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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Well I'm bored current and looks like Thousand Sons is a long way off. So I decided to see if i could make a HH Thousand Sons looking army at 1000pts.

First off I needed to check each of the current legion bonuses. This led me to either Ironhand for the nice -1S on people shooting them (representing some form of psychic barriers) and the ability to get +1 to invulnerable saves.
The other option was to go Word Bearers. This is purely down to the ability to buy any char the ability to be a psychic. Also due to the way it is, you can also be the most powerful psychics as well in 30K (buying a centurion lv2 librarian burning lore makes him lv3 which 1 spell must be bio or telepath.

So here is the list at 1k pts.

2x Centurion - librarian ml2, burning lore, artificer, refractor, force weapon

Would likely go for mace and hope for ironarm and endurance for fnp and ew. Killing stuff with Smite. Enfeeble and life leech also being good.
If not sword or axe and go telepath for invis and all that. Psychic shriek being a nice bonus.

2 x Rapier - laser destroyer

Sepperated in to 2 units and used to kill dreads, contempts or things like preds and vindi.

2 x 10 Tactical Marines

Armed as normal, just there to be the mandatory guys and hopefully be objective takers and meatshields for the libbys.

Preditor - exterminator plasma, heavy bolter sides, combi bolter

Vindicator - combi bolter

Both for troop/termy killers or back up against tanks.

So what ya think?

I did previously dropped 1 libby to have a Praetor with paragon blade, iron halo and burning lore, but that required 1 less laser rapier and i had some pts kicking about i think i used to give the tacts melee weapons, or just having a normal heavy bolter rapier.

Edit/side note: The theme of the army i will likely be facing first i think is

Imperial Fist

legion praitor - paragon, iron halo.
2 x 10 tacticals
vindi
contemptor (melee armed)
5 termies
and various options of gear on them.
 

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Burning Lore is a Praetor/Diabolist/Centurion/Consul upgrade (as of LACAL). Going by the wording, despite it being available for a Centurion, a Librarian cannot choose it. I've already sent an email to FW regarding this; their answer was that it's only intended for non-consul Centurions, or the listed consuls/praetors - i.e not Librarians.

I'm not sold on Artificer either due to how saves work. You don't have a Command Squad or Terminator Squad to slot him in, and if facing a Praetor in a challenge, you've lost your save anyway due to AP2. And a Refractor is useless unless you have a majority 5+ Save anyway. Might as well take a Boarding Shield which gives you a 5++ in combat and defensive grenades. As said you have to decide on your Force Weapon - I like the Axe due to AP2. Not sure why you'd go for a mace. The AP2 is more preferential in most situations than S7. It at least allows you to take on vehicles with the help of Iron Arm. Maul allows you to glance without needing Iron Arm, but AP2 lets you hit the 7+ should you face a none-AV13 or come up against a 2+. Alternatively, Meltabombs. A Force Sword is near useless unless you're carving through infantry. And you can't really carve up infantry at this level.

What you've got is similar to the Imperial Fists lists - although his Praetor kind of beats the Librarian unless you can get to strike before him, or catch him with a Vindicator. The Fists Tacticals outclass yours, and equipped with BS5 bolters with more of them, he's going to outclass yours. However he is struggling for AT - Imp Fist Terminators have access to either S7 AP2 or S6 Rending for AT (or CC Pfists/Hammers/Chainfists), and other than a Vindicator or Contemptor, AT is lacking heavily. You have a range benefit against the Imperial Fists - the Las Destroyers getting a turn or two against the Contemptor or Vindi's. That gives your Vindi an even chance of destroying the opponents Vindi, or taking out the Terms. It's a fairly even list. The one thing I'd perhaps suggest is maybe taking Las sponsons somehow on the Predator to help with taking down the enemy armour. Dropping the Burning Lore (like said, an illegal option, in FW's eyes, and common sense's eyes) would give you those points necessary to do so. At higher points, I'd drop the sponsons full stop, unless you need the AT.

HQ;
ML 2 Librarian, Force Axe, Boarding Shield, Meltabombs 130

Elites;
Rapier Weapons Battery (1 Laser Gun) 55
Rapier Weapons Battery (1 Laser Gun) 55

Troops
Tactical Squad 150
Tactical Squad 150

FA
-

HS
Predator; Plasma Executioner Destroyer, Lascannon 150
Vindicator; 120

This comes in at 810pts, giving, assuming a 1000pt Limit (his list is 920pts total without additional upgrades short of what you've mentioned) 190pts left - just right for a Contemptor Mortis with Lascannons which can help with AV, leaving your Vindicator free to concentrate on the Terminators. Alternatively, you could pick up another Lasplas Predator, this time maybe picking up the Command Tank upgrade just in case you're facing a none-30K Deep Striking list (hint, Deep Strikers do not like 3 S7 AP2 Templates landing on them while they're bunched up) - assuming of course that you play by the assumption that Betrayal is the actual wording for "command tank" and that the copy paste of the Command Tank from the Stormblade was in error in the LACAL.

Remember that Terminators cannot deep strike unless you're playing Orbital Assault - which he'd just be able to get - which honestly may be a problem.



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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Thanks for the advice.
The reason for the Force Mace / Staff in part was fluffy, but also if selecting Biomancy for the lore and having 3 goes at it. Getting IronArm would be nice, and as that grants you SMASH! then it would nicely give me AP2 on a weapon that has force and a good S9 and concussion. HOWEVER if I can only get up to ML2 then the chance is reduced to much IMOO to risk it.
So also with that if my Centurion who is upgraded to Librarian can't have Burning Lore as well to rank him up to 3 (It seems though Centurion is Listed as one of the options of a person who can have it, I didn't twig when I also saw Chaplin next to it that the Centurion is no longer a Centurion when he upgrades to be one of the consul). THOUGH I did just check my Book 1 and that allows you to take up to 3 levels at 25pts base and +20 per level, while LACAL seems to only allow 2... though this has not been FAQ'd for Book 1 FAQ so may be a misprint in the later book (not everyone who had bought the 3 original books probably bought the little red ones). If that is the case I would save myself 2 lots of 10pts by not having Burning Lore on each libby and taking the additional level as normal.
Do you know if they have confirmed either way on this issue and if so where?

Likely chance though is that unless I go for that option I listed above with the Burning Lore Praetor as a leader I will then swap to IronHands fitting the rules a bit better as I had only selected Word Bearers for the purpose of having that additional Psychic Level. Though later it would be fun playing with Daemons to help :)
Things like the -1S to shooting against them and being able to buy better Invuln saves fits with the whole 'Divination' or 'Shield of Force' side of things, and the Stand and Fight rule meaning they are more slow and methodical rather than running in and killing stuff sounds more like the Sons that I have seen before, preferring to shoot the enemy than dirty themselves up with this close combat lark.
 

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I believe that FW twigged to the idea of having 3 160pt Mastery 3 Psykers being a little bit too powerful - hence the change, rather than copy-paste issues with LACAL. I only tend to take Books 1-3 into account when it's fairly obvious there's been something like a copy-paste error (i,e command tanks), as opposed to an edit regarding the rules - such as removing access to L3 psykers - after all, even Lorgar is *only* considered a L3, having every old tom-dick-harry with access to l3 for a 3rd of the cost removes the gloss of those units. Hence - LACAL is what I go by in regards to the Librarian's Mastery Level.

In regards to Iron Hands, I see that as being less fluffy than taking Word Bearers or Alpha Legion. After all, not every Thousand Son was a Sorcerer, and just comes across as power gaming to my eyes, as Iron Hands are widely regarded as the strongest - although YMMV. I think Alpha Legion fits better due to the tricks they can pull. There is absolutely nothing prior to the rubric which suggests that the Thousand Sons are explicitly slow and methodical - as opposed to the Death Guard or Iron Hands are - often the opposite, in battle as they tend to know the result of the actions so can go as quick as they need to be.

And Be'lakor as an ally is particularly nasty due to the lack of high strength ignores cover - short of the Typhon - and there's the reason it's considered the best Lord of War.



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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Fair points above. Though TS did have a lot higher frequency of Psykers being the ones promoted in to the higher ranks of the legion, and seemed to actively seek them out for recruitment in to there covern.
True a lot of the TS info comes from post HH, but almost all the characters there are more slow and methodical, but of course that is likely to be because they are all sorcerers.

Sidenote though...
What would you expect to be the Thousand Sons special rules?
My guess is praetor being able to upgrade to librarian. Maybe some slighty more reliable manifesting of powers, such as reroll 1's on casting.
Other than that Spacewolves hating them is the only thing that springs to mind :p, and they have pet daemons as well.

Sub Sidenote...
What would your version of a Thousand Sons looking army at 1k pts, given the current pallet of legions we have? I currently have a load of 40k stuff and a few bits of 30k that I have bought because I like it or use stuff like the Rapiers in my Renegades and Heretics army, though they are once again 80s/90s ones (having just got a load of Clan Escher gangers from Necromunda to go with my Cawdor, Ratskins and Redemptionists, it is more Rene'guards and Hera'chicks). But I have LOADS of Deathguard 40k from the early 90s (though also have Typhus and recently bought Typhon and Mortarion as I like the models) and a load of Thousand Sons. As the Armour hasn't changed since HH for them, I thought I would look at Thousand Sons. Also have loads of 90s daemons as well but that is beside the point :).
So back on Topic. I don't want a WAAC army, I do want something fluffy, But not so hampered by fluffiness that it will be stomped all the time. As said I also have Deathguard, so I could wait, but Deathguard in 30k seem to be very dull... and the Scythes are pointless :p
So as said before with what I have red about them before is to get anywhere in the chain of command in TS is you need to know the magic word to get in... and unlike other legions who have lodge badges and stuff the word really is magical.
 
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