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Discussion Starter #1
New 2000pt Dark angels

Hq
100pt, librarian, master level 2
190pt, command squad, 4x combi-plasma, champion, rhino
Elite
120pt, dread, 2x tl ac
120pt, dread, 2x tl ac
Troops
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
Heavy
130pt, vindicator, dozer blade
130pt, vindicator, dozer blade
164pt, dev (6) 4x ml (2x flakk)
Fortifications
100pt, aegis defence line, quad cannon

1999pt

Has some long range, a pinch of mid range, a smidge of anti-flyer, and not so much close combat. What you guys think? I am trying to work out a tourney list, I want to have some flexibility, and don’t want to be handed my army back completely destroyed. And don’t want to rely on one unit of uber-ness to do everything.
I know I will loose the first blood, as a rhino/razorback will go pop.

C & C Very welcome (Also needed really
 

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Rattlehead
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6,741 Posts
Hq
100pt, librarian, master level 2
190pt, command squad, 4x combi-plasma, champion, rhino
Elite
120pt, dread, 2x tl ac
120pt, dread, 2x tl ac
Troops
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
205pt, Tac (10) mm, mg, combi-flamer, rhino
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
Heavy
130pt, vindicator, dozer blade
130pt, vindicator, dozer blade
164pt, dev (6) 4x ml (2x flakk)
Fortifications
100pt, aegis defence line, quad cannon

1999pt
Someone's been paying attention in class :wink:

Replace the Company Champion with an Apothecary - he's got an AP3 Power Axe and WS5, but that's about it and you're a shooting unit.

I don't like how many Tacticals you have - Tacticals don't do an awful lot of actual damage, so taking more than 30 is severely limiting your choices. I'd take out one of the 10-man squads, and I'd be tempted to use the points to replace the 2 remaining Multi-Meltas with Missile Launchers and give them both PLasbacks so you can have a real mechanised spearhead going on (Vindicators out front, with a PLasback on each flank to avoid side shots, unfortunately the Power Field Generator no longer works but with canny maneuvering and smoke launchers, you can usually blag an obscured save on most all of the vehicles and the Librarian still has his Psychic Hood in a vehicle). You don't really need the Devastators with 5 individual Missile Launchers in Troops and a Quad-Gun, so they can drop out for a 3rd Vindicator.

Apart from that, looking a lot better :)

Midnight
 

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Spanner in the works...
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On top of what Midnight's suggested, I'd also advise upgrading the combi-plasmas on the Command Squad to straight-forward Plasma Guns. Otherwise solid.
 

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As said convert combiplas to plas. I might also consider a power field on the Libby to shield vindicators. Id also take instead of the razorback marines scouts w sniper rifles instead. Do the rbacks with the bigger squads for combat squad transport and use ml scouts for the Aa and objective duties.
 

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Rattlehead
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6,741 Posts
Oh, and put the Command Squad in a PLasback. (Taking out 3 Rhinos and the Devastators lets you put the Command Squad and 2 of the Tactical Squads in PLasbacks and have the other split into 2 squads both with Missile Launchers).

As said convert combiplas to plas. I might also consider a power field on the Libby to shield vindicators. Id also take instead of the razorback marines scouts w sniper rifles instead. Do the rbacks with the bigger squads for combat squad transport and use ml scouts for the Aa and objective duties.
I disagree on the Power Field - the Librarian needs to be in a transport moving with the other Razorbacks, not sitting on foot behind Vindicators. Tactical Marines are better than Scouts as they have better saves in all instances, better BS for the Quad-Gun, and can actually hit things with their Missile Launcher.

Midnight
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Cheers for the advise.

HQ
70pt, Lib, level 1, auspex
245pt, Command squad, 4x plasma, razorback c/w las/plas
Elite
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
Troops
255pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
255pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
Fast
180pt, Nephilim fighter
180pt, Nephilim fighter
Heavy
130pt, Vindicator, dozer
130pt, Vindicator, dozer

2000pt on the nose

Does this seem better?

Went for proper anti-flyer, with two aircraft of my own, not the best ones out there but, the aegis is an easy thing to kill.
Well in my last 3 games with it, it died, twice in the first turn, maybe bad luck but if it happens in friendly, it will happen again.
Comments?
 

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I think with 4 Flakk Missiles, 2 Nephilim is a bit of overspending. One, I think is not a bad choice. I think you're short on Heavy AntiTank weaponry, and recommend replacing that second Nephilim with a Lasturret Predator. If you're facing A:14 you might find you need it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The one thing that does bother me is the lack of mm, I think I have enough lascannons, to not need the pred, AV14 will be tough with this list, multi raiders will be very hard. I went with dual flyers as one will be shot up easy, but two may have a chance. and they can also start to play it the raiders once the anti air is gone. I want redundancy in the list. I was planning on running a deathwing/ravenwing azrael list, but the tiny model count made everything hurt when it died.
 

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That makes a modest bit of sense, but I'm concerned anyone else with AA assets isn't going to find Nephilim much trouble, even with 2.

I worry that even with 5 Las/Plas, they're only on Rhino Chassis, and thereby fairly easy to kill. Especially if you ever fire the Plas and get hot. Gets hot will be very important in about one third of games, I find. Good Luck!
 

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Rattlehead
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6,741 Posts
HQ
70pt, Lib, level 1, auspex
245pt, Command squad, 4x plasma, razorback c/w las/plas
Elite
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
Troops
255pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
255pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
165pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
Fast
180pt, Nephilim fighter
180pt, Nephilim fighter
Heavy
130pt, Vindicator, dozer
130pt, Vindicator, dozer
Much better, only a few minor tweaks. Swap out one the Command Squad Plasma Guns for a Meltagun, I've done this and it allows you a bit of duality in the squad while only giving up 1 shot. Nephilims are unfortunately crap, really, and better (IMHO) with the Avenger as it allows them to focus fire on medium infantry and light vehicles rather than be a confused mess of weapons.

I'd definitely drop one of the Jetfighters for 5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo-Cloaks behind an Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun for extra Scoring + another unit in the firebase. This would let you drop Flakk Missiles in the rest of the list as you'd have the Quad-Gun, a Nephilim with buttloads of mid-strength firepower and 2 Riflemen for plinking hullpoints, and then Twin-Linked Plasma out the ass for hitting Flyers.

Midnight
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So this then?

HQ
70pt, Lib, level 1, auspex
245pt, Command squad, 4x plasma, 1x melta, razorback c/w las/plas
Elite
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
120pt, Dread, 2x tl ac
Troops
260pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
260pt, Tac (10) ml (flakk), mg, combi-flamer, razorback c/w las/plas
170pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
170pt, Tac (5) ml (flakk) razorback c/w las/plas
70pt, scout (5) camo cloak
Fast
180pt, Nephilim fighter, tl hb & avenger mega bolter
Heavy
125pt, Vindicator
125pt, Vindicator

2000pt

Had to re-shuffle as las/plas are 75pt not 70pt so was 25pt over if did that list.

This one better? Very shooty and rounded, so more like an all comers list.

I like it. and only a few thing to paint up :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Question?

Would 2x darkshouds be better than one fighter?
Reason being that a 4+ cover save is quite easy to come across on tanks now, giving them stealth, to give a 3+ cover save might be nice?

So one shroud per 2 las/plas & 1 vindi, and it rides behind them getting a 4+ cover save which would go down to 2+ with shrouded.

Thoughts?
 

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The issue with the Shrouded I have is that it's on a very fragile vehicle. Tau especially can take a speeder down very quickly. Jink is no good versus Markerlights or even Whirlwind rounds, etc. If it's going to be one stand, an aircraft is more survivable as a single target.
 

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Rattlehead
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The issue with the Shrouded I have is that it's on a very fragile vehicle. Tau especially can take a speeder down very quickly. Jink is no good versus Markerlights or even Whirlwind rounds, etc. If it's going to be one stand, an aircraft is more survivable as a single target.
I don't think so - the Darkshroud only has a Heavy Bolter (not even Twin Linked), so you may as well Flat Out it every turn. This gives it a 5+ Jink, improved to 4+ for Flat Out, improved to 2+ for Shrouded. I think it's pretty survivable, but anything that ignores/removes cover will be problematic (Heldrakes being the primary concern, dealing d3 + 1 Str 7 hits to AV10 Open Topped is usually terminal).

Midnight
 

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Tau have the ability to remove cover across the board. Volley Fire from noise marines would also do it. Shells from the STR:5 Whirlwind that denies cover. Helldrakes as mentioned. Flamers of Tzeentch. Land Raider Redeemers. Hellhounds. Burna Boyz in a looted Vehicle with burna. Getting Assaulted. Psyflame. I just don't see a A:10 open topped vehicle managing to make shrouding work for it.
 

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Rattlehead
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Tau have the ability to remove cover across the board. Volley Fire from noise marines would also do it. Shells from the STR:5 Whirlwind that denies cover. Helldrakes as mentioned. Flamers of Tzeentch. Land Raider Redeemers. Hellhounds. Burna Boyz in a looted Vehicle with burna. Getting Assaulted. Psyflame. I just don't see a A:10 open topped vehicle managing to make shrouding work for it.
Removing cover to a decent degree; 2 Markerlights. Increasing BS by 1 so you don't just miss; another Markerlight. Sparing a unit that's in position to shoot at an 80pt vehicle - very valuable. This is not even great odds of success - I'd certainly want at least 4 Markerlights on there to reduce the cover save to 5+ and BS to 4, if nothing else.

Incendiary Castellan Missiles are Str4. Daemon Flamers need to get close to your vehicle base at T4, 2 wounds each, no EW, 5+ saves, and are not even approaching an always-include any more. Redeemers, Burna Boyz, assault, and Psyflame weapons all need to get close. Hellhounds are only Str5 and non-Ordnance. That's a pretty small selection of weapons that are realistically hurting you, across 1 or 2 of the less common armies (Tau and Daemons, although I imagine more Tau players will appear as the old fans return alongside the bandwagon).

Not an infallible tactic, I'd agree, but it is decently survivable for just 80pts.

Midnight
 

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for the TAU, two marker lights remove cover save totally in the new 'dex. You don't need to reduce it, it's gone. Two marker lights to remove cover, two to vector in Missiles. I agree you're getting some marker lights drained off more valid targets, but that's about it.

I am less sanguine about your ability to keep away from all the other flame weapons I mentioned, but that's why everyone gets an opinion. I guess you don't face Noise Marines much as you ignored the bolter/ignores cover set.

My Dark Angels won't ever field specialty skimmers, I don't believe they're a good choice. We'veboth said why, so it's fair to say we simply disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
cheers for the advise on the Vengeance's, I knew they where fragile, but another perspective is always helpful.
Think i'll go with the jetfighter, as I already have one of these, and I don't really need to have an army that needs a linch pin, that if fails leaves the door open for pain.

Tactic's will have to be enough. :shok:

Some great advise, and many thanks.
Joe
 
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