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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Third Attempt:
HQ: Chaos Sorc/MoT/Bolt of Change/Gift of Chaos
185

HQ: Chaos Sorc/MoT/Bolt of Change/Gift of Chaos
185

ELITE: x5 Chosen/x1 LC/x1 flamer
130

ELITE: x5 Chosen/x1 LC/x1 flamer
130

ELITE: x5 Chosen/x1 LC/x1 flamer
130

TROOPS: x10 CSM/IoCG/x1 LC/x1 flamer/rhino
220

TROOPS: x10 CSM/IoCG/x1 LC/x1 flamer/rhino
220

TROOPS: x10 CSM/IoCG/x1 LC
180

HEAVY: x6 Havocx/x3 plasma guns/+1 Champ/PF/IoCG/rhino
235

HEAVY: x6 Havocx/x3 plasma guns/+1 Champ/PF/IoCG/rhino
235

HEAVY: x2 Oblits
150

HEAVY: x2 Oblits
150
 

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How about; Infantry based - 2k? ;)

I like this, seen similar before. The main thing that stands out of place for me... Is the Havocs/Lord and NM. Whether thats from lack of experience with the 3, or it's because i just don't like them.

I genuinly don't think 4 Autocannons will break armour, and do the job as a HS unit.

for 140 points you can take 5x Chosen with 5 Meltaguns.

2 of those, if used well would pay back the points far better, as a combination of 5 Meltaguns will pop a tank if you get to the tank.

I tend to stay away from blood-feeder, unless i was running it with 'Zerkers (and even then i'd just take Khârn). I think you might want a Daemon Prince as a Bullet-Magnet here. Draw attention away from the chosen!

Gotta Dash to college, but i'll hit you back some more later.

ROT out. :wild:
 

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I have heard good things about Nurgle Bikers.

With the Chosen infiltrating and so many Icons, I would switch the Noise marines for a 8-man lesser daemon squad and the Havocs for 2 X 2 Obliterators. If opponent ignores 1 chosen squad, it could bite him in the ass when a scoring unit teleports to them or when that 1 lascannon turns into a lascannon and 2 - 4 obliterators.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated.

I considered the standard melta Chosen before I decided not to use them. I even considered using a unit of 5 Chosen with 3 meltas, rhino, and a plain Aspiring Champ just to throw in a Greater Daemon.

But I didn’t do it because it would turn the Chosen (a suicide unit in most cases, IMO) more expensive, not to mention that I’d have roll for them to come in, hope the Champ makes it, and then hope the GD comes on roll.

Even with the all melta setup (as effective as it is) I didn’t like the idea of rolling for my anti-tank to show up.

The point of the Havocs is to keep light armor stunned. I’m getting 8 AC shots for 250 pts. that can target two different vehicles. It’s essentially poor man’s Long Fangs.

While I still like the idea of Lesser Daemons due to all the icons I have, I don’t think 8 of them will be effective. I always imagined that getting 10+ would be better.

I purposely stayed away from Oblits, and while I can ‘t deny they’re effectiveness, I wanted more Marines and a unit that couldn’t be picked off by a single LC shot. With the Havocs I could sit in cover and fire at any transports I need keep out of the fight until either the PMs or the Biker unit can deal with it.

The Bloodfeeder is there for pure shits and giggles, and the NM are there to hold home objective.

The major flaw I see with this list is that it can rely on lot on cover, but I think at least it will be fun. The big advantage: 55 MEQs, which is nothing to sneeze at.

I’m not disregarding the advice you guys listed (it’s very appreciated, actually), it’s more that in the building process I thought of the issues ROT and Malgron mentioned and went my own way instead of the conventional way.

Thanks for the input and keep it coming.
 

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As you say, I'm more of a conventional guy, I'll take the obvious route to fixing an issue.

I Don't really like Autocannons, that's my big issue with the Havocs. But if you have sufficient cover(I have no idea what tables you play on) Then in theory they work. (Despite not being able to even glance AV14)
-Which i should note as a key issue. If you face up a land raider; You have 2 lascannons to deal with it essentially (Unless you can get close enough with melta).

Bloodfeeder is great for shits and giggles. Until you successfully fail 3 assaults in a row, and kill yourself (which as lame as it sounds; has happened to me, twice.)

Just be careful vs mech-lists, and Horde lists particularly; I do think you'll get over-run by Orks. (then i spose you could take 4 flamers in the chosen, for the same points as the meltaguns..)

Hope this helps.

:wild:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I Don't really like Autocannons, that's my big issue with the Havocs. But if you have sufficient cover(I have no idea what tables you play on) Then in theory they work. (Despite not being able to even glance AV14)
right. i know; they're not meant for attacking LR's they're meant to keep Rhinos and other light armor from slowing my advance. i could switch to ML's i guess, but i'm giving up 8 shots for 4

Which i should note as a key issue. If you face up a land raider; You have 2 lascannons to deal with it essentially (Unless you can get close enough with melta).
i should hope so...2 LCs, 10 meltaguns and 4 PFs give me a lot of hope.

i still have a mind to take melta Chosen...but damn, i don't like waiting for those guys to come in, especially in tourney setting; sometimes those guys never came in as our tourneys' first round is typically drawn at random so it's happened to me (3 time this summer) where i didn't even get to turn 4. once, i didn't get to turn 3.

couldn't be helped: i was playing a newb that played Orks. the two things i might do is change out the Havocs for Vindies and the LCs on the Lord to TL LCs.

thoughts?
 

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Nope, I think you got this one. Sounds like you know what your doing! Just get it play tested, and see how it runs.

Best of luck!

ROT out.
 

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Right I think there is alot wrong with this list and seeing as you have no real theme I think you can fix alot of them pretty easily. I'll post a revised list of this army, but first here is my argument/line of thinking.
First get rid of the nurgle bikers, I know everyone says they are tough but they don't match the HQ and are a litle bit useless running ahead of your rhinos. Mech guard will laugh, shoot you, and move on to the rhinos.I know that makes them waste shots on that unit...but for the cost that is just not worth it. So what I suggest is switching them to Khorne Bikers, more theme based and cheaper. Plus the unit is great at getting in the face of everything.
Next, don't fall for everyone love affair with melta, take a single double PM plasma squad for elite infantry killing, plus on PM they reroll their saves (I think) Also that noise marine squad is next to useless the way it is set-up, so if you want it we will use the points saved from my bike idea to buff it.
The chosen I don't know where to begin, I have no expeinece with them honestly, but my gut tells me your set-up is very wrong, high initiative on a unit designed to camp behind cover? Not good. Plus one 48" range and one 12" range weapon...not good. So try something else with that squad.
Long story short here is my two cents.

HQ
Keep as is, cause you like the idea

ELITE
Chosen, figure out what you want them to do and just re-configure them (or my own idea would be get rid of them and use something else)

TROOPS
Plagues are fine but change one to double plasma for elite/MC killing

Noise marines, either get rid of them or add 5 sonic blasters, or better yet with the points I save with these suggestions, get a rhino, champ, doom siren, buff up to 8 men and add sonic blasters.

FAST ATTACK
Right, 4 Bikers, 1 Champion, Powerfist, IOK, x2 melta, (maybe even one flamer) 255pts, excellent theme points :) kick ass up close, champion gets extra PF attack, and you just saved 86pts to help those noise marines.

HEAVY SUUPORT
I actually like havocs, but not this set-up. Far too slow footslogging. Mix it into a squad of 9 (one Icon holder, 4 heavy weapons, and 4 extra wounds) kitted out however you want (maybe add those lascannons here, then add IOCG, and a rhino so you can travel fast to good cover and move about as you need to, to get extra targets. Just a thought maybe ION for a theme and extra survivability against shooting attacks.

So those are my ideas, hope you like them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Thanks ROT once again for the advice.

About the only thing useful about removing the MoN on the bikers is that they become cheaper. The argument of facting mech IG is true against most armies: mech IG will shoot you and you’ll die ESPECIALLY if they get first turn. At least with T6 throughout the squad it will be harder to kill the bikers, and even plasma guns don’t wound as easily.

Screening units need to be tough, and you can’t get much tougher that T6 with 3+ cover. And the point is: do you fire against the bikes or the Rhinos behind them? The Khornate Lord with the Daemon Weapon is there to make up for the Nurgle biker’s relative lack of assaultiness.

I do like the idea of taking a plasma PM squad, but with this list killing transports is a huge key. NM is simply a sit at home unit: that’s why it’s stripped down. I could add more NM and a Rhino, but I’m using it as a static unit since standard a CSM squad would be less cost effective. For the points invested, I get a scoring unit that has a decent ranged heavy weapon. CSM can do the same thing but for more points since you have to take 10 CSM to get one ML or LC.

On the Chosen, It would be acceptable to give them IoCG, or even IoK to make them cheaper, and remove the melta. But the list is about distractions. I want them in cover being a pain in the arse to my opponent so they have to waste time and energy dislodging 310 pts. of MEQs.

Imagine two Infiltrated (preferably in cover) Chosen squads targeting transports with 8 advancing bikers and 21 PMs following behind. What do you shoot first?

I’ll admit that on paper this idea looks OK, and it could blow on the battlefield, but it’s meant to be different from the standard Daemon Prince of some kind, two Obits and a bunch of dudes in Rhinos lists that are so common.

That being said, I think I’ll drop the Havocs for Vindies. That should prove to be more of a pain to any one I play against. Thanks D-A-C for your input. I’ll seriously consider making the Chosen cheaper even if it’s by removing IoS. With that unit I just wanted to get the advantage of having a better initiative than a lot of other opposing units, but there’s really not much of a point in making what I consider a disposable unit more expensive.
 

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use a Khornate NOT DP with a KILLMYSELF as one of my friends has been having STATISTICALIMPROBABILITY with that lately.
You are heading for disaster, be wary.

1 Chaos Lord @ 170 pts Bike; Mark of Khorne; Daemon Weapon; Blood Feeder
A lot of new guys take these because they think "Neato! What could go wrong!"
One powerfist and 170 points goes kaput, not to mention he has 1/3 a chance to smash himself in the face like a tardlord from dawn of war(SIIIINDRIIII)
Trust me you will regret this choice against any army, the only viable lord is the slaaneshi daemon weapon one due to the fact that his instant death sword shits all over tyranids.

5 Chosen @ 155 pts; Icon of Slaanesh; Lascannon; Meltagun x1

5 Chosen @ 155 pts; Icon of Slaanesh; Lascannon; Meltagun x1
What. What is this. Why are you paying all these points for guys who are going to die violently by shooting? I5 is not what a weaponless chosen team want or need, hell the only thing in your army(Outside of fluff reasons) should be a lashing prince with wings.
Plus you're paying primo for these squads but only taking two guns? These poor dudes will be shot to pieces. Instead, try outfitting four with meltas/plasma/flamers, put them into a rhino, outflank and turn everything into wreckage that's within 18" of a board edge? It's super cheap too.

6 Plague Marines @ 256 pts Meltagun x2/1 Plague Champion; Power Fist/Rhino

6 Plague Marines @ 256 pts Meltagun x2/1 Plague Champion; Power Fist/Rhino

6 Plague Marines @ 256 pts Meltagun x2/1 Plague Champion; Power Fist/Rhino
Perfect. Just get some extra armor on the rhinos and you're golden. MAYBE turn one into zerks somehow.

6 Noise Marines @ 160 pts Blastmaster
You will be kicking yourself from the time these guys hit the table til the time they leave, they're just too hideously expensive without filling a role chaos needs. Plus you're paying top dollar for a squad that's supposedly shooty, but you mandatory have to buy their i5. Not fun.

6 Bikers @ 341 pts; Icon of Nurgle; Meltagun x2/1 Biker Champion; Power
Fist
This is a TON of points to sink into six guys who's only real feature is t6. So basically you have a six wound shield for the lord. Problem being you're one vindicator shot away from losing them all, or a leafblower ig list(s8 cares not for t6). Plus if they swarm fire you and deal seven wounds and your icon goes down, you're dust. It's a neat trick but this one trick pony might be better served as oblits, you get all the range and none of the backlash unless they can outrange you.

5 Havocs @ 125 pts Chaos Glory; Autocannon x2

5 Havocs @ 125 pts Chaos Glory; Autocannon x2
These really should be oblits, the range is longer, they're tougher to get rid of, and you get a power fist if anything wants to outflank and tangle with them. Also 2+ save is great for shrugging off bolter fire. These autocannons will do nothing to any tanks that aren't rhinos, chimeras are questionable as are eldar boats. Instead of these, why not buy an obliterator, and get a flying lashing prince?
The oblit is a better tank hunter, and the lasher is much more of a threat and can back up the army in a more active role then four shots a turn.



In short I don't see the army you have setup as being extremely viable, at 2000 pts I could bring five scoring land raider crusaders, or any ig leafblower and just make a wreck, you need to have a more survivable lord and not try to defend the rhinos as much, they'll be fine til they throw marines out the doors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Trust me you will regret this choice against any army, the only viable lord is the slaaneshi daemon weapon one due to the fact that his instant death sword shits all over tyranids.
Damn, I didn’t think about that. And of course it’s more that I wanted to copy cat a trick someone was having luck with, though I see your point now…

Maybe a Tzeentchian Sorc instead? I understand that DPs are the best HQ available, but I’ve killed plenty of those (with Termagants, no less) in my time with massed infantry fire. I just think an HQ that can hide with another squad is viable.

These poor dudes will be shot to pieces. Instead, try outfitting four with meltas/plasma/flamers, put them into a rhino, outflank and turn everything into wreckage that's within 18" of a board edge?
I’ve never disputed the effectives of the tried and true method of using Chosen. I hate using Reserves. It’s a great tactic, but I never get my rolls when they’re needed it seems.

Just for the sake of tossing ideas about, what’s another reliable set up for Chosen, or would you even consider another set up?

You will be kicking yourself from the time these guys hit the table til the time they leave, they're just too hideously expensive without filling a role chaos needs. Plus you're paying top dollar for a squad that's supposedly shooty, but you mandatory have to buy their i5. Not fun
.
So what do you recommend as a unit to hold a home objective? thinking standard CSM here, but I hate giving up the long range shot, though I5 is wasted here.

This is a TON of points to sink into six guys who's only real feature is t6. So basically you have a six wound shield for the lord. Problem being you're one vindicator shot away from losing them all.
Didn’t think about other Vindies. More than likely the general consensus would be to drop the bikers, but what about taking more bikers? I think perhaps a problems is that I only have one bike unit to soak up fire.
 

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Damn, I didn’t think about that. And of course it’s more that I wanted to copy cat a trick someone was having luck with, though I see your point now…

Maybe a Tzeentchian Sorc instead? I understand that DPs are the best HQ available, but I’ve killed plenty of those (with Termagants, no less) in my time with massed infantry fire. I just think an HQ that can hide with another squad is viable.
What you may want to try is a slaaneshi sorceror in with the khorne zerks, he makes their job exponentially easier, since you clear charge range and grab more people to chop up. But remember, one fist and he dies.

I’ve never disputed the effectives of the tried and true method of using Chosen. I hate using Reserves. It’s a great tactic, but I never get my rolls when they’re needed it seems.

Just for the sake of tossing ideas about, what’s another reliable set up for Chosen, or would you even consider another set up?
I think Galahad on here proposed a four man plasma squad with the fifth holding a lascannon. It's an expensive fire base. I'm not a terrible fan of it.

Even if chosen dont make their points back by shooting, they do by the terror they inflict, and they force your opponent to risk getting their face wrecked by outflanking, or they stay in the middle(So you can pelt them with vindicator and plasma cannon shots)

I personally tried making them ultra killy in CC. They ended up costing me WAAAAAY too many points for a squad that should have been terminators.

So what do you recommend as a unit to hold a home objective? thinking standard CSM here, but I hate giving up the long range shot, though I5 is wasted here.
I gladly pay 85 points to have a five man squad of pirate marines stand and cry on the objective with a rerollable leadership nine. The icon makes them stand on it and chaos marines are decent enough to shoot an infiltrating squad of genestealers/hormogaunts/deffkoptas off the field.


Didn’t think about other Vindies. More than likely the general consensus would be to drop the bikers, but what about taking more bikers? I think perhaps a problems is that I only have one bike unit to soak up fire.
If you shit in a bucket, you don't solve it by putting more shit into the bucket.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
If you shit in a bucket, you don't solve it by putting more shit into the bucket.
i guess that depends on how constipated you are?

i can shit a lot...

...seriously though thanks for the thoughts. i don't have a personal dislike of what other consider crap units for Chaos. the whole idea of what i intended was to to make a list that was atypical from a Lash list, but it's looking like that won't work, at least unless i'm willing to commit to a making a full fledged biker list.

thanks for the help again guys.

list updated in original post.
 

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Right, I was going to do an extensive unit by unit review of this new list and recommend some completely new units, but the fact is I don't know what you want specifically from this list. (I hate how when I read this as I type I'm adding a mean and angry voiceover lol but I just want to say I in no want to tell you what to do or be an a..hole) Do you want any kind of theme, is it a competitive tournament list, is it fun? Figure this out and just let me know please. Anyway here are some suggestions.

HQ
I hate its Lash, its overrated, and people will stereotype you as being boring and unamaginative and worse this isn't even a Lash build list so why have it?. So try and think of something else you like. (I like the Biker Lord BTW)

ELITES
I just can't stand this setup, your on foot with a unit that has 4 12" range guns, how would you get near the eldar, mech guard....or a horde will just send 30boys or Gaunts at you. Get a Rhino, one squad, 4 meltas infiltrate or get rid of them.


TROOPS
These are pretty good but if we get rid of that rubbish x5 CSM squad we can juice up your 4 choices to this

7 Plague Marines, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, x2 Plasma Guns, Rhino, 276pts

7 Plague Marines, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 266pts

7 Plague Marines, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 266pts

8 Khorne Berzerkers, Skull Champion, Powerfist, x2 Plasma Pistols, Rhino, EA, 288pts (thats right no land raider I'll explain in the heavy section)


You really need one unit of PM to use plasma, it is so good at opening light armour and doubletapping MC, and PM do get their feel no pain vs an overheat. Anyway I also added comb-flamers as they are great vs hordes or soft targets, just imagine a sludge gun :) . Finally the Berzerkers get two plasma pistols to fire at MC before the charge and open vehicles themselves, plus they can fire from the rhino hatches.


HEAVY SUPPORT
Did you used to have havocs? If so think about bringing them back and just trying them. Our Land Raiders are not good enough for the points, they can be immobilized and one shot and they are gone. Also Oblits are a little slow in this list. So maybe think about a Vindicator or Predator? Or the havocs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
revised the list here:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71536

idea here is to fire LC shots at whatever is a threat and then advance in to Rhino rush with the Havocs. depending who the enemy is i can either decide to assault or simply shoot the plasma.

i do have a mind to switch over to meltas or just flames, as it would make the squads considerably cheaper, and i could still assault and ignore cover. i just wanted to be a threat to Termies.

the Sorcs. ride with these guys to give me a last minute anti-tank shot (i can deploy the Havocs independently from the Sorc. i think: i don't do that often, so i can't recall if i can do that) and if close enough i can Gift of Chaos the the PF in the squad.

icons everywhere allow me to deep strike those Oblits if i want to.

unconventional, and still gets in fast without expensive bikers.

thoughts?
 
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