[venomlust]

- Image from Tabeltop Standard



Okay, the last attempt was a total mess, so I want to try a new approach that makes a lot more sense.

Basically these are based on Thunderwolf Cavalry, since they exist now, and just changing things subtly to make them work in a CSM list. The entire point is to create a reasonable unit that my friends will let me use.

These are essentially Berzerkers on Juggernauts.

Skullcrushers of Khorne are an Elites choice for a Chaos Space Marines or Khorne Daemonkin army .

Skullcrushers of Khorne: 160 Points

Skullcrusher: WS5 BS4 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld 8 Sv 3+ Unit type: Cavalry
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S4 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 9 Sv 3+ Unit type: Cavalry (Character)

Unit composition: One Skull Champion and two Skullcrushers

Wargear:
- Power Armor
- Bolt Pistol
- Chainaxe
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- Juggernaut of Khorne
- Butcher's Nails

Special Rules:
- Champion of Chaos (Skull Champion only) (Chaos Space Marines faction only)
- Skulls for the Skull Throne! (Skull Champion only) (Khorne Daemonkin faction only)
- Blood For the Blood God! (Khorne Daemonkin faction only)
- Mark of Khorne
- Fearless
- Furious Charge


Options:
- May include up to three additional Skullcrushers of Khorne: 50 pts/model
- Any model may replace their bolt pistol with a Plasma Pistol: 15 pts/model
- Any model may take items from the Melee Weapons list
- Any model may take Melta bombs: 5 pts/model
- The unit may take Veterans of the Long War: 2 pts/model
- One model may take an Icon of the Stampede: 20 pts

Butcher's Nails: A model with the Butcher's Nails wargear has the Feel No Pain special rule.

Icon of Stampede: Adds +1 to combat resolution. Grants the unit's attacks the Rending special rule, including Hammer of Wrath attacks.

 

[venomlust]

Now, these are the same cost as their Space Wolf counterparts, but I feel like they balance out. This comparison is based purely on the unit, and not any effects other units in their respective armies can bestow upon them:

Space Wolf exclusives:
- +1 Leadership
- Thunder Hammer
- Storm Shield
- And They Shall Know No Fear
- Acute Senses
- Boltgun laugh

Chaos Exclusives:
- +1 WS
- Champion of Chaos
- Rage
- Feel No Pain
- Fearless
- Furious Charge
- Veterans of the Long War
- Chainaxe laugh
- Aura of Dark Glory


What do you think?

 

[MidnightSun]

They seem to have a big resiliency problem, but they absolutely murder everything on the charge (7 WS5 S6 Rending attacks each, all kinds of yes) so I'd say it works out - I'd be happy to let you use them at any rate.

I'd probably want to give them 2+ armour to fit in with how Juggernauts have typically been portrayed, but that'd drive their price up a fair bit.

 

[venomlust]

They seem to have a big resiliency problem, but they absolutely murder everything on the charge (7 WS5 S6 Rending attacks each, all kinds of yes) so I'd say it works out - I'd be happy to let you use them at any rate.

I'd probably want to give them 2+ armour to fit in with how Juggernauts have typically been portrayed, but that'd drive their price up a fair bit.

I can see my friends taking issue with the 2+ save, to be honest. This is simply an assumption, and I may not be giving them enough credit.

Maybe Fleshmetal at 10 points per mini?

 

[MidnightSun]

I was just going off of how a Juggernaut gives you +2 to your armour save in Fantasy, and used to give Bloodcrushers a 3+ Armour Save in 40k. I guess the T5 signifies the increased resilience enough already?

Fleshmetal for 10pts is pretty reasonable though; expensive enough not to be a must-take, but not outside the realm of viability.

 

[venomlust]

I was just going off of how a Juggernaut gives you +2 to your armour save in Fantasy, and used to give Bloodcrushers a 3+ Armour Save in 40k. I guess the T5 signifies the increased resilience enough already?

Fleshmetal for 10pts is pretty reasonable though; expensive enough not to be a must-take, but not outside the realm of viability.

As far as the Chaos Lord taking a Juggernaut or a Space Wolf taking a Thunderwolf Mount, yeah they both get +1T. Of course the TWC can take Storm Shields, but that isn't an option in our codex whatsoever. In the spirit of the CSM codex, nothing can actually take Fleshmetal as an upgrade so that's why I'd be hesitant. It would obviously make the unit better. I don't think it would be overpowered by any stretch, though.

 

[Mossy Toes]

My general rule of thumb for homebrew is "if I have the option to buy awesome stuff that normal versions of this can't do, I'm going to price it uncompetitively/painfully high--better to shoot for too expensive on my cool unit than too cheap, since friends are way more likely to complain about my broken playing-with-wishlisted-stuff if they're too cheap."

I mean, I don't want to ascribe inhuman powers of game balancing to GW devs, since we all know how often things they throw out are imbalanced one way or another, but... I would just generally err on the side of "slightly too expensive" for the sake of fielding home-bashed rulesets for fun.

So, that in mind, I have to say that I think 3 points per mini for FNP on expensive, multi-wound models feels... pretty dirt cheap. I'd be inclined to price it at least 6 points for the upgrade, so it's actually a choice rather than an auto-include.

With regards to the fleshmetal idea--I don't think that's a good idea, myself. However, looking at what SW have that you don't, I can't help but notice that you don't have any sort of invuln. Juggernauts are daemonic and help protect you, right? Why not give the unit a daemonic 5+ invuln?

Maybe bump up their cost by a decent number of points per model, but balance out the inability to get a 3++ with an automatic 5++ that doesn't lose you a two-weapon attack.

Have you considered just playing playing Space Wolf rules with Khornate models, using the Skullcrusher minis as Thunderwolves? Blood Claws are fairly Berzerker-ish... and you get access to drop pods!

Or even better, Come The Apocalypse allying in Space Wolves alongside your Kharn/AoBF Juggerlord in spawn. The "one eye open" rule would make sense, even, for two competing Khornate warbands working in close concert--always the fear that they'll start chopping each other apart in their madness... just have to have minis painted in 2 different Khornate color schemes to represent the "Space Wolf" warband and the "CSM" warband.

I know that of all people, you actually have the Juggerlord minis to make this work. :laugh:

 

[venomlust]

My general rule of thumb for homebrew is "if I have the option to buy awesome stuff that normal versions of this can't do, I'm going to price it uncompetitively/painfully high--better to shoot for too expensive on my cool unit than too cheap, since friends are way more likely to complain about my broken playing-with-wishlisted-stuff if they're too cheap."

I mean, I don't want to ascribe inhuman powers of game balancing to GW devs, since we all know how often things they throw out are imbalanced one way or another, but... I would just generally err on the side of "slightly too expensive" for the sake of fielding home-bashed rulesets for fun.

So, that in mind, I have to say that I think 3 points per mini for FNP on expensive, multi-wound models feels... pretty dirt cheap. I'd be inclined to price it at least 6 points for the upgrade, so it's actually a choice rather than an auto-include.

Yeah I guess you're right. I'll compromise and make it 5 :biggrin:.

With regards to the fleshmetal idea--I don't think that's a good idea, myself. However, looking at what SW have that you don't, I can't help but notice that you don't have any sort of invuln. Juggernauts are daemonic and help protect you, right? Why not give the unit a daemonic 5+ invuln?

Maybe bump up their cost by a decent number of points per model, but balance out the inability to get a 3++ with an automatic 5++ that doesn't lose you a two-weapon attack.

That's a good idea. I had that rule for the original incarnation of these guys, and I think it will serve them well here too. I'll definitely increase the points per mini by 10 to account for it.

Have you considered just playing playing Space Wolf rules with Khornate models, using the Skullcrusher minis as Thunderwolves? Blood Claws are fairly Berzerker-ish... and you get access to drop pods!

Or even better, Come The Apocalypse allying in Space Wolves alongside your Kharn/AoBF Juggerlord in spawn. The "one eye open" rule would make sense, even, for two competing Khornate warbands working in close concert--always the fear that they'll start chopping each other apart in their madness... just have to have minis painted in 2 different Khornate color schemes to represent the "Space Wolf" warband and the "CSM" warband.

I have considered it. I even bought the Space Wolves codex when it came out for this exact purpose. I've been taking my sweet time putting my army together and painting it, so alongside a million other projects it hasn't happened yet :laugh:. I could put them on Juggernauts, but I planned to keep them on thunderwolves wearing brass collars. Though, as you point out:

I know that of all people, you actually have the Juggerlord minis to make this work. :laugh:

Aaaaand how! I'm still waiting for the 1% chance that a Khorne supplement with rules for 'zerkers on juggies will come out soon.

 

[Mossy Toes]

Aaaaand how! I'm still waiting for the 1% chance that a Khorne supplement with rules for 'zerkers on juggies will come out soon.

The rumors are still up and kicking, for all that they are probably just mis-identification of the Archaon Khorne End Times wave...

 

[venomlust]

The rumors are still up and kicking, for all that they are probably just mis-identification of the Archaon Khorne End Times wave...

Yup. :cray:

 

[neferhet]

My proposals are in lime

Skullcrushers of Khorne are an Elites choice for a Chaos Space Marines army.

Skullcrushers of Khorne: 160 Points

Skullcrusher: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 8 Sv 3+
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Wargear:
- Power Armor
- Bolt Pistol
- Chain Axe
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- Juggernaut of Khorne

Special Rules:
- Champion of Chaos (Skull Champion only)
- Mark of Khorne
- Fearless
- Furious Charge
- Daemonic
- Deep Strike

Options:
- May include up to three additional Skullcrushers of Khorne: 50 pts/model
- Any model may replace their bolt pistol with a Plasma Pistol: 10 pts/model
- One model every three may take items from the Melee Weapons list
- Skull Champion may take Melta bombs: 5 pts
- Skull Champion may take Butcher's Nails: 5 pts
- Skull Champion may take Fleshmetal: 10 pts
- The unit may take Veterans of the Long War: 2 pts/model
_________________________________________________________________________

There...upped base cost, played with options a bit (to tone down regular models in favour of the champion, who can become quite a beasty), but added daemonic fo some funny Daemon characters shenanigans, joining the unit (and also fear, might come handy), and most important deepstrike. Also, Chainaxes should be a base equipment for zerkers, let's not fuck around
Removed rending, because no zerks, nor skullcrushers have it. with AP4 axes they're still good.
I think i made them a mix between a mortal and daemonic unit...
What do you think?

 

[venomlust]

My proposals are in lime

Skullcrushers of Khorne are an Elites choice for a Chaos Space Marines army.

Skullcrushers of Khorne: 160 Points

Skullcrusher: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 8 Sv 3+
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Wargear:
- Power Armor
- Bolt Pistol
- Chain Axe
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- Juggernaut of Khorne

Special Rules:
- Champion of Chaos (Skull Champion only)
- Mark of Khorne
- Fearless
- Furious Charge
- Daemonic
- Deep Strike

Options:
- May include up to three additional Skullcrushers of Khorne: 50 pts/model
- Any model may replace their bolt pistol with a Plasma Pistol: 10 pts/model
- One model every three may take items from the Melee Weapons list
- Skull Champion may take Melta bombs: 5 pts
- Skull Champion may take Butcher's Nails: 5 pts
- Skull Champion may take Fleshmetal: 10 pts
- The unit may take Veterans of the Long War: 2 pts/model
_________________________________________________________________________

There...upped base cost, played with options a bit (to tone down regular models in favour of the champion, who can become quite a beasty), but added daemonic fo some funny Daemon characters shenanigans, joining the unit (and also fear, might come handy), and most important deepstrike. Also, Chainaxes should be a base equipment for zerkers, let's not fuck around
Removed rending, because no zerks, nor skullcrushers have it. with AP4 axes they're still good.
I think i made them a mix between a mortal and daemonic unit...
What do you think?

I like it many aspects of it, for sure.

My original goal was simply to have Thunderwolf Cavalry in a CSM army by swapping out the upgrades that we just couldn't take (Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields, and so on). I think I'd prefer to maintain that original vision for the unit, but perhaps shift things around.

For example, the Icon of Wrath is totally pointless, because as Berzerkers they already have Furious Charge, and as Cavalry they already have Fleet. My original unit idea had an icon bestow Rending (I think, I don't remember exactly), and maybe that's the answer here, too.

I'd definitely prefer to have Rending over the 2+ save from Fleshmetal, as my flavor is max offensive output. Rending is sort of a crucial ability, because other than Kharn/Juggerlord with AoBF I'd have to rely on power axe terminators (or Chosen, eww) for AP2 (Or Daemon allies but that's a whole other ball o' wax). As it stands within the game now, that's all CSM have to work with. I think Rending is a fair trade because it is by no means guaranteed, and all the 2+ units I go up against have Invuln saves anyway.

As for the special weapons and melta bombs, I figured, if the Thunderwolves can take them per-model, why shouldn't Chaos be able to?

I'd love Plasma Pistols to be 10 points, but I figure since the universal price is 15 I'd leave it. Makes them rather pointless, but is in line with other units.

Deep Strike sounds cool, as does the Daemon rule, but in my mind these are just mortals atop their daemon mount. The 5+ save is still there via the Aura of Dark Glory without a true Daemon Save allowing things like Grimoire, Cursed Earth, and other things. Definitely not ruling those out, though. If a Chaos force can DS Terminators, Raptors, or whatever else onto the table, there's no reason a Sorcerer aboard a ship couldn't teleport some 'zerkers and their mounts down to the surface.

If not outright Rending, maybe make their Hammer of Wrath hits count as AP2? This could represent being smashed by a fucking Juggernaut (bitch). Along with this, maybe the Icon will allow the unit to run during the shooting phase and subsequently charge during the assault phase. If Tau and Eldar can pull all kinds of shooting/running nonsense, I think one unit running and assaulting is fair.

 

[neferhet]

My original goal was simply to have Thunderwolf Cavalry in a CSM army

mmh. I might have missed this proposition

As for the special weapons and melta bombs, I figured, if the Thunderwolves can take them per-model, why shouldn't Chaos be able to?

'cause we have a sub-par codex and we should keep the trend even in home rules :biggrin: you right i guess, just my nerfbat-daemon itching inside...

I'd love Plasma Pistols to be 10 points, but I figure since the universal price is 15 I'd leave it. Makes them rather pointless, but is in line with other units.

you make me cry venom...my little dream shattered...

If not outright Rending, maybe make their Hammer of Wrath hits count as AP2? This could represent being smashed by a fucking Juggernaut (bitch). Along with this, maybe the Icon will allow the unit to run during the shooting phase and subsequently charge during the assault phase. If Tau and Eldar can pull all kinds of shooting/running nonsense, I think one unit running and assaulting is fair.

well, well...
hear this, then:
Skullcrushers of Khorne are an Elites choice for a Chaos Space Marines army.

Skullcrushers of Khorne: 160 Points

Skullcrusher: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 8 Sv 3+
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Wargear:
- Power Armor
- Bolt Pistol
- Chain Axe
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- Juggernaut of Khorne
- Butcher's Nails: FnP (everybody, all the time!)

Special Rules:
- Champion of Chaos (Skull Champion only)
- Mark of Khorne
- Fearless
- Furious Charge
- Deep Strike

Options:
- May include up to three additional Skullcrushers of Khorne: 50 pts/model
- Any model may replace their bolt pistol with a Plasma Pistol: 15 pts/model
- Every model may take items from the Melee Weapons list
- Every model may take Melta bombs: 5 pts
- Any one model may take the Icon of Stampede: 20 pts
- The unit may take Veterans of the Long War: 2 pts/model

---Icon of Stampede---
.as any icon, +1 combat resolution
.Hammer of Wrath hits caused by this unit have Rending
.The unit gains the Rending special rule

So, less daemonic shit. Rending as a premium, but also with rending HoW !
More mortal, i guess. The aura of dark glory seemed a bit over the top, to me. i'd rather give them a nice FnP more berzerker-feeling, i guess
Anyhow, your version is just fine (but they need the chainaxe as base )i'd be totally ok in letting you play them. I'm just fucking around with some rulemashing

 

[venomlust]

mmh. I might have missed this proposition

'cause we have a sub-par codex and we should keep the trend even in home rules :biggrin: you right i guess, just my nerfbat-daemon itching inside...

you make me cry venom...my little dream shattered...



well, well...
hear this, then:
Skullcrushers of Khorne are an Elites choice for a Chaos Space Marines army.

Skullcrushers of Khorne: 160 Points

Skullcrusher: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 8 Sv 3+
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Wargear:
- Power Armor
- Bolt Pistol
- Chain Axe
- Frag Grenades
- Krak Grenades
- Juggernaut of Khorne
- Butcher's Nails: FnP (everybody, all the time!)

Special Rules:
- Champion of Chaos (Skull Champion only)
- Mark of Khorne
- Fearless
- Furious Charge
- Deep Strike

Options:
- May include up to three additional Skullcrushers of Khorne: 50 pts/model
- Any model may replace their bolt pistol with a Plasma Pistol: 15 pts/model
- Every model may take items from the Melee Weapons list
- Every model may take Melta bombs: 5 pts
- Any one model may take the Icon of Stampede: 20 pts
- The unit may take Veterans of the Long War: 2 pts/model

---Icon of Stampede---
.as any icon, +1 combat resolution
.Hammer of Wrath hits caused by this unit have Rending
.The unit gains the Rending special rule

So, less daemonic shit. Rending as a premium, but also with rending HoW !
More mortal, i guess. The aura of dark glory seemed a bit over the top, to me. i'd rather give them a nice FnP more berzerker-feeling, i guess
Anyhow, your version is just fine (but they need the chainaxe as base )i'd be totally ok in letting you play them. I'm just fucking around with some rulemashing

Hey, I'm loving the back and forth, so nothing but gratitude here! :good:

I'm liking the look of that unit very much, pretty much captures everything. A wily Balestar Sorc could still possibly give them an Invuln save, a Telepathy Sorc/Be'lakor can hide them pretty well, so it's all good. And really, not everything needs an invuln save. FnP is plenty nice.

*edit*
@neferhet I've edited in most of the changes you suggested above, but I kept the base cost at 150.

I'm curious how you would best utilize Deep Strike on a unit like this. Obviously they can't charge after doing so, but they could definitely set themselves up for one.

 

[neferhet]

Well, yeah. No invuln makes them viable at 150 even with DS.
I can see them deepstriking behind some spawns or zooming rhinos or LOS blocking stuff.
Next turn, being cavalry, thy could even move and charge from midfield...so i'd say a cautious and no so deep DS, possibly alongside another guaranteed chargers (say spawns or landraider+marines or bikers)
Also, i can see some nasty things with a couple of hidden fists in there
5 guys, 2 powerfists, champion w/icon, 2 meltabombs 330 pts of death and murder. Pair along with 2 units of 5 nurgle spawns and 5 nurgle bikers with dual plasma and for around 830 pts you have an hell of a murder team. 2 cultists squads, a biker sorc with telepathy and voilà, 1100 pts, aiming at 1500 i'd add 2 vindicators and a maulerfiend. The party is ON!!!

 

[venomlust]

Well, yeah. No invuln makes them viable at 150 even with DS.
I can see them deepstriking behind some spawns or zooming rhinos or LOS blocking stuff.
Next turn, being cavalry, thy could even move and charge from midfield...so i'd say a cautious and no so deep DS, possibly alongside another guaranteed chargers (say spawns or landraider+marines or bikers)
Also, i can see some nasty things with a couple of hidden fists in there
5 guys, 2 powerfists, champion w/icon, 2 meltabombs 330 pts of death and murder. Pair along with 2 units of 5 nurgle spawns and 5 nurgle bikers with dual plasma and for around 830 pts you have an hell of a murder team. 2 cultists squads, a biker sorc with telepathy and voilà, 1100 pts, aiming at 1500 i'd add 2 vindicators and a maulerfiend. The party is ON!!!

RAWR! Hell yeah, that sounds badass!

Also, the Khorne codex is real! Still unlikely we'll see Zerkernauts, but it's never been more likely than now!

 

[venomlust]

Well so much for Zerkernauts :laugh:. Will proceed with giving these boys a go.

 

[venomlust]

Updated the unit based on some feedback at B&C, perhaps they are more "reasonable" now.

 

[neferhet]

cool man
weren't they Str5 ?
Also, noted the Daemonkin addition, love that!
definitely the way to run them!

 

[venomlust]

cool man
weren't they Str5 ?
Also, noted the Daemonkin addition, love that!
definitely the way to run them!

They were, but i realized Juggernauts, unlike Thunderwolves, don't add +1 S. Was trying to figure out how to put that back in .