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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here we go, my project to have finished by Xmas.

Characters: 1250

-Malekith = 600 (in Black guard)
-Master w/BSB Hydra banner, Heavy armour and Sea dragon Cloak = 188 (in Black guard)
-Master w/Ring of Darkness, Heavy armour, Sea dragon cloak and Great weapon = 132 (In black guard)
-Supreme Sorceress w/Darkstar Cloak, Pendant of Khaeleth, extra level, Dark Pegasus = 330

Core:1600

40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
5 Harpies = 55
5 Harpies = 55
20 Black Ark Corsairs w/Full command and Handbows = 225
20 Black Ark Corsairs w/Full command and Handbows = 225
Assassain w/Manebane, Cry of war and Rune of Khaine = 150 (in Black guard)

Special: 1253

8 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Null Talisman and Standard of the Slaughter = 306
8 Cold one Knights w/Full command = 226
20 Black Guard including Full command, Banner of Hag graef and Kouran - 391
3 Cold one Chariots = 300

Rare: 900

Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
2 Repeater Bolt throwers = 200

TOTAL = 5003

Thoughts? is it even a legal army? general help?

Do I have enough magic protection and casting power? I've got 2 lvl 4s, one of whom has +1 power dice/Dispel Dice and the other +1 power dice. And both have the 'Power of Darkness' spell, potentially adding another 8 power dice.

Should I drop

thanks in advance
 

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For characters, obviously you're running a theme list, so Malekith is good as is. Give the Supreme Sorceress the Sacrificial Dagger instead and stick her in one of the big units of Warriors, perhaps giving her the Lore of Shadow. This should have you magic phase down. As for the Battle-Standard, no. Just no. The Black-Guard hardly gain any benefit for all the points spent on the Hyda Banner, far better to make him harder to kill. Perhaps the Whip of Agony and the Dawn-Stone?

As a whole, you seem to be relying a *lot* on the Black-Guard, and even with the upgrades you've given them, they'll be very fragile. Consider spreading around some of the character love to other units.

The Core is quite solid, but the Assassin is probably not that good investment. I'd consider dropping him. As well, the Corsairs might benefit from splitting up, perhaps into a 20-man AHW/SSS unit and two RHB units, or simply 4 RHB units.

For Specials, you have fairly good sized units, but I'd use some of the freed up points from the previous stuff to buff the Cold One Knights. As well, Banner of Hag Graef is a terrible choice for Black-Guard, as they barely get any benefit from it. Move it to one of the Cold One Knights units.

Rare is solid, though Bolt Throwers are iffy when you have this much S6 and stuff running around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So I need to re-arrange my magic banners? I'll give it some thought and post what I come up with.
I was thinking about dropping the BSB master and taking a hag. Giving me access to a cauldron to further buff the BG (giving them the ward save would be useful against chargers no?)

The idea of the flying Sorceress was to neutralise war machines and the like, but do you think your suggestion would be better for the army? I'd change her equipment to suit this.

And I could drop the bolt throwers, I only took them as I figured there would be some kind of flying monster at this level of points, but would another Hydra better, for a total of 5?
 

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Ah ha! So this is where that 1400-point unit of Black Guard with Malekith and two other characters from your other thread is going! 5000 points is a colossal undertaking, especially in only 3-4 months. Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Ok, had another go:

Characters: 1215
-Malekith = 600 (In BG)
-Supreme Sorceress w/Darkstar Cloak, Sacrificial Dagger, Pendant of Khaeleth, Null talisman and Extra level = 360 (In a warriors unit)
-Death Hag w/BSB, Cauldron of Blood and Dance of Doom = 255

Core: 1500
-40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
-40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
-5 Harpies = 55
-5 Harpies = 55
-Assassain w/Manbane, Cry of War and Rune of Khaine = 150 (In BG)
-10 Black Ark Corsairs w/Repeater Handbows = 100
-20 Black Ark Corsairs w/Full command and Warbanner = 250

Special: 1401
-10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Null talisman and Banner of Hag Graef = 360
-10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Null talisman and the standard of Slaughter = 360
-3 Cold one Chariots = 300
-20 Black Guard w/Full command, Kouran and Banner of Murder = 381

Rare: 875
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175

Total: 4991

How does it look now?

BG form up against the hardest looking unit in the opponents army, Hopefully with Malekith to hassle enemy shooters and armour piercing up close, with their re-rolls to hit and Blessing from the Cauldron (either to help offense or defense), Assassain to jump out for challenges they will be able to hold their own.
Big unit of Corsairs on one flank.
2 Hydras on either side of the BG.
Cold one Chariots on one flank.
Each Cold one knight unit is supported by a Hydra.
Last Hydra to fill in any gap.

Thoughts now?

PS, I already own and have painted around half of the models, and as I batch paint (to no particular level other than table worthy) Plastic models are easy to get done.
I am however using this army as an excuse to improve my metallic metal painting schemes and practice with an air brush.
 

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Looking better, but still a couple nitpicks. First, I think that the cap for identical Rares is 4, so no fifth Hydra, next, you can't have more than one arcane item on the Sorceress, so that build is illegal, and finally, Dance of Doom is the 5+ ward save correct? It's redundant. Cauldron gives her a 4+.

Kouran probably is a bit of a better investment with Malekith in there, as they'll be focusing on him, so the last thing to change is the Standard of Slaughter on your Cold One Knights. D3 extra combat res on the charge won't really matter, because the enemy will either be stubborn, or you won't need the extra combat res. Look through the core rulebook. There's banners that let you reroll first failed leadership (Stupidity-be-gone for 5 points!), one more movement which is always useful, and a variety of other things.
 

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RXB warriors are much better with shields for the +1 AS and parry save. In 8th edition, denying points by making units a bit larger is important, so I'd heavily consider combining units and ensuring that musicians for the free swift reform are in every unit.

I'd look at dropping the COC's for a superior BSB mounted to run with the COK blocks. I've been testing COK blocks and they benefit a lot from a stubborn, hard to kill dreadlord and a BSB nearby with the re-rolls to avoid stupidity failures. I'm equipping the BSB on a steed with dragonhelm and dawnstone (re-roll all AS) and putting the BOHG on the COK unit and it rocks (high I + ASF means re-roll to hit beyond the first turn). I often use the cauldron to initially protect the COK unit and add something with MR.

I still use at least one solid unit of DR's over harpies, especially since they have vanguard and fast cav abilities and can be used to screen and give a Look Out Sir benefit to a mounted sorc or BSB.

I'm mixed on the Mal. It almost seems better to have an almost unkillable dreadlord and another Lvl 2 in his place. That way you have two lords and three heroes and more balance.

I'd only run one corsair block and only with SSS banner for frenzy plus RHBs. Due to supporting attacks being limited to one in the second rank, RHBs are quick-to-fire and get off two shots for each model from two ranks multiplying the number of attacks the corsairs effectively get. Even then, I still find the corsairs too often get blown away and are best used as a flanking/flank protectionn and sacrificial screening unit that can take on lower T and AS horde units but are not effective against tougher stuff.

The assasin has just not worked for me (too easy to kill and often not enough to kill something worth its points) and I'm finding that the BG unit is too light in T and AS unless really well protected by the cauldron and MR and screened. It should really be an elite flanking stubborn unit that temporarily tar pits the enemy (one of the reaons I run the BSB on a steed is to have it within Look OUr Sir range and screened by the COK units but still able to get back to range with the hydras and BG if they get into combat. Think about how the two COK blocks will interact with the hydra and a mobile BSB. At 2500 points, I'm running a 10 COK unit with a BSB and dreadlord on CO and two hydras and it really puts the opposing general in a bind.

With that many points, I still would sacrifice a hydra or two for 2 to 4 RBTs. There are just so many occasions when the hydras die too quickly and the RBTs take out a character or cut down a high value unit, even though there are many games when the RBTs jsut don't pay for themselves.
 

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just to reiterate from the tactics page non of the characters can go in the black gaurd unit if kouran is presant in the unit
Why? Kouran functions as a champion, so even if there's a rule for only one character per unit, something I can't recall, there still can be a guy in there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Meh, Kouran is no loss to be honest. A tower master with the Crimson death would be cheaper anyway.

A unit of BG led my Malekith won't be running away anytime soon.

Although, I'm re-working this list as I have now decided Mally isn't worth 600 points.
 

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There's a lot you must change if you plan to kill those pesky High Elves!

Ok, had another go:

Characters: 1215
-Malekith = 600 (In BG)
-Supreme Sorceress w/Darkstar Cloak, Sacrificial Dagger, Pendant of Khaeleth, Null talisman and Extra level = 360 (In a warriors unit)

You cannot have both the Darkstar Cloak and Sacrificial Dagger. Drop the Darkstar Cloak and the Null Talisman for the Seal of Ghrond. Now you generate 2 extra Dispel Dice. You need the Lore of Metal as it is your 5000 point army has no way to deal with regeneration.

-Death Hag w/BSB, Cauldron of Blood and Dance of Doom = 255

There's no reason to take Dance of Doom. You already have a 4+ Ward Save. Instead take a Banner of Swiftness. The 1 inch of extra movement will make alot of difference when positioning the Cauldron.

Core: 1500
-40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
-40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100
-10 Repeater Crossbowmen = 100

Build 2 squads of 20 with musician and standard. You can shoot in 2 ranks. Why wouldn't you take advantage of this? More wounds means harder to panic. More models means more ranks in melee. Its idea.

-5 Harpies = 55
-5 Harpies = 55
-Assassain w/Manbane, Cry of War and Rune of Khaine = 150 (In BG)

Assassins in melee are pretty shitty in 8th edition. You will kill a few models then die since you have no armor and only 2 wound. Convert this Assassin to a Manbane/Rending Star and toss him in with some Shades. Gives you some solid killy power against other monsters, warmachines so your Hyrdas have less opposition.

-10 Black Ark Corsairs w/Repeater Handbows = 100

Subpar when compared to Repeater Crossbowmen. Drop em for the 10 Repeater Crossbowmen that you need to run 2 squads of 20.

-20 Black Ark Corsairs w/Full command and Warbanner = 250

This is a huge waste of what should be the Sea Serpent Standard. I would also up the model count to 24 and run them 6 wide.

Special: 1401
-10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Null talisman and Banner of Hag Graef = 360

Only 1 model in the army can carry Null Talismans. I also wouldn't bother with just 1. Try "The other Tricksters Shard, Charm Shield, and Luckstone. You can effectively disregard 2 hits and ignore pesky ward saves that will hold you back.

-10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Null talisman and the standard of Slaughter = 360

Give this unit the Gleaning Pennant. I run 2-3 groups of 10 Cold One Knights in 3000+ and have found it nearly impossible to play them correctly and keep both in range of the BSB. I would also take the ring of Hotek. Its one of our best magic items and you dont have it.

-3 Cold one Chariots = 300
-20 Black Guard w/Full command, Kouran and Banner of Murder = 381

Very Nice

Rare: 875
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175
-Hydra = 175

This is way over board. You have 3 Chariots and 3 Hydras. You have absolutely crap for warmachine hunting/harassment. I would drop 2 War Hydras for 2 squads of 10 Shades. Shades are way to good to ignore.

Total: 4991

How does it look now?

BG form up against the hardest looking unit in the opponents army, Hopefully with Malekith to hassle enemy shooters and armour piercing up close, with their re-rolls to hit and Blessing from the Cauldron (either to help offense or defense), Assassain to jump out for challenges they will be able to hold their own.
Big unit of Corsairs on one flank.
2 Hydras on either side of the BG.
Cold one Chariots on one flank.
Each Cold one knight unit is supported by a Hydra.
Last Hydra to fill in any gap.

Thoughts now?

PS, I already own and have painted around half of the models, and as I batch paint (to no particular level other than table worthy) Plastic models are easy to get done.
I am however using this army as an excuse to improve my metallic metal painting schemes and practice with an air brush.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Characters: 1240
Dreadlord w/Whip of Agony, Ring of Darkness, Pendant of Kaeleth, Heavy armour, Shield and Sea dragon Cloak = 255 (leads BG w/ BoM)
Supreme Sorceress w/Sacrificial Dagger, Seal of Ghrond, 2 Power stones, Extra level and Lore of Metal = 355 (Leads a spearman unit)
Supreme Sorceress w/Darkstar Cloak, 2 Null Talismans, 2 Power stones, Dark pegasus, Extra level and Lore of Dark magic = 405
Death Hag w/BSB and Cauldron of Blood = 225

Core: 1400
40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
20 Crossbowmen = 200
20 Crossbowmen = 200
24 Corsairs w/Full command and Sea Serpent Banner = 290
5 Harpies = 55
5 Harpies = 55
Assassain w/Manbane, Cry of War, additional Hand weapon and Rending Stars = 161 (hidden the Shades)

Special: 1450
10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Ring of Hotek and Standard of Hag Graef = 370
10 Shades w/Great weapons and Light armour = 190
20 Black Guard w/Full command, Crimson Death and banner of Murder = 345
20 Black Guard w/Full command, Gem of Nightmares and Standard of the Slaughter = 345
2 Cold one Chariots = 200

Rare: 900
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
2 Repeater Bolt throwers = 200

Total: 4990

What about now?

Dreadlord is designed for challenges, Str5 with the armour modifiers with the Ring and Pendant for protection.
Sorceress 1 is a lore of metal power house.
Sorceress 2 I'm unsure on, she's designed to disrupt, but if she can get off a black horror, with power stones and the DS cloak, alongside Power of darkness, she can hopefully cripple a big unit.

Banner of Murder BG go with with Dreadlord flanked by a hydra, designed for fighting heavy infantry.
Standard of the Slaughter BG alongside gem of nightmares are designed for defeating hordes, hopefully causing a devestating charge. Then, although it's not much, causing fear for a turn.
Frenzied Corsairs go on one flank. 2 Chariots on the other.
 

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Characters: 1240
Dreadlord w/Whip of Agony, Ring of Darkness, Pendant of Kaeleth, Heavy armour, Shield and Sea dragon Cloak = 255 (leads BG w/ BoM)
Good build. I'd watch out for sniper spells though, as they'll go straight through the Pendant.
Supreme Sorceress w/Sacrificial Dagger, Seal of Ghrond, 2 Power stones, Extra level and Lore of Metal = 355 (Leads a spearman unit)
Are Power Stones still able to be taken in multiples and while you have another Arcane Item? Regardless, I'd put some protection on her.
Supreme Sorceress w/Darkstar Cloak, 2 Null Talismans, 2 Power stones, Dark pegasus, Extra level and Lore of Dark magic = 405
If she's on a pegasus, she's gonna need some protection. Pendant of Khaeleth would be quite good here.
Death Hag w/BSB and Cauldron of Blood = 225

Core: 1400
40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
40 Dark Elf Warriors w/Full command and Shields = 295
20 Crossbowmen = 200
20 Crossbowmen = 200
24 Corsairs w/Full command and Sea Serpent Banner = 290
5 Harpies = 55
5 Harpies = 55
Assassain w/Manbane, Cry of War, additional Hand weapon and Rending Stars = 161 (hidden the Shades)
I'd say to get rid of Cry of War. It doesn't do much at all. Otherwise, your core looks good.

Special: 1450
10 Cold one Knights w/Full command, Ring of Hotek and Standard of Hag Graef = 370
10 Shades w/Great weapons and Light armour = 190
20 Black Guard w/Full command, Crimson Death and banner of Murder = 345
20 Black Guard w/Full command, Gem of Nightmares and Standard of the Slaughter = 345
2 Cold one Chariots = 200
With the nerf to the Ring of Hotek, I'd say to change the loadout on your champion. Sword of Might/Battle combined with Ironcurse Icon or Gooluck Stone are good items. Get rid of Great Weapons and Light Armor for Shades, give them additional hand weapons. Second Black-Guard unit has a poor setup. Since they have the points-allowance for magical banners, give the second unit Armor-Piercing from the core rulebook. Consider getting rid of Gem of Nightmares, it doesn't do much.

Rare: 900
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
Hydra = 175
2 Repeater Bolt throwers = 200

Total: 4990

What about now?

Dreadlord is designed for challenges, Str5 with the armour modifiers with the Ring and Pendant for protection.
Sorceress 1 is a lore of metal power house.
Sorceress 2 I'm unsure on, she's designed to disrupt, but if she can get off a black horror, with power stones and the DS cloak, alongside Power of darkness, she can hopefully cripple a big unit.

Banner of Murder BG go with with Dreadlord flanked by a hydra, designed for fighting heavy infantry.
Standard of the Slaughter BG alongside gem of nightmares are designed for defeating hordes, hopefully causing a devestating charge. Then, although it's not much, causing fear for a turn.
Frenzied Corsairs go on one flank. 2 Chariots on the other.
Thoughts in purple. Your list is starting to look a lot better though!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hmm, taking into account my characters...what do you think I should do about protection.

As I only have 1 pendant, and the black amulet is expensive.

So what should I do?

re-write my entire magic items if you need too.
 

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Hmm, taking into account my characters...what do you think I should do about protection.

As I only have 1 pendant, and the black amulet is expensive.

So what should I do?

re-write my entire magic items if you need too.
There are plenty of good protection items from the core rulebook. For your Dreadlord, I'd use the Armor of Eternal Servitude to be able to keep your other magical items, and for the Peggie Sorc, I'd give her the Pendant of Khaeleth. It saves you from a good deal of miscasts, and warmachines will generally just not hurt her. Combined with Dark Lore to get Soul Stealer and 6 wounds, she won't be dying very soon. Protection isn't quite as necessary for the other Sorceress, but Talisman of Preservation would be ideal.

Note however, with your general that this will make him sort of vulnerable because he'll have only a 3+/2++. If you put him on a Cold One, he can go into the Cold One Knights unit and do just as good.
 

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Good build. I'd watch out for sniper spells though, as they'll go straight through the Pendant.

Are Power Stones still able to be taken in multiples and while you have another Arcane Item? Regardless, I'd put some protection on her.

No you can only have 1 Arcane item. So no Powerstones can be taken at all if she carries the Dagger. If you drop all 4 Powerstones then you have enough points for Shields on all your Repeaters. I would also ditch Great Weapons and Light Armor on Shades as Jackal suggested. Losing always strike first on charge makes them useless. Use those points for Musicians on your Repeaters. Then they can reform once for free. Wonderful to change position and move 5 inches if you need to shoot flankers. Also good when you know they're about to get charged.

If she's on a pegasus, she's gonna need some protection. Pendant of Khaeleth would be quite good here.

Agreed

I'd say to get rid of Cry of War. It doesn't do much at all. Otherwise, your core looks good.

Agreed

With the nerf to the Ring of Hotek, I'd say to change the loadout on your champion. Sword of Might/Battle combined with Ironcurse Icon or Gooluck Stone are good items. Get rid of Great Weapons and Light Armor for Shades, give them additional hand weapons. Second Black-Guard unit has a poor setup. Since they have the points-allowance for magical banners, give the second unit Armor-Piercing from the core rulebook. Consider getting rid of Gem of Nightmares, it doesn't do much.

Definately take the Razor Standard as suggested. Also consider putting the Whip of Agony here.


The Ring is still good, you just need to deliver it! Cold Ones and certain Dark Pegasus builds are idea.

Thoughts in purple. Your list is starting to look a lot better though!
For the Dread Lore take the Sword of Might (You lose an attack but keep Str 5, Armor Piercing wont stack) Armor of Eternal Servitude, Dragonbane Gem, Black Dragon Egg, Shield, and Sea Dragon Cloak. Thats 1+ Save, Regen, and 2+ Ward against fire. You can unleash the Egg in close combat for Toughness 6, and 2d6 Str 4 hits. Perfect way to reduce a hordes rank bonus and lean combat res to your favor.

Then Transfer the pendant of Kholeth to your pegasus rider.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
How're we feeling about 2 units of BG? I did look at executioners, but for the tiny amount of points it is between a BG and one of them I figured more BG would be better.

What do we think about the Pegasus sorceress? Is she worth it?

I'm happy with the Core and Rare.

I have a vague Idea on what to do with the Characters equipment, but would like to see you both in agreement on what they should carry :)

Thanks alot btw, means much.
 

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How're we feeling about 2 units of BG? I did look at executioners, but for the tiny amount of points it is between a BG and one of them I figured more BG would be better.
With Cold One Knights and Lore of Metal, you don't really need the high strength attacks they'll put out.

What do we think about the Pegasus sorceress? Is she worth it?
As a Supreme Sorceress, it's a bit iffy. You're spending a lot of points on spells she might not even be able to use, especially with one Sorceress having the Lore of Metal. Consider downgrading to a regular Sorc, but the loss of the positives to cast is a downside to this approach. Also consider the Lore of Death to snipe out characters, especially if you downgrade. If your Sorceress kills even one character, she's usually done her job.

I'm happy with the Core and Rare.

I have a vague Idea on what to do with the Characters equipment, but would like to see you both in agreement on what they should carry :)

Thanks alot btw, means much.
Both of the builds we suggested are good routes. There are lots of good places to put your Dreadlord in this large a list, and many of these good choices. You'll just have to decide based on the models you like, and your playstyle. :)
 
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