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Mate, your whole argument is flawed. Dreadnoughts have been in use since before the heresy, they are standard war machinery for chaos. CSM are familiar with them and for them effective and because of that familiarity they are easier to maintain and produce and the reason why they wouldnt be able to use babies is more then likely down to the fact there brains are not mature enough to pilot a dread.

Your whole thing with the tanks is down to technology we have better technology to create better things we also develop the means to build and produce this better technology making it as easy to produce ie an Abrams as it would have been back in ww2 for shermans, this however does not entirely work for 40k as technological progression is much slower even with the Dark mechanicums usuage of warp energy it is still slow.

How much CSM fluff have you actually read as to me it sounds like you dont know how much chaos marines rely on dreads.
 

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The thing is, existing fluff matters not to codex writers. Look how GKs went from hyper-pure guardians of the Imperial sanctity to sorcerers capable of blood-sacrifice. If GW want to change Chaos dreads to Daemon engine, nothing will stop them.

Phil
 

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Mate, your whole argument is flawed. Dreadnoughts have been in use since before the heresy, they are standard war machinery for chaos. CSM are familiar with them and for them effective and because of that familiarity they are easier to maintain and produce and the reason why they wouldnt be able to use babies is more then likely down to the fact there brains are not mature enough to pilot a dread.

Your whole thing with the tanks is down to technology we have better technology to create better things we also develop the means to build and produce this better technology making it as easy to produce ie an Abrams as it would have been back in ww2 for shermans, this however does not entirely work for 40k as technological progression is much slower even with the Dark mechanicums usuage of warp energy it is still slow.

How much fluff have you actually read as to me it sounds like you dont know how much chaos marines rely on dreads.
Well...I'm not one for derailing a thread on 6ed rumors to defend my thinking and to point out how its not flawed, but since you asked.

As I've been playing and into the fluff since 1998 I would have to say that I am well aquanted with most of the factions in the setting. I'm not going to go into exactly how grimdark the forces of chaos are, but I belive the story of the unfleshed demonstrates how far the dark cog boys will go with babies. I think I also need to point out that the entire reason that the loyal forces have slow technological progress (you know, aside from it being a pain in the ass for GW to rewrite the rules when the IG discovers that GPS inertial guided bombs are pretty darn good at killing things and I dont care who you are but launching a solid projectile at 10% of the speed of light is going to ruin a hive ships day...) is because of the dogma and ritualization of technological processes which in turn has converted the idea that a plan or designe can always be improved into the idea that the very same plans and designes are already perfect and cannot be improved, so dont try.

The Dark Mechanicum on the other hand (As seen for example in the book Mechanicum) feels like the big E took far too meny liberties with his edicts against things like AI and all that. They feel, for good or for Ill, that no line of thought or investigation should go unplumbed, even if that means strapping screaming six year olds into metal walking robots just to see what happenes, you know FOR SCIENCE! Fast forward 10,000 years and yes, I see no logical break down in the idea that a bunch of cyborgs who are nuttier then a box of squrill turds whould use insane children and not astrates to drive some new form of walker. I also see no reason why they would stop building standard dreads, seeing as, according to fluff, ever plucky guardsman or hard as nails sgt has a melta bomb and also has the godly luck to kill the dread prior to being turned into pink mist by a well placed assult cannon salvo.

I would also like to point out that progress does happen in the chaos realm at a faster rate simply because the empire takes a 'Aint broke dont fix it' view where as the renagades take the 'Can this be any more fucked up?' view. I will use another real life example, we have 250 pound bombs all the way up to conventional bombs with a enough explosive power to be confused with a low powered nuke. Now ask your self why. Why would you need a bomb that can level most of a city in one go? Because 'Fuck You' thats why. We do it because we can. Lets go back to 40K - The Imperial Forces by and large cannot think out side of the box long enought to come up with an idea like this so it would not even come up, but seeing as the forces of chaos said goodbye to the box ten thousand years ago, and have the help of deamons who are constructed out of the very stuff of crazy nightmares, so say that 'Oh thats too far over the line, even for chaos' suggests that you sir don't have a real grasp of what chaos is about.

My last point is perhaps the most mundane, but dont you think if chaos had access to weaponized hat full of land sharkes some one would have used it? If GW produced a unit of psycotic jokaero who had guns like the SAG and needed an Iron Warrior Captian to control them dont you think everyone who wanted to try them out would have? Hell I would be getting into chaos right now if GW said they were going to do that!

In conclusion, if you dont think GW will replace the dread, then fine, but dont try to call my exceptance of what at this point is wild mass guessing into question as illogical just because you cannot fully understand the power of the dark side.

PS I am your father.:grin:
 

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I think most people use this when they want to harp on GW:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/humor/8e6c/images/2070/

Anyway, My own opinion is that maybe, just maybe GW should have dedicated teams devoted to armies full time. For example, have an Ork team for 40K and Fantasy, have a team that does IG and Empire, one that does Elves and Eldar. I feel like they could spend 6 months per game system and still come out with great, consistant stuff.

I kind of see it like my job. We dont have guys who show up and then get dispatched all willy nilly. You are assigned to a shop with in a section and with in the shop you have dedicated duties. You know about the rest of the section and can fill in if need be, and every few years you get moved to a new shop just so you stay fresh. I feel like if GW went about things like this no one could be accused of being a hired fan boy.

That being said they people would say that we had no continuity or some other such rubbish.
Kind of like how Wizards has dedicated Design and Development teams on every magic block. And on the game in general, to keep things more or less consistent.
 

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Kind of like how Wizards has dedicated Design and Development teams on every magic block. And on the game in general, to keep things more or less consistent.
I would not say exactly like MtG, seeing as for normal play cards from what, two years ago are not allowed?

I would think that if you have like 3 guys who only had to worry about say...Tau, we might have had a codex for them in 5th ed. And you cant say that would not be a sound buisness dicision becuase I know for a fact that every serious Tau player would have bought it.
 

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I would not say exactly like MtG, seeing as for normal play cards from what, two years ago are not allowed?

I would think that if you have like 3 guys who only had to worry about say...Tau, we might have had a codex for them in 5th ed. And you cant say that would not be a sound buisness dicision becuase I know for a fact that every serious Tau player would have bought it.
I didn't say exactly, either. :p

EDIT 1: It'd make more business sense to have a single design team and a single development team that work collectively on everything 40k in terms of rules and fluff.

Personally, though, I like the quality of the product and method of acquisition GW has for their minis (non-randomized kits with what have been amazing sculpts as of late)

EDIT 2: lower prices would be pretty nice, too. More easily acquired=more sales=more money.
 

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In essence you don't mind the idea of spending 2-3x as much regularly just to keep up with the current edition, or the idea of having dozen's of poorly balanced supplements basically wrecking any sense of balance is something you consider a perk? More isn't always better.

I used to play MtG in 7th Edition. It was an apparent race to spend the most money to build the best deck. I got out when 8th rolled around and everyone jumped on the Darksteel Forge/Colossus bandwagon. Needless to say the mechanics of an indestructible artifact deck was so broken just about everyone was trying to play it because it was THE way to win. I tried playing a Myr deck but just couldn't keep my interest up. And out I went.

D&D 3.5 was fun, but allowing the wrong supplement into a campaign essentially meant dealing with trying to balance encounters for one player. And D&D 4 is so bad it killed the D&D games at my flgs (and I've heard several people say that they only play 3.5 or Pathfinder instead).

When it comes to development, yes GW is slower, but they're a smaller staff within a smaller company. And for all our complaints of balance they still do a better job that WotC.

Additionally, points costs are what help balance two competing armies out. It isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than "at least 60 cards, no more than 4 of any one card" and requiring you to memorize a new list of banned cards every couple months.

Furthermore if money was such a great factor into building an uberarmy then why is Draigowing so popular? Oh that's right, one of it's big selling points is that it doesn't need a lot of models.
Really seems like you are "back in my day"ing. People always do this when they love something and don't want it to change. Just like a great band can't keep releasing the same album, MTG couldn't keep releasing the same editions. It had to change to keep progressing and is the only CTCG I know of which after 15+ years is still increasing in popularity. I don't play anymore for the same reasons you don't, but had they kept the game the same, no one would be playing anymore because it would be OOP.

Also Draigowing? Have yet to see people winning major tournies with that one... last time I tried a Necron tank IDed an entire squad with a single blast template, lol balance. Not to mention a decent deck of MTG doesn't cost as much as even a Draigowing let alone the thousands people drop on GW models. And just wait, come June they will cost even more...

And why are you comparing a Miniwargame and a PnP RPG and CTCG? Apples and Oranges. It's only a matter of time before WoTC releases a wargame of their own and probably take a huge bite out of GW's sales.

Not sure where you are from but GW doesn't do a better job here state side. They dropped tourney support, closed most of their retail locations and enbargoed sales from overseas. Now if I want to buy models I either drive 2 hours to the GW store or order on GW dot com. Any other retailers can't undercut the price and shipping takes long than ordering direct. Thanks GW.
 

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Really seems like you are "back in my day"ing. People always do this when they love something and don't want it to change. Just like a great band can't keep releasing the same album, MTG couldn't keep releasing the same editions. It had to change to keep progressing and is the only CTCG I know of which after 15+ years is still increasing in popularity. I don't play anymore for the same reasons you don't, but had they kept the game the same, no one would be playing anymore because it would be OOP.

Also Draigowing? Have yet to see people winning major tournies with that one... last time I tried a Necron tank IDed an entire squad with a single blast template, lol balance. Not to mention a decent deck of MTG doesn't cost as much as even a Draigowing let alone the thousands people drop on GW models. And just wait, come June they will cost even more...

And why are you comparing a Miniwargame and a PnP RPG and CTCG? Apples and Oranges. It's only a matter of time before WoTC releases a wargame of their own and probably take a huge bite out of GW's sales.

Not sure where you are from but GW doesn't do a better job here state side. They dropped tourney support, closed most of their retail locations and enbargoed sales from overseas. Now if I want to buy models I either drive 2 hours to the GW store or order on GW dot com. Any other retailers can't undercut the price and shipping takes long than ordering direct. Thanks GW.
dude, I know. When the closed the GWS near me I was like


Then, when I found out they closed the GWS at colorado mills mall when I was visiting my family I was like that again :c

Good thing they opened another one in Colorado. Too bad I'll be going to colpar hobbies instead ;D
 

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dude, I know. When the closed the GWS near me I was like


Then, when I found out they closed the GWS at colorado mills mall when I was visiting my family I was like that again :c

Good thing they opened another one in Colorado. Too bad I'll be going to colpar hobbies instead ;D
Damn that sucks, they only have 1 left here in Michigan. I really think if they want to succeed as a business here in the USA they need to offer more support to other local retailers. They don't even send out promotional posters, card board cutouts or banners to vendors. I can't think of any foreign company who is successful in the USA by trying to run their own private retail locations. Even a Honda dealership will sell used Fords and Chevys.
 

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Damn that sucks, they only have 1 left here in Michigan. I really think if they want to succeed as a business here in the USA they need to offer more support to other local retailers. They don't even send out promotional posters, card board cutouts or banners to vendors. I can't think of any foreign company who is successful in the USA by trying to run their own private retail locations. Even a Honda dealership will sell used Fords and Chevys.
yep.
 

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Discussion Starter #191 (Edited)
Really seems like you are "back in my day"ing. People always do this when they love something and don't want it to change. No, I'm just point out the flaws that people don't want to admit exist in WotC's way of doing things. Because apparently only GW is able to do anything wrong. Ever.

Just like a great band can't keep releasing the same album, MTG couldn't keep releasing the same editions. No long running game can, but MTG invalidates older decks by taking them from being played at all when new editions roll out (outside of casual play or one specific tournament type that has a banned/restricted list that is basically a small book). There is very little carry over (mana and some basic cards) so whole decks can be invalidated with no way to continue to play specific kinds of themes. It's like a band that switches genres every album.

It had to change to keep progressing and is the only CTCG I know of which after 15+ years is still increasing in popularity. I don't play anymore for the same reasons you don't, but had they kept the game the same, no one would be playing anymore because it would be OOP. I'm not saying they shouldn't change, I'm saying they suck at long term balance. When it comes to balance GW actually does a better job overall, and has erratta'd things to fit editions better when the fans asked for it. WotC just bans/restricts things instead.

Also Draigowing? Have yet to see people winning major tournies with that one... last time I tried a Necron tank IDed an entire squad with a single blast template, lol balance. Not to mention a decent deck of MTG doesn't cost as much as even a Draigowing let alone the thousands people drop on GW models. And just wait, come June they will cost even more... GW models, still good between codex changes, MtG, only good if they reprinted your cards into the new edition. MtG is a game made of thin sheets of laminated cardstock, GW models are made of resin, plastic or metal. No comparison for pricing works there. But I stand by that the GW models are able to be used longer thus meaning you get more for your money overall. More expensive, sure, but they're still valid for a lot longer.

And why are you comparing a Miniwargame and a PnP RPG and CTCG? Apples and Oranges. It's only a matter of time before WoTC releases a wargame of their own and probably take a huge bite out of GW's sales. There is no minature wargame to compare to so all I've got is the existing trends that they have with their games. And because the trends WotC follow are the same with pretty much all of their games it's what I've been making my baseline comparison with. WotC produces lots of product for something, damns the balance, and make money because people will scramble to buy it just to keep up with the power creep that comes with every new set of cards, and every new book. It's actually worse than GW's in a lot of ways because it enforces mandatory bandwagonning. Sure you can play for fun (and in D&D ignoring anything not in the core rules is usually for the best anyways these days) but you have to jump onto the next big thing just to keep up. Oh, and say you liked your (say) Wood Elf deck? Too bad it's no longer tournament legal outside of one specific game type! It'd be like an army being squatted every new edition that came out only to eventually get a partial replacement sometime before the next edition came out. And it's more WotC would just buy out someone else and update that over and over again pushing it away from being anything recognizable and more into being something like something else so they can try to make money from a new demographic (the move of D&D 4th towards being more like a tabletop version of WoW is an example of that). GW produces new specialist games from time to time, but I can't think of anything in the last 10 years that WotC is responsible for producing that was wholly original to them. I may be wrong, but I can't think of anything.

Not sure where you are from but GW doesn't do a better job here state side. They dropped tourney support, closed most of their retail locations and enbargoed sales from overseas. Now if I want to buy models I either drive 2 hours to the GW store or order on GW dot com. Any other retailers can't undercut the price and shipping takes long than ordering direct. Thanks GW. I'm in New York state so I get a massive tax markup on everything I buy (the big paint set had a $45USD mark up from taxes alone). The loss of the tournament that was being accused of imbalanced and poorly run isn't something wrong (infact people should be HAPPY that it went away after the amount of negative response I saw last year), GW still runs tournaments in their own stores and has now a budget for supply prize support to FLGS now who keeps their products in stock (an improvement). The embargo was silly but there was likely a legitimate legal reason for why they did this. And if you think the loss of GW's is bad now (you can thank a bad economy meaning they can't afford to keep every single store open which means the stores that don't pull in enough money HAVE to close or GW would be taking big penalties finacially which would hurt us worse) IF WotC bought out GW (somehow) I don't think ANY GWs would still be open because it'd save them money since they can just sell their stuff in Big Box Stores and FLGS instead of needing to pay more employees so everyone would lose their GWs.
Comments in yellow.

The point is GW isn't the best thing out there, but neither is WotC. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it a better pig, and for every perk you like about the way one company does something there is a drawback somewhere.

Basically to try and claim that any company is perfect is a blatant lie and to try and say a company that can't even balance it's existing product lines could do it better is incredibly silly.

TL;DR: If you really hate the way GW runs it's house go play something else, because you won't be happy with anything they do. Either way leave it out of a thread about a GW based thread because it's borderline trolling. You're in a thread about something related to a specific company then talking about how you wish they would go under or sell their product to another company. I'm not a GW fan boy (I've been known for loudly complaining several times about things I don't like (Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition especially)), but honestly I can live without the constant GW bashing. Be constructive and address GW directly if you have a problem. Write the CEO an actual letter. Or go complain somewhere more appropriate. Let's put this thread back on track and stick with the 6th edition rumors, not how much anyone wants to hate on GW this week because they think GW came to their house to kick their cat.

EDIT: Here's a great roll up of some different companies and their support http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/05/musings-of-game-store-owner.html It's not all inclusive but it's got good points from a store owner's POV.
 

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Comments in yellow.

The point is GW isn't the best thing out there, but neither is WotC. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it a better pig, and for every perk you like about the way one company does something there is a drawback somewhere.

Basically to try and claim that any company is perfect is a blatant lie and to try and say a company that can't even balance it's existing product lines could do it better is incredibly silly.

TL;DR: If you really hate the way GW runs it's house go play something else, because you won't be happy with anything they do. Either way leave it out of a thread about a GW based thread because it's borderline trolling. You're in a thread about something related to a specific company then talking about how you wish they would go under or sell their product to another company. I'm not a GW fan boy (I've been known for loudly complaining several times about things I don't like (Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition especially)), but honestly I can live without the constant GW bashing. Be constructive and address GW directly if you have a problem. Write the CEO an actual letter. Or go complain somewhere more appropriate. Let's put this thread back on track and stick with the 6th edition rumors, not how much anyone wants to hate on GW this week because they think GW came to their house to kick their cat.

EDIT: Here's a great roll up of some different companies and their support http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/05/musings-of-game-store-owner.html It's not all inclusive but it's got good points from a store owner's POV.
You're the only one who really has a problem with what I said, in fact, some agreed. Trolling? It's called a different opinion, you will find many of them on the internet. I didn't trash GW or call names, just pointing out business practices they have which I disagree with and my disappointment at the loss of their presence in my area. Calling troll is a sure fire way to point out when you don't have much else to support your opinion.

Still you are comparing a card game with a miniature game. It doesn't make sense. IF GW updated every codex/army like they should every edition it wouldn't matter if the old edition was completely imbalanced/overwritten because there would be new edition books which would fix this. If the new book wasn't out yet then they just would release a PDF to fix it; something GW doesn't do! (BT anyone?) So you wasted all those paragraphs comparing why orange create a problem due to their peels, but hey guess what, apples don't need to be peeled!

I've never said WoTC is perfect. I dislike a lot of things they do, but they do some decent things. At least I didn't say GW should get bought out by White Wolf lol.

Actually I think it would be great if GW pulled all their retail locations stateside and supported LGS. The tourneys they run at GW stores are a joke. Last month they had a doubles tourney and allowed sharing of powers/abilities inter-army with no restrictions for allies. KFF Leman Russ anyone lol? 'Ard Boyz was fun and I would love to play it again or at least a decent standard tourney with real prize support and not just a pat on the back. The employees at GW don't actually help, they are just there to sell you more GW stuff. At least at a LGS someone will give you a straight opinion on different models and codex; not "Yeah it's awesome, buy 10 please".

I don't hate GW. I love their game which is why I have thousands of dollars in their product. I just wish they supported that product and their customers better than they do, there's nothing wrong with expecting that.
 

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Comments in yellow.
GW models, still good between codex changes, MtG, only good if they reprinted your cards into the new edition. MtG is a game made of thin sheets of laminated cardstock, GW models are made of resin, plastic or metal. No comparison for pricing works there. But I stand by that the GW models are able to be used longer thus meaning you get more for your money overall. More expensive, sure, but they're still valid for a lot longer.
I just have to point out that I still use a first ed ork shoota boy. He is way smaller then the modern orks so I just call him 'Tittybobo, King of the grots' he dies after the nob in my shoota boy squads just because he is so funny.

I dont want to quote everything you said but I did read and I agree with almost all of it. I was into MtG from Ice Age to the Wetherlight block. Got out and then got back in just to try in new pyrexia, still not my cup of tea.
 

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So I came to this thread hoping to see some fine and fresh rumours about 6th ed, and I seem to have stumbled into a support/complaint battle over GW's development methods. . . .

Isn't there like another hundred hate/love threads already without cluttering up the rumours section too?

Just a thought guys. :whistle:
 

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I don't hate GW. I love their game which is why I have thousands of dollars in their product. I just wish they supported that product and their customers better than they do, there's nothing wrong with expecting that.
Like codex entries not getting models for months if not longer...or never. Could be worse, could be how Catalyst handles Battletech, with medicore tiny metal mini's and a can-retread-the-same-fiction attitude. Though 40k's base plot doesn't seem to move that's more normal. Unless these rumors do occur which would be interesting. I guess not a bad idea for an anniversary, weird fluff or not.
 

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Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it a better pig...
I have always hated the 'put a pig in a dress' cliche. It premise is completely ridiculous and it's totally loaded from the start because it presumes without any sort of evidence that what your opponent is arguing for is worthless and ugly.

Sure wizards of the coast isn't perfect, purely for the fact that nothing is, but it is alot fairer to it's fanbase than is GWS in terms of pricing, support for the product, and respect for the player base.

The only reason I feel that GWS holds any ground is because of the quality of the models (of course) and people just love the lore of warhammer so much.


I haven't really looked into this thread before now, but I hope that all the things that are in the OP are wrong.

The part about vehicles having HP is hilarious. If that is correct, then my squad of 20 necron warriors will always kill every vehicle in the game in a volley.
 

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Sure wizards of the coast isn't perfect, purely for the fact that nothing is, but it is alot fairer to it's fanbase than is GWS in terms of pricing, support for the product, and respect for the player base.
Aren't "Wizards of the Coast" just another part of Hasbro?

I supported TSR, Avalon Hill -> Hasbro for years, long before I took to 40k and GW. Eventually the games I played with them disappeared, almost overnight. One of which was a proto-trading card game we played in 1983 10 years before WotC "invented" them in 1993.

There was never a shop that stocked their products in my town and barely one in Australia and at no point was I ever able to meet with other patrons of the company at an event organised by the company.

From where I sit GW is unique in that respect.
 

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Aren't "Wizards of the Coast" just another part of Hasbro?

I supported TSR, Avalon Hill -> Hasbro for years, long before I took to 40k and GW. Eventually the games I played with them disappeared, almost overnight.

There was never a shop that stocked their products in my town and barely one in Australia and at no point was I ever able to meet with other patrons of the company at an event organised by the company.

From where I sit GW is unique in that respect.
Well, I obviously can't speak for Australia, but I know that I can find about a million places to play WotC games around where I live in the states. And you're right, there are no WotC stores, but that's why we have independent retailers. And from the horror stories I've heard about GWS locations, I think i'm just as well avoiding the 6 of them that are established in my city.

When i'm talking about support, i'm talking about support for the games. That's what players really need, not a brick and mortar.
 

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Aren't "Wizards of the Coast" just another part of Hasbro?

I supported TSR, Avalon Hill -> Hasbro for years, long before I took to 40k and GW. Eventually the games I played with them disappeared, almost overnight.

There was never a shop that stocked their products in my town and barely one in Australia and at no point was I ever able to meet with other patrons of the company at an event organised by the company.

From where I sit GW is unique in that respect.
Exactly, i have seen many a company bring out games and promote them as the next big thing, then stay around for a few months or a couple of years only to vannish overnight.

At least in this respects GW have been around for 25 years and aren't to vannish any time soon.
 
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