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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
First time poster on Heresy. I'm looking to take this list to a local Tournament and I'm hoping to get some input. If you'd make some tweaks or changes let me know and tell me why. Also, If you think it's solid and you wouldn't make any changes, tell me so I get a nice confidence boost ;)


-HQ-

Eldrad - 210 ***(He attaches to the first listed unit of Dire Avengers)


-ELITE-

5x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones - 190

5x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones - 190

5x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones - 190


-TROOPS-

9x Dire Avengers w/ 1x DA Exarch: PW + Shimmer Shield / Bladestorm / Defend
*Wave Serpent: TL Missle Launcher / Spirit Stones / Vectored Engines

9x Dire Avengers w/ 1x DA Exarch: 2 Avenger SC's / Bladestorm
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
*Wave Serpent: TL Bright Lance / Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
*Wave Serpent: TL Bright Lance / Spirit Stones

3x Guardian Jetbikes


-FAST ATTACK-

3x Vypers: 3x Starcannons


-HEAVY SUPPORT-

1x NightSpinner: Spirit Stones

1x Fire Prism: Holo Fields / Spirit Stones

1x Fire Prism: Holo Fields / Spirit Stones


Now It wouldn't be fair to ask you guys to explain any tweaks you might make if I didn't explain why I took what I did in the first place now would it? I'll go over each section but a quick point to make is one of the main reasons why I love mech Eldar is even with all its guns blow off Eldar tanks can get stuff done! It can be contesting objectives, tank shocking, ramming or just giving another unit a cover save these guys are useful until the very end. Totally worth the points!

-HQ-

Eldrad needs no explaining in my opinion. Moving right along...

-ELITE-

At high points costs you better be expecting some big tough as nails units. What better to deal with these units of MC's and beefy tanks than 15 melta guns? The wave serpents are a must and any tank transporting Eldar units NEEDS Spirit stones. Expensive guns on these Serpents would be a waste since they are moving as fast as they can most of the game hence the cheapo SC.

-TROOPS-

Can you tell I love Dire Avengers? The 10 man squad of DA's with a PW + SS with Defend and Bladestorm is one of my Favorite units to throw Eldrad with. Reason being is his support spells really shine with this unit. Doom, Guide, Fortune.. they all benefit this unit tremendously. Meanwhile they are keeping Eldrad safe. It's a mutually beneficial relationship :) Also just a quick note I only put vectored engines on transports that have durable units inside like this one. Here's why: If a 5 Man fire dragon squads wave serpent gets an immobilized result and crash and burns while moving flat out, the FD's are screwed. If that serpent has Vectored engines and floats to the ground instead of busting... the FD's are still screwed (usually out of range and probably out in the open.. and they cannot take hits). See my point?

Second squad is your Standard Bladestorm DA squad.

The next 2 squads are there as a cheap way to boost my scoring unit count, add accurate bright lances to my list, and be a fast objective grabber late in the game. I love this setup for DA's and they compliment this list wonderfully.

Last troops choice is solely to boost my scoring unit count. Honestly It worked out that I built my list and had 66 points leftover... tadaaaaa! Keep these guys in reserve and boost towards an objective if its an objective scenario or boost out of LOS of everything if its kill points.

-FAST ATTACK-

A great addition to any mech list. Now I know they are wet paper but in the right list they work wonders. These guys advance with my Eldrad/DA wave Serpent so they can be guided and put the hurt out on the enemies tough units. No vehicle upgrades on these guys, its a waste. The only thing that is going to keep these guys alive is to stay at max range and have lots of higher priority targets in your mech list.

-HEAVY SUPPORT-

I haven't tried the Night spinner out yet but it seems solid. I didn't give it holo fields as i'll be trying to keep it out of LOS and rely on it's twin linked to keep those shots hitting. Now I did give it Spirit stones.. for ten points it's completely worth it. This gunboat is only ever firing its one gun and even though I plan on keeping it out of LOS I want the option to be able to move 12 to readjust and keep firing. It's a ten point upgrade.. why not? Also if its gun get's blown off it can still contest/ram/tank shock. One thing I am worried about with this unit is I feel its going to be a prime target for any type of deep striking melta guns. However somethings going to get targeted by them so I can't really complain. At least this tank will most certainly be by some cover for the deepstrikers to possibly mishap on?

Onto the pair of Fire prism's! Always works best in two's hence the two in my list. They have a great versatile main gun that has an awesome range. Again Spirit stones for the same reasons as the NS. I've also given these guys holo fields. Now in lower point games I tend to just give them Spirit stones however with this many tanks on the field and this many high priority targets it's more of a mind game than anything. I'm thinking my opponent will see this many Eldar skimmers zipping around the board at him that he'll look back at the 2 FP's, groan to see they have Holo fields, and leave them alone in favor of some "higher priority" tanks. If that happens that means I'll be able to keep these guys firing for most of the game which means I'll be dishing out some hefty damage.

Soooo a little long winded but tell me what you think!
 

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looks good. i think i would drop the Vypers and Bikes for more Dire Avengers, but that's because a 2 man Guardian unit is weak in on an objective grab, and Vypers are not that great for their points cost IMO.

good hunting.
 

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I think that's a very good list, covers all the right bases. One rules point though:

Now I did give it Spirit stones.. for ten points it's completely worth it. This gunboat is only ever firing its one gun and even though I plan on keeping it out of LOS I want the option to be able to move 12 to readjust and keep firing. It's a ten point upgrade.. why not?
...

Onto the pair of Fire prism's! ... Again Spirit stones for the same reasons as the NS. I've also given these guys holo fields.
That's not anything to do with spirit stones. (In fact it sounds more like the Tau vehicle upgrade that lets their tanks shoot as though they were Fast vehivles.)
All our tanks are Fast; they can move 12" and still fire one weapon, plus defensive weapons. Spirit stones let you downgrade crew stunned results to crew shaken results. So, while they are to do with moving, they've got nothing to do with letting you shoot.
 

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I'd cut a whole lot, and then use the points thus saved to invest in more goodstuff.

Goodstuff!
-'drad! No, really, he's totally tubular. Great psyker, comes with RuWa standard, and divination rocks.

-Dragons! I harp, I drone, I parrot, I copy+paste, I never fail to praise the dragons.

-DAVUs! Because scoring wave serpents are amazing

-Prisms! Pie templates of doom par excellance, decent backup s10ap1 weapon in a pinch.

things I pointedly avoid:
-Spirit stones. It's a fair number of points for a 1/6 chance of doing something. Outside of fire dragons I generally avoid the snot out of them.

-Vectored engines: they're practically useless. The only take effect when you're blasting along, and even then it's, again, a 1/6 chance.

-starcannons: they're junk. Against marines in cover, they're worse than scatterlasers. Against vehicles, they're worse. Against anything without power armour, they're worse. Against TH/SS termies, they're the same strength, and starcannons cost way more. dump them. Maybe in the next codex they'll be s7ap1 or something. Until then, they aren't usable.

-Spinners: They just don't do that much. Sure. the shot is nice enough, but defaulting to ap-, and no rate of fire makes the template a "troops only" thing, and killing troops isn't necessarily our #1 concern given our lack of reliable vehicle suppressant firepower

-holofields on anthing that isn't a falcon: it increases your chances of a weapon destroyed, costs a fairly high chunk of points, and doesn't prevent the other guy from shutting down your vehicles (on things like prisms and spinners) for a turn. Spend the points elsewhere.


Tweaks!
-An extra farseer to supplement 'drad. Fortune is going to do more for you than holofields if you play your cards right.

-Cutting the shimers and defend for dual cats and bladestorm, if that. Dire Avengers are bad at close combat. You aren't going to change that, so instead focus on strengthening what they're good at.

-Trade the spirit stones on everything but the Dragon serpents for underslung shuriken cannons. It'll give you a lot more flexibility and makes a single weapon destroyed result less problematic. It's a 1/6 chance, but it's an upgrade that helps even when that 1/6 chance doesn't come up!

-Put TL brightlances on all of the DA wave serpents. You need the anti-vehicle, both in terms of suppression and the fact that Land Raiders HAPPEN. Fire Dragons are better if you don't have to use them against any one target, but can instead pick and choose at your leisure.

-An extra falcon as a ride for Eldrad, or an extra prism. Either one works. Either kit out the falcon for full dakka (scatterlaser, chincanon, SS, holos), or else add some durability in the form of a third prism. If you take the latter that lets you put 5 da in there to make it scoring on the cheap, making the bikes a sneaky trick rather than a neccesary scoring unit that you're counting on. If you go prism you can either guide it with drad for reliability, or worry less about the effects of a vehicle or weapon destroyed. Make sure you add a chincannon to it if it's a prism.

-buff up those dragon squads. 6 Give you a 75% chance of nailing a LR. 7 or 8, with one being a heavy-flamer equiped exarch (give him crack shot!) costs more points, but lets you dual purpose the squad for those times when you don't need to pop a vehicle. Take at least 6 per squad whenever you have the points, and shell out the extra 33 points for the rerolling to wound heavy flamer whenever you can sneak the points in. We get screwed for flamer availability outside of certain cases where we get some AMAZING access to flamers. You don't have warlocks, so cashing in on the opportunities that you do have is wonderful.

-Put scatters on the Vypers, split them up. Sure, if KILLS you for KPs, but squadrons are a double-edged sword, and as seperate squads they make it easier to use them to block and reroute your enemies movements. Scatters are a beautifull thing to put on vypers, when you aren't being cheap and keeping them striped down. At bs 3 I wouldn't give them anything other than scatters or shuriken cannons ever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And there we are. Apologies for my comments if they're incomprehensible, I was talking to someone online while writing this up, and as a result I took from 1am till about 5:30am my time to put it together. Between the gaps in the writing and punchiness it might not scan.

You said it's for a tourney. If you had said something else, like it's a fun list I would have given you less... strident advice, but editing a list that's going to be in a tourney should be approached with a "no mercy" attitude.
 

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Cyklown is obviously very knowledgable and has given you some great advice. I have a few points I disagree on though.

I like holo-fields on anything that can take them. I know they are expensive, and I know the increase the chance of your precious main weapon being shot off. They also greatly reduce the chance of your vehicles being destroyed, and as you pointed out, even weaponless eldar tanks have many uses. Not the least of them is simply denying your oponent a precious kill point.

Spirit stones are good on anything that carrys troops. When you get shaken, simply move all out and enjoy a fun cover save next turn.

I like DAs with shimmer shield and deffend. Yes they suck at fighting, but with that set up they also suck at dying. Nonthing like haveing a 160 something point unit tie up much more expensive units for much of the game. Toss fortune on them, and maybe doom on their oponent and kill the crap out of some meq. And statisticly speaking blade storm "may" kill one extra marine.

All the other advice you got was spot on. Have fun. And kill some space monkeys.
 

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Good Advice all around.

I disagree with one point though. Dedicating all your elites spots to fire dragons is a waste. Granted they will draw a lot of fire but I would put in some assault troops.

Banshees or better yet scorpions. if you drop at least one squad of dragons and put in a squad of scorpions to infiltrate or outflank you can use the left over points to bolster the dire avenger units since the scorpions do not need a wave serpent.

They act as a forward scout or a back up unit that you can force the enemy into when they out flank.

I would keep the night spinner. I have had great luck with it especially keeping assault troops and jump infantry from moving effectively. lends good range support to the rest of the army
 

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I can understand like holo's, but they're not worth it from a practical standpoint.

I'd rather spend the (on 3 prisms, say) 105 points on having more shooting goodness. A main gun destroyed result means that aside from ramming, the vehicle is basically toast. Furthermore, ANY hit that gets through is going to stop you from shooting for a turn.

Spend the extra points on more threats, and play more carefully with the Prism. If your opponent can suppress the Prism without destroying it he's still accomplishing his goal. If he isn't able to suppress it, then points spent on holos are wasted.

Spirit stones are just silly. You can get a cover save from other vehicles as well. Shuriken cannons underneath are considerably better, since it's an upgrade AND an insurance policy. I can understand liking them, but saving the points and working harder to keep them save is the way to go.

Scorpions don't fit within a mech theme's army. You go from making your opponent's anti-infantry guns useless to giving them a target. Furthermore, they don't have the maneuverability of the rest of the army. Refusing to engage until the time is ripe is a key strategy, and the scorpions can't really do that.

Banshee's are a bit different, since they don't completely contradict your battle plan, but they're still not that great. At 2.5k points there's a lot of vehicles that NEED ap1 weapons pointed at them, and quite frankly you're better off just running away and shooting at things than you are bogging yourself down to engage in CC. At 2.5k points there ARE CC options, but the good CC unit in our codex is jetseer councils, not Banshees. They have their place, but in a 2.5k competitive list isn't one of them.

Lastly, bladestorm. Bladestorm kills an extra 1.48 marines on average. That's actually huge. That's enough to push a squad into moral testing range, or enough to force an armor test onto a combat squad special weapons trooper. Go for it! Furthermore, DA aren't there to kill marines. We have Fire Prisms and masses s6 fire for the awesomeness there. Storming DA's job is to kill, say, large amounts of GEQs and force damage onto things that need to be attritioned.

SS+Defend, on the other hand, really is crap. AFTER fortune, we're looking at a t3, rerollable 4+/5++ unit. It sounds good, but it's really not. Any dedicated CC unit is still going to much through them. Will it take more than one round? Sure. So your enemy gets to hide in your unit for the duration of your turn. That's all a moot point, however. The entire army is IN TRANSPORTS. Just... don't engage until you want to wipe him out. Refuse to fight on your enemy's terms, then cut his throat on your terms once you get the chance.


edit: Also note: If it's a tourney list this big, there's a very good chance that most of it in complete. Changing out configurations is probably going to be a lot easier than swapping whole units out. The fact that with the option of changing configurations he can make a solid tourney list makes me, at least, want to keep it relatively intact.
 

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If the oponent can supress the fire prisim but not destroy it that means you are in effect suppressing one of his weapons as well. That's a trade off instead of an outright win for him.

I may concede the spirit stones on the non transport vehicles.

We will however have to agree to disagree on the Avenger set ups. I have killed large groups of nids with that group. And sometimes despite our best efforts vehicles get shot down. Having a unit that doesn't die instantly when this happens is sweet. Or we can just make the argument a moot point and suggest he just goes with more DAVUs.

Banshees are awesome. Yes in 2500 pt lists. Yes in competitive lists. Anyone who doesn't think so should talk to the piles and piles of dead marines mine have left in their wake. However if you are going full on mech then that's a moot point.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for all the replies guys! I've read over the responses and took a few things into consideration. Some points I agreed on some I didn't but it's great getting multiple POV's on a list and what players would do to improve.

I've made a modified second list after some brainstorming. I took out the Vypers as I feel they are too expensive for what they can do/ being so fragile. Even with all the tanks on the board I feel a smart opponet will just gun them down early.

I did take the holo's off of the Fire Prisms (I typically don't run mine with them anyways) and I felt that 70 points to try and convince my opponent to not target my FP's was too much and better used elsewhere. I did however keep spirit stones on everything for the reasons I mentioned in the original post. I know some people disagree but spirit stones have won me too many games for me to stop taking them now. (Also sorry for the poor wording in that sentence regarding keeping my Nightspinner moving and shooting. I wasn't trying to imply that spirit stones made you still be able to shoot, I meant to say something along the lines of how they let you reallocate out of harms way so you can continue shooting next turn.)

I've also removed the Jetbikes and added an additional 5DA Bright Lance WS. So I've maintained my 5 troop choice count yet my new 5th troop choice is much more durable and a great deal more useful than the 3 man JB squad (especially in a mech list).

Now as far as adding some close combat to the list I agree with Cyklown that JB Seers are the best unit to fill that roll in a competitive, mech, high point list. However My JB seers are in the mid conversion/ not painted at all yet process and probably won't be done anytime soon. Which is fine for the friendlies that I usually play in however It won't fly for this game. So no CC units for me :)

I did however throw in an additional Farseer to help Eldrad out a bit. This way I can throw 3 fortunes out on the 3 FD Wave Serpents for their Flat out moves on my first turn.

Oh and I almost forgot I threw in the extra FD on each of the three FD units. This finished my list off yet again at an even 2500. Let me know what you think!




-HQ- 343

Eldrad ***(Attached to 1st DA unit)

Farseer: Spirit Stones/ Doom/ Fortune/ Spear ***(Attached to 2nd DA unit)


-ELITE- 618

6x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones

6x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones

6x Fire dragons
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones



-TROOPS- 11964

9x Dire Avengers w/ 1x DA Exarch: PW + Shimmer Shield / Bladestorm / Defend
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones

9x Dire Avengers w/ 1x DA Exarch: Bladestorm
*Wave Serpent: TL Shuriken Cannons / Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
*Wave Serpent: TL Bright Lance / Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
*Wave Serpent: TL Bright Lance / Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
*Wave Serpent: TL Bright Lance / Spirit Stones



-HEAVY SUPPORT- 375

1x NightSpinner: Spirit Stones

1x Fire Prism: Spirit Stones

1x Fire Prism: Spirit Stones

**TOTAL** - 2500
 

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Sir.....I like this list.

I wouldn't do everything exactly that way, but overall its damn good.
I have nothing to add, but good luck. :victory:
 

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You can do that. I think my points remain. The list isn't terrible, but it still does some things I have issues with. But instead of me bitching, here's my commentary on the changes you made:

Second source of doom/fortune:
yes. yes. Guide just doesn't give us much with this many TL guns, but now you have enough reliability of guide/fortune (2 uses and 3 uses, divided how you choose helps us punch through hoods, etc.)

fire dragons at 6x: there now, you have the numbers to be able to count on them to behave properly.

More davus, accompanied by more brightlances: These really are, or at least should be a staple of lists. It's a tough, scoring unit that can suppress enemy vehicles and has a decent chance to destroy almost anything with an AV give the chance.

Cutting holofields from the prisms: that's 70 points that you can be spending on getting down to business. That paid for the extra fire dragons and the doom on the backup farseer right there.

Cutting the Vypers: Vypers aren't bad, but FA is probably the last slot I use in a list for eldar, because other things are better.

I heavily agree with your stance on Eldar CC units: ie, at this points value it's strictly Warlocks on Jetbikes or the highway.

My other comments still stand. Those spirit stones are better off as shuriken cannons on anything not dragging dragons around. 3 prisms would allow you to weather fire to them, since they're a major damage source, and would kill more that matters in the course of a game than 2 prisms and a spinner. Gun choices on dire avenger vehicles should always go BL/chincannon, and I have very strong opinions on DA squad loadouts... but I do like the changes you made a great deal.
 

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Except you don't have other viable options. If you want good CC that can keep up with a mechanized list, jetseers are it.

The fact that it's also truly primo heavy flamer delivery system is also classy. Bunch them with your tanks, burn them to bits.
 

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sticking with a strictly mech list yes you are slightly limited. I personally think going all mech is not always a good thing. infiltrating units and deep strikers work with the concept of a mobile force.

Bike councils just eat up to many points to be effective. to get the number of attacks in a bike council to match a unit of striking scorpions you need 10 with a Farseer. even with witch blades you still only have like 33 attacks. only saving grace is the 2+ to wound so you can potentially force more saves especially with a doom in place. but the scorpions are way way cheaper.

don't get me wrong bike councils are awesome and I use them often, but not as my primary hand to hand troops.
 

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It would be if we had other options. If fast attack gave us a few options, or we could take harilies without screwing ourselves for elites slots, if we had nondedicated transports in fast attack that were actually solid or what have you, low points lists are going to gain a large return on sticking to the monobuild from 1k to 1.75k or so, I'd ssay. From there a few other options pop up, but you start needing all 3 elites for melta.

Harlies should make amazing bubblewrap units. Should. And I'd like to see the other aspects able to handle things, or get some more use from fast attack. But, we've got an older codex. She can still produce something that is effective, but the how is more limited,
 
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