[Crimzzen]

Hey everyone,

I've played this list a few times now (proxy) and so far I like it. It has a few problems with gunlines (it depends if I can make it there or not) but can handle its own against magic heavy or combat heavy armies. Before I buy the rest of the models (I have a few from my 40k daemons) I just wanted to see if there was any advice.

Lord - Bloodthirster - obsidian armour, immortal fury

"3+ ignores magic abilities and rerolls hits"

Hero - Herald of Tzeentch - Master of Sorcery (Life), winged

"Life is such an amazing lore now, giving the thirster +4T or healing back units is great. Lifebloom is also amazing."

Hero - Herald of Tzeentch - Master of Sorcery (Heavens, Life, Beasts - not sure yet), winged

"Comet from heavens is good for dealing with gunlines if you can get it off but beasts has some great buffs".

Hero - Herald of Khorne - BSB, Armour of Khorne, Juggernaut

Hero - Herald of Khorne - Armour of Khorne, Juggernaut

Core - 20 Bloodletters - Full Command (Banner that adds D6" to charge) + Herald

Core - 20 Bloodletters - Full Command (Banner that adds D6" to charge) + Herald

Core - 20 Plaguebearers - Full Command (Banner that allows rerolls to wound)

"Probably not the best choice but I have 20 of em for 40k. With the change to regen, the herald isn't really worth it. Ultimately, they're still T4 with poison attacks and a 5++. Still a great unit"

Core - 5 Furies

"Warmachine hunters"

Core - 5 Furies

Special - 5 Hounds of Khorne

Rare - 6 Flamers of Tzeentch - Pyrocaster

"Ranged support"

Rare - 5 Bloodcrushers of Khorne - Standard Bearer (Banner that adds D6" to charge)

"With the new stomp attack, these guys are actually better than standard cavalry (which rely on you breaking on the charge). Instead, each model puts out essentially 5 attacks at either str 5 or 6. Expensive and will probably require a bit of help from the lore of life to make it there."

Thoughts?

 

[Tim/Steve]

I hadnt realised how badly plaguebearers get affected with the new rulles- the herald should be hidden in a deep dark hole, he'll not be needed again.

I think a lot of the daemon players up by me are looking at Lv4 horror units to cover their core requirement- lv4 means extra to cast but more importantly you get extra addiitons to all your dispel roles (and tzeentch magic is still awesome). I dont think the bloodthirster will be as effective as before.. instead I would prefer a keeper- set it up so the enemy is going to have trouble hitting him (torment blade, allure) and with the life sorcerer it should live forever... add into that its ability to force people to charge and you have an enormously powerful unit. They dont even need to make it into combat: if you have first turn then you can move up, force almost anything in the enemy deployment zone that isnt shielded to charge you and then if they dont make it you can charge them in return- a unit such as outriders can potentially charge 20-21", they are unlikely to but that doesnt matter... you've stopped them from shooting and will smash them next turn.

I think that daemonettes may well come to the fore with the new rules- higher numbers of attacks, addition of ASF and their speed will all do well: they'll be hitting most things on a 3+ with a reroll, and wounding on a 4+/5+ with huge numbers of attacks (and forcing people into charges or to hold against you is pretty mighty).
I cant see plaguebearers being used so much anymore, they are quite easy to kill without the regen and are very very slow (sure the charge is easier but you still have to get in a position to charge). The only benefit they get is the new fear rules, which help them more then the other core (except horrors) as they now have the chance to be hittingthe enemy on a 3+ while they gte hit on 5+... no auto-breaks but it is now every single turn of combat... gotta love that,

 

[olderplayer]

Ditto on plaguebearers, they went from excellent tar pit to overpriced unit with the restriction that they either get regen or ward save.

Did a test of 37 bloodletters vs. 50 high elf spearmen of approximately same points. Bloodletters win just a bit more but are made a lot better by herald of khorne in unit. Get the bloodletters into combat fast to reduce shooting and magic casualties and they will do fine in 8th ed. Demonettes may prove to be very good with the ASF, high I and daemon ward save and improved by 8th ed.

Are you over the 25% rare limit? Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends also get stomp. A unit of 3 fiends is an interesting alternative to the overdone bloodcrushers. Also, fleshhounds are still very good with the MR adding to their ward save when magic is cast at them.

My understanding is that characters only get Look Out Sir? when in or near units of same troop type.

I'd look at the Lord of Change to exploit some of those Life and other excellent common lores and give you a lvl 4 caster and the consider switching the heralds of tz out.

BT is harder to hit and will be hit more often by cannons and stone throwers but stone throwed might do less damage unless a direct hit but there is no longer a BS bonus for shooting at a large target, so bolts are a bit less threatening.

Hitting flanks and rear is the key. You won't break ranks if you don't have two ranks but you will get the CR bonus and supporting and spear attacks can only be directed to the front, so a fleshhound unit hitting the flank or rear can do a lot of damage.

I'd drop the pyrocasters, not worth the extra points.

 

[Tim/Steve]

fleshhounds hitting a flank will work on weak isolated units... but not for the mainliners who only have to live for 1 turn brfore they can turn to face the doggies and then kill them. I dont think they'll be immense at killing everything like they were in 7th, but as hunters of everything that isnt a block unit they're still unsurpassed.

 

[Crimzzen]

Ditto on plaguebearers, they went from excellent tar pit to overpriced unit with the restriction that they either get regen or ward save.

Did a test of 37 bloodletters vs. 50 high elf spearmen of approximately same points. Bloodletters win just a bit more but are made a lot better by herald of khorne in unit. Get the bloodletters into combat fast to reduce shooting and magic casualties and they will do fine in 8th ed. Demonettes may prove to be very good with the ASF, high I and daemon ward save and improved by 8th ed.

Are you over the 25% rare limit? Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends also get stomp. A unit of 3 fiends is an interesting alternative to the overdone bloodcrushers. Also, fleshhounds are still very good with the MR adding to their ward save when magic is cast at them.

My understanding is that characters only get Look Out Sir? when in or near units of same troop type.

I'd look at the Lord of Change to exploit some of those Life and other excellent common lores and give you a lvl 4 caster and the consider switching the heralds of tz out.

BT is harder to hit and will be hit more often by cannons and stone throwers but stone throwed might do less damage unless a direct hit but there is no longer a BS bonus for shooting at a large target, so bolts are a bit less threatening.

Hitting flanks and rear is the key. You won't break ranks if you don't have two ranks but you will get the CR bonus and supporting and spear attacks can only be directed to the front, so a fleshhound unit hitting the flank or rear can do a lot of damage.

I'd drop the pyrocasters, not worth the extra points.

Thanks for the comments Tim/Steve and olderplayer.

Definitely will take some of those things into consideration. I really do like the KoS but I have a very nice FW Khorne DP that doesn't see enough light. This way it will; I still think the Bloodthirster is a honest choice. If you can manage to get that LoL spell off which boosts T by 2/4 he becomes nigh untouchable with even warmachines needing 6's to wound. I think he can still go through blocks of infantry relatively quickly. 7 attacks with rerolls to hit followed by d6 autohits should reasonable take out a decent chunk of models. Just gotta make sure you get something into the flank pretty quick.

I am over on my rares, doh. I'll drop the second squad of flamers and the pyrocasters. I think I'm going to throw in a unit of Khorne hounds to follow the thirster around. What size should I look at? multiple ranks?

I already have the bloodletters so I'm not changing to deamonettes - I think they are both about equal anyways. Plus I have my heralds on bloodletters to up the killing power.

 

[Cheese meister]

lord of change with lv4 and master of sorcery is 560 pts get kairos 65pts more but has more spells is at +6 2 cast re-roll a d6 every player turn and a better ward also really cool model coming out in august for him

 

[Tim/Steve]

I would stick with units of 5 dogs- ranks is just way too expensive and they should be looking at killing outriders/warmachines anyway (although the new rules are a little iffy- only 2 beasts fight vs a warmachine at a time- fleshounds can still win though). If you do see an open flank go for it- you wont negate the rank bonus and the unit will be incredibly unlikely to break but you also will inflict casualities without much blowback... and fot the enemy to beat you they'll have to turn to face (hopefully letting one of your blocks get into their flank- but its not that easy: if they dogs die in the enemy turn when they have faced then that unit will get a free reform to face front again).


Daemons have the huge +ves that they always have saves and dont break... but the downside to them now is that they are too expensive to really have that many ranks and cant put out the very high number of attacks that'll be needed to totally wipe out teh enemy- I think a lot of their games may well turn into slow slug fests while you beat the opponent by a few wounds and they dont break- to win I think it might have to be the combo of a +3 rank block unit with BT/doggies in the side of the enemy... you'll need to do quite a few wounds to kill any excess ranks though (and having a unit large enough to keep +3 ranks after taking damage is very expensive).

 

[olderplayer]

Fleshhounds are not monstrous beasts, so they are not limited to two attacking a warmachine. That limit wound apply to Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends.

Agreed fleshounds as just expensive enough to not run in two ranks. They are there for flank protection and flank attacks. There will still be dark riders, knight and stuff to counter with the hounds. Supporting attacks cannot be made to the flanks. Thus, fleshhounds need to hit flanks more often. They still hit hard and can tip the scales in a battle where a horde unit is stuck on a unit of bloodletters to ensure high CR wins. The amount of casualties caused can result in a horde unit quickly losing ranks and steadfast and breaking.

Also, flamers are really good in 8th edition. 8th ed will have more terrain and rewards shooting and movement. Skirmiishers have a lot of benefits using terrain in 8th edition. With more horde units with lower T and AS, flamers have so many shooting attacks, they can effectively deplete hordes before they get to the bloodletters, taking away some ranks and making it easier to panic or break those units.

 

[Crimzzen]

Changes reflected in original list.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Fleshhounds are not monstrous beasts, so they are not limited to two attacking a warmachine. That limit wound apply to Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends.

AHha, gottcha- hadn't noticed that: "monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts".... hadnt realised that the monstrous reffered to all, but then I didnt have my own book until today (yay, so happy).

 

[Nurgle...nurfed]

Deamonettes are very good now when they have a Herald in the unit, they will strike first with re-rolls, and even without the Herald they are still good as they'll be hitting most things first. Also the higher movement allows them to get into better positions before the change. I'd swap out the plaugebearers for deamonettes.
When it comes to the new lores, lore of shadow is probably one of the best for daemons, as it allows you to weaken your enemies so that you can break through them and charge into the next thing easier. LoL is awesome, especially for daemons so keep you Herald that knows that.