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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think i mentioned this months ago in a post and the thought just occured to me again.

How do the marines of the Crusade/Heresy era rack up alongside the 41st Millenium mob?

I'm curious since the marines in the HH series seem to be depicted with far less mental discipline than the 41st millenium bunch.
What do you guys think? Did the heresy and scouring make the Marines tougher? Do the Chapters being far more selective in their recruits come out as superior combatants to the Legions who could count on massive numbers to achieve victory?
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I don't full understand what you mean? you think the 30k era marines are weaker?

If anything i think the 30k marines are better, they all seem to be alot more free thinkers and generally better personalitys, joking around alot more. Primarchs inspiring them and a walking Emperor aswell. Now they all seem to go through far more rigorous pycho-indoctrination when they become marines. And now are all venrate the god-emperor as opposed to just loyal to the mortal Emperor back in the 30k days (word bearers aside)
 

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The HH marines seemed more human, than the 40k marines, and stronger since they had purrer geneseeds. However from what I understand many of the loyal legions had worst armor than the 41st loyalists.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't full understand what you mean? you think the 30k era marines are weaker?

If anything i think the 30k marines are better, they all seem to be alot more free thinkers and generally better personalitys, joking around alot more. Primarchs inspiring them and a walking Emperor aswell. Now they all seem to go through far more rigorous pycho-indoctrination when they become marines. And now are all venrate the god-emperor as opposed to just loyal to the mortal Emperor back in the 30k days (word bearers aside)
And that's my point. Not only is the Psycho conditioning far superior but they seem to be used to achieving things without having a huge Legion to back them up. Not to mention that veneration of the God Emperor seems to give them a near bottomless core of inner strength to keep going. They don't seem bothered about understanding everything so much as working out how to make it die!
As for the joking about and laughing a lot I'm not sure the Marines in the 41st Millenium lose that. Ragnar Blackmane, Uriel Ventris et al, they all seem pretty capable of joking and talking with others. Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
Anyway. My point is the 41st guys just see a lot tougher to me, the chapters seem to take a LOT more care in their selection of aspirants, they seem to take far longer over the training process, and they have a much harder more ruthless edge to them.

I don't mean in mass combat. Obviously 10'000 marines will trump 100. I mean in the quality of the warriors themselves.
 

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And that's my point. Not only is the Psycho conditioning far superior but they seem to be used to achieving things without having a huge Legion to back them up. Not to mention that veneration of the God Emperor seems to give them a near bottomless core of inner strength to keep going. They don't seem bothered about understanding everything so much as working out how to make it die!
As for the joking about and laughing a lot I'm not sure the Marines in the 41st Millenium lose that. Ragnar Blackmane, Uriel Ventris et al, they all seem pretty capable of joking and talking with others. Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
Anyway. My point is the 41st guys just see a lot tougher to me, the chapters seem to take a LOT more care in their selection of aspirants, they seem to take far longer over the training process, and they have a much harder more ruthless edge to them.

I don't mean in mass combat. Obviously 10'000 marines will trump 100. I mean in the quality of the warriors themselves.
From what I understand the 40k SM armor has more/better abilities, and is even more like a 2nd skin. The crusade era helmets made it like is was not even there, while the more modern ones increased it.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I wouldn't say they were tougher. The Legions conquered entire star systems and could cleanse a planet with little support from the guard. The Chapters on the other hand need alot of support to go to war, using vast amounts of Imperial Guard and/or other allies to take the main brunt of battles while they perform specfic tasks. The pyscho conditioning is a bad thing to me, it just makes them less human and so much more two dimesnional in the majority of cases. I wouldn't say that they had less inner strength either, i've not read any instance in the HH series so far of the marines giving up or running out of steam, the living emperor AND their primarchs drives them forward. Just look at Istvaan III.

And on the point of achieving things without a entire legion backing them up, goes back to the point above that instead of a couple thousand astartes they now have millions of guard troops to fulfil the role instead. There havent really been any instances in the HH to compare them to 40k marines who are now facing chaos deamons, tyranids etc all the time.
 

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The Chapters on the other hand need alot of support to go to war, using vast amounts of Imperial Guard and/or other allies to take the main brunt of battles while they perform specfic tasks.
Not in my opinion... You could take the Assault on Black Reach as an example, a company of Ultramarines fought against a whole Waaagh!nwith barely any support...
 

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I'd have to cast my support behind the Crusade-Era marines. Excluding the Primarchs, the Emperor, or the psyco-indoctrination -- the Marines of an era previously were more innovative, and less restricted in their combat doctrines.

The 41st Millenium Chapters, most of them follow the Codex Astartes and declare it a holy text. The Crusade-Era Marines did not have such rigorous standards, and their combat doctrines, while specialized, were still not set and subject to innovation in battle.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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True and for that i have a bit of an issue with Assault on Black Reach. Not read it myself but how big was the Waaagh, it cant have been a big one or massively powerful as otherwise that would be absurd. Almost every other significant waagh involves multiple chapters, not companys but entire chapters, titan legions and masses of imperial guard. For 1 company of Ultramarines to defeat a waagh on their own just seems a bit over-glorifying.

And exactly, the codex astartes just seems to limit the tactical flare and specialisation of the Legions in the crusade era. Back in 30k all the legions tended to have specific roles and combat styles which made them infinitly more interesting. It's why in 40k i prefer the chapters who go against the codex such as the Wolves as it just makes them more interesting.
 

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Not read it myself but how big was the Waaagh, it cant have been a big one or massively powerful as otherwise that would be absurd.
If I remember correctly it was ca. 50 000 orks with a bunch of custom shootas that penetrated Leman Russ and Power Armor with ease...
 

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Id imagine 40k SMs to be the better soldiers. Their faith in the emperor provides them with immense inner strength. Also as has been said the 30k marines seem a lot more human, to me this isnt a great trait in combat the 40k lot have much more discipline and are more like weapons than the 30k bunch
 

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This is a tough one. When you compare them, the 40k marines are taken in and trained from their early teens, with probably a far more advanced training regime over a longer period, but 30k marines were already battle hardened veterans of the Unification Wars before they underwent the transformation, with only the very toughest of them surviving, so all it did was refine them in to even more efficient killing machines.

I think the point about the 30k's being more independent and free thinking is a good one. The codex is extremely restricting, actively discouraging thinking outside the box (Uriel Ventris anyone?), so I think they may have been quicker to respond to a tactical situation, or find it easier to adapt.

There might also be an issue with the fact that in 30k the geneseed was still fresh and shiney, and may have been diluted, or worn down somewhat in the following 10 millennia. In BL fiction there seems to be a theme of the HH traitor marines thinking of 40k marines as smaller, paler imitations of the originals. While ingrained arrogance and exposure to the warp and it's corrupting, enhancing influence probably plays a part in this, maybe there is a grain of truth in it. We know there is something to this in the fact that many chapters have seen particular implants slowly fade or stop working completely.

I have to say, I think it might work out a draw, with the 30k boys having all of the above, but the 40k's have the more modern marks of armour and weaponry.

Id imagine 40k SMs to be the better soldiers. Their faith in the emperor provides them with immense inner strength.
The 30k marines also had great faith in the Emperor as their creator and gene father, and drew strength from his vision for humanity. They just didn't see him as a god.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Agreed, the 40k marines may get inner strength from the god-emperor, but the 30k marines got the exact same inner strength from both the living, fighting, breathing Emperor and their Primarchs. The 30k marines were also not all old already at time of transformation. A vast majority of them were still teenagers just like in 40k, the Space Wolves 13th company being an exception to this. Luther and some other Dark Angels simply weren't turned. The majority of the marines were still the same age as 40k ones are, the terran ones probably being even better, having been transformed with fresh gene seed and under by the Emperor himself, if anything i would expect them to be better than 40k marines.
 

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I have a feeling the 30k marines were less selective with their recruits than the 40k ones.

Crusading armies were constantly at a war footing. Also they were generally limited to a single recruiting planet like current chapters. Combined with the much larger size of a legion (anywhere from 10,000 to 200,000(?)), you just can't afford to be as picky.

In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."

The codex later goes on to state that the Codex Astartes was designed to identify such weaknesses and expunge them. It says that a Space Marine must be created and trained slowly while also closely monitoring the gene-seed to ensure purity. Furthermore, "only those of the sternest character would be chosen."

There may have been great heroes amongst the Legions during the Crusade, but I'd like to think the average stock has improved in the last 10,000 years.
 

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In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
QUOTE]

I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor.
 

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In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor. Several HH mentions that you either passed or died, during the tests.
 

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Right after that sentence I quoted it says, "The Chaos powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus' troops against the Emperor."

So apparently it was both physical and mental. In short, bad in the complete sense.
 

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Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
No surprise then that Uriel is considered as rather a maverick, and verging on heretical. He was not a popular choice for company captain.
 

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Indeed, it seems the more like a 30k marine you become, the more of an outcast you become. And the 40k gene seed is much much weaker than it is now i thought, some chapters don't even have all the implants anymore as they are lost to them.
 

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On the subject of the Codex Astartes, I'd like to say that while in many cases it does dictate a set reaction to a situation, it also encompasses a large number of effective tactica for nearly any battle situation. It also ironed out the loyalty and power balance of the Space Marine forces. The reason a Chapter can no longer simply go to war on its own is the whole point: to prevent another horrible rampage.

The reason I say horrible rampage is because I agree that a company of Space Marines will certainly perform best with support from the Imperial Guard and Navy, a whole Chpater is meant to be an independent body of war. It's been stated in several of the SM codexes that a Chapter has the resources to conquer multiple star systems independently, so I wouldn't quite peg them and Guard-dependent.

Back to the Codex Astartes, not all Chapters follow its precepts to the letter. The Blood Angels successors are more aggressive and reckless than the codex dictates, and the Space Wolves are similar in this regard. The Blood Ravens are also quite at odds with the codex, their Librarians encouraging the Chapter to various acts outside the bounds of the Codex.

I'll have more later, but I'm out of time at the moment :p
 
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