example based on one possible system, but that's likely going to be the effect of hull points. I suspect they will closely match the odds of being destroyed through the damage chart. If it works out that they get more hull points, all that will happen is very unusual runs of luck will be eliminated. If they get less, then vehicles would take a true hit in terms of survivability.
I for one wont sweat a hull point system, but I do think that the current system is pretty good for what it is. A trooper with a missile launcher does not fire at the general area of the tank, he shoots for the track, or the exaust system if it is exposed, or maybe a seem in the armor. But we cannot have called shot in the game so what can you do?

I does kind of feel like vehicles need a small nerf to try and cut down on the all mech lists, (i'm just as guilty as any one for this) but it would give foot bound armies a fighting chance.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,705 Posts
I would love to see the proposed hull point system come in. It means all tanks would have a finite number of glancing / penetrating hits they can take, regardless of result. I hate it when rhinos take double figures of hits, and getting 1s and 2s on all of them. If they could take a maximum of, say, 4 hits that get through their armour it would make things more reasonable and less frustrating, especially for those of us with no tanks. 'Nids big things can only take 6 hits that go through their armour...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,209 Posts
I seriously hope that the rumor about only armor 14 getting hull points is wrong. LRs and leman russes and monoliths don't need a nerf.....it's rhinos and razor backs and chimeras that need the nerf.

edit:: now that I read it again, it would be a buff to the armor 14 vehicles....which is legitimate.
 

·
Ancient Relic
Joined
·
2,430 Posts
I for one wont sweat a hull point system, but I do think that the current system is pretty good for what it is. A trooper with a missile launcher does not fire at the general area of the tank, he shoots for the track, or the exaust system if it is exposed, or maybe a seem in the armor. But we cannot have called shot in the game so what can you do?

I does kind of feel like vehicles need a small nerf to try and cut down on the all mech lists, (i'm just as guilty as any one for this) but it would give foot bound armies a fighting chance.
Foot lists have well more than a fighting chance contrary to the opinion of the intertubes. Templars, deathwing, loganwing, footdar, the list goes on. Dont be fooled by internet idiots
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
If the whole "wounding anything on a 6" pans out to be real (which I kinda suspect it will be), I can only assume it'll be in close combat, as things like bolters already need 6s to wound targets such as Wraithlords, big tyranid nasties etc.


If it does turn out to be accurate though....well, you'll just have to be more careful about what you attack and what you attack it with (don't go assaulting ork blobs with solitary Trygons etc)


I can understand the Hull Points thing on AV14 if im honest. These are supposed to be the big heavy tanks, and its a bit of a wiffle when the thing gets blown up on turn 1. So i'm cool with that.


Hopefully Eldar will still get to use all their psychic tricks, while perhaps taking advantage of some of the new ones. I somewhat suspect the new psychic stuff will benefit certain aspects of the imperium more though. At least everyone should be able to keep their own psychic stuff though - I don't particularly feel like giving up Doom, Fortune etc.

The only thing so far thats annoyed me is the power weapon changes. Almost as if its geared towards helping certain armies over the others. Funny that...

Also, if its infantryhammer, i'm calling it - Nids move to top tier, certainly top 3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,811 Posts
I can understand the Hull Points thing on AV14 if im honest. These are supposed to be the big heavy tanks, and its a bit of a wiffle when the thing gets blown up on turn 1. So i'm cool with that.
It would be cool if every army had an AV 14 vehicle. As it stands now this is just a big buff to Space Marines and not most other armies.

Infantry are fine as they are now. Plenty of tournies are won with infantry lists. It's just the loudest minority gets heard on the internet who cry about not being able to take out a few rhinos.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,385 Posts
Discussion Starter #818
It would be cool if every army had an AV 14 vehicle. As it stands now this is just a big buff to Space Marines and not most other armies.

Infantry are fine as they are now. Plenty of tournies are won with infantry lists. It's just the loudest minority gets heard on the internet who cry about not being able to take out a few rhinos.
Space Marines have 3 Landraider variants (and the Black Templars can make a whole army of them that are lanceproof!), the Necrons would get their Monolith souped back up again, Ork Battlewagons become even more useful (and they can take around 8 in a single list, so the Battlewagon rush just got nastier), and Imperial Guard just got better Leman Russ variants.

I'm beginning to think the "Apoc in 40K" and "Superheavies in 40K" rumor may be infact be because of this rule actually.
 

·
Ancient Relic
Joined
·
2,430 Posts
Space Marines have 3 Landraider variants (and the Black Templars can make a whole army of them that are lanceproof!), the Necrons would get their Monolith souped back up again, Ork Battlewagons become even more useful (and they can take around 8 in a single list, so the Battlewagon rush just got nastier), and Imperial Guard just got better Leman Russ variants.

I'm beginning to think the "Apoc in 40K" and "Superheavies in 40K" rumor may be infact be because of this rule actually.
They can only take 4 battlewagons in an army maximum.

Also the rulebook art looks meh
 
801 - 820 of 841 Posts
Top