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Ok, so heres an idea:

Skill vs Army vs Luck, which is more important?

I like to think of Warhammer 40K (and other games to) kida like a skill check in a typical RPG. To borrow a bit of D&D logic here, imagine I had a D&D character with a “Warhammer 40K” skill linked to intelligence. So something like

Skill………………………Attribute Bonus…. Skill Ranks… Total
Warhammer 40K….+2……………………….4…………………+6

Then the army is something like an equipment bonus. The more competitive the army, the higher the bonus is.

So what do you guys think? What would be the range of skill levels? What kind of typical army lists would have what kind of bonuses?
 

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Unlike [Skill] + [Bonus] = [Result] in D&D, if writing a good army list is part of the "bonus", then I would suggest that the bonus is actually more important than your skill in actually moving the models once they're on the table. You need to have the right tools to do the job, or all the skill in the world won't save you.
 

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Unlike [Skill] + [Bonus] = [Result] in D&D, if writing a good army list is part of the "bonus", then I would suggest that the bonus is actually more important than your skill in actually moving the models once they're on the table. You need to have the right tools to do the job, or all the skill in the world won't save you.
Yes. Unfortunately, for how the game works, list building is several orders of magnitude more important than actual table tactics, and as a matter of fact, unless you're just terrible at moving and picking targets, luck will still be more important than skill.

In 40K, actual game tactics once the table is set and the armies about to be deployed count very little. There's other miniature or tabletop wargames where the scale is a lot more balanced, to the point that I have started to doubt that 40K makes you unlearn tactics; don't get me started on how I can never mention Memoir '44 again because of all the bitching and screaming and whining that their foot infantry squads don't get saves when they're left out in the open against nested machinegun fire, insisting that the game specifically interprets this as soldiers jumping in the way of bullets and saying it's shit and they will never play it ever again.

Or maybe I just have terrible people to play with, that may also be the case.
 

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Yes. Unfortunately, for how the game works, list building is several orders of magnitude more important than actual table tactics, and as a matter of fact, unless you're just terrible at moving and picking targets, luck will still be more important than skill.

In 40K, actual game tactics once the table is set and the armies about to be deployed count very little. There's other miniature or tabletop wargames where the scale is a lot more balanced, to the point that I have started to doubt that 40K makes you unlearn tactics; don't get me started on how I can never mention Memoir '44 again because of all the bitching and screaming and whining that their foot infantry squads don't get saves when they're left out in the open against nested machinegun fire, insisting that the game specifically interprets this as soldiers jumping in the way of bullets and saying it's shit and they will never play it ever again.

Or maybe I just have terrible people to play with, that may also be the case.
I think every eldar and dark eldar player is going to disagree with you.

Combined with anyone who has actually read the codex's and understand the rules.

Example. Flyers can only turn 90* and have a minimum of 18" movement.

Knowing that and knowing where to place your units means allot.
 

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I think every eldar and dark eldar player is going to disagree with you.

Combined with anyone who has actually read the codex's and understand the rules.

Example. Flyers can only turn 90* and have a minimum of 18" movement.

Knowing that and knowing where to place your units means allot.
If this is the extent of "skill" influence you can think of, I remain that there is very, very, very little of it and is still wholly inferior to the influence of luck, let alone list building. If you combine the two, actual skill is nearly irrelevant unless it's abysmally low.
 

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If this is the extent of "skill" influence you can think of, I remain that there is very, very, very little of it and is still wholly inferior to the influence of luck, let alone list building. If you combine the two, actual skill is nearly irrelevant unless it's abysmally low.
Play dark eldar.

You'll understand why the things I mentioned are important.
 

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I think that something like 85% of the skill displayed in good quality games of 40k happens in the movement phase, with the other 5% being shooting and 10% melee combat (when it happens).

The trouble is that most people just use the movement phase to get closer to the enemy, or do obvious things like draw LoS to a priority target. There's very little "get down on the tabletop level and place each model exactly where it needs to be". People in general don't understand that the game is won in the movement phase, not in the two that follow.
 

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I think that something like 85% of the skill displayed in good quality games of 40k happens in the movement phase, with the other 5% being shooting and 10% melee combat (when it happens).
:goodpost:

In almost every strategy game, movement and target priority are the keys to winning the game. I would also add..."play to the mission" as a critical tactic. In many games wiping your opponent off the board is a way to win, but most have objectives that will win the game and a good player will exploit that to win even if he has only a handful of models remaining at the end of the game.

Also on the "fact" that list-building is a heavy part of the tactics of 40k...I will agree with the caveat that list-building is far more than the internets wizdom of "pick most point efficient unit and spam"...Tri-drake/wraithlord/riptide lists are a pain in the ass, but rarely win tournaments. Good players have lists that are designed around handling/dealing/ignoring the whole range of threats that will be seen on the table-top, lists that match their preferred play-style or tactics, lists that use internal/external synergy to create powerful/useful combinations that make the army more than the sum of it's parts, and lists that present numerous threats to the opponent.
 

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:goodpost:

Also on the "fact" that list-building is a heavy part of the tactics of 40k...I will agree with the caveat that list-building is far more than the internets wizdom of "pick most point efficient unit and spam"...Tri-drake/wraithlord/riptide lists are a pain in the ass, but rarely win tournaments. Good players have lists that are designed around handling/dealing/ignoring the whole range of threats that will be seen on the table-top, lists that match their preferred play-style or tactics, lists that use internal/external synergy to create powerful/useful combinations that make the army more than the sum of it's parts, and lists that present numerous threats to the opponent.
With that said, there are some armies that benefit much more than others from internal synergy (looking at you taudar/demons). Skill in 40k is being able to overcome that with other less 'powerful' armies. For a while older armies were greatly outclassed (especially Necrons) yet 'skilled' players were still able to show up and win. So while there is definitely an element of skill in 40k, it is usually not found in the tournament players at the top tier because they are typically picking and choosing from the top 'newest' release and then power building from it. I'd be more impressed with the player who places highly not using one of the armies that 60%+ of the other players also showed up with.

On a side note the top table at Feast of Blades this year was 4 riptides/tau spam to Dual wraithknights eldar. I wouldn't say that either of those were extremely skillful armies when you consider the strength each of those lists offer, but also wouldn't say they didn't play well to get to the last table either.
 

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What should players remember about movement in 40k? (I'm genuinely curious)

Having the right tool (or gun, rather) for the job is what I think is most important in 40k. If you have enough good guns that can deal enough consistent and effective damage then you should be fine, but then again I'm no veteran.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What should players remember about movement in 40k? (I'm genuinely curious)

Having the right tool (or gun, rather) for the job is what I think is most important in 40k. If you have enough good guns that can deal enough consistent and effective damage then you should be fine, but then again I'm no veteran.
There's a whole collection of articles about that on this site: (yay! :laugh:)
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=118

Of course, a lot of it is about list building, rather than movement or table skills, but there are some really good ones like:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130321
or:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129612

I'd like to write one or two myself, but I haven't played any real games of 40K in years and a lot has changed since 3rd/4th. (Damn, I want to play. :mad:) But I think the most fundamental tactic of 40K is still "Shoot the choppy stuff, chop the shooty stuff," ...or something like that.
 

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Movement phase stuff is things like:

- distance from your Troops to Objectives, can they reach them by turn 5?
- distance between your own units, can you pass out buffs to units that need them?
- distance from the enemy, knowing the movement and threat ranges of every enemy unit, along with their guns, likely target priority, and indeed their own likely movement options
- using cover to best advantage, including enemy units and friendly units as well as knowing and using the rules for area terrain, ruins, buildings and focus fire so you don't leave models vulnerable to being picked off or assaulted

And I haven't even covered all of the aspects yet, those are off the top of my head. A good general needs to weigh up ALL of those for EVERY unit, and still play at a fast pace to squeeze in the 1800+ tournament games to the time given, usually 90 mins - 2 hours.
 
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