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Discussion Starter #1
BA

HQ -
Mephy - 250

Troops -
ASM (10) - 2 meltas, power fist - 235
ASM (10) - 2 flamers, power sword - 205

Elites -
Priest (x2) - JPs - 150 pts
Fragioso - grapple, melta, frag cannon, pod - 175

Fast Attack -
Baal Pred - AC and bolter sponsons, searchlight - 146
Baal Pred - AC and bolter sponsons, searchlight - 146
2 Landspeeders - double heavy flamers - 120

DA

HQ -
Libby w/ prescience - 65

Troops
Scouts (10) - snipers, cloaks, hvy bolter - 148
Scouts (5) - power axe, ML w/ flakk upgrade, cloaks - 110

Fast Attack - 2 Landspeeders - typhoon pattern w/ heavy bolters - 150

Aegis Defense Line w/ quad gun - 100


Thinking I like the way this will play out though I realize I can switch out a few units here and there in order to bring in a raven or upgrade some gear on some units. Thinking of switching speeders for a BA vindi and DA whirlwind but I lose the number of shots and I like the choice given by my double flamer speeders in regards to whether they support my units on objectives or come in as part of the pressure applied in the early turns.



Thanks for the help!
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Made some changes....realized a lot of people weren't stoked on the list from replies on other forums....here's what I got now. For some reason I thought I needed two troops choices from the DA allies. Goal is to have the fast striking units that we're known for but also taking advantage of cheap unit prices to get more boots on the ground and cheap long range support units. The more they have to shoot at, the longer others will have to live on.

HQ - Mephy (250)
HQ - DA Libby with prescience (65)
Elites - Fragioso (melta, grapple, and pod) (175)
Elites - Priest (JP, PSword) (90)
Troops - 10 man ASM (2x melta, storm shield) (230)
Troops - 10 man ASM (2x melta, power sword) (225)
Troops - 10 DA Scouts (snipers, cloaks) (140)
Fast - Dakka Baal (145)
Fast - Dakka Baal (145)
Fast - (2) Landspeeder Tornado (double heavy flamer) (120)
Fast - (2) DA Lamdspeeder Typhoon (heavy bolter) (150)
Heavy - Storm Raven w/ MM (200)
Heavy - DA Whirlwind (65)

Smack dab at 200. Could split the scouts to a min 5 but then I lose dice rolls and unit longevity on the table. I know the frag will probably be wiped early, going for first blood there and I will either use the flamer speeders as early suicide units to follow the dread or keep them hidden from LOS and use them to counter attack any mob units. Got rid of the ADL and flakk scout to bring in the Raven so hopefully that solves anti-air, should at least be enough to take out priority air targets. Taking advantage of the cheap DA typhoons and whirly for long range templates. Question: does prescience work for blast/large blast templates? Thanks!
 

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What sort of fliers are you expecting the SR to help with that the ADL didn't?

Aside from that, I'd drop the SS and the PS from the BA RAS. If you face any mech lists and want first blood, put one of the RAS in a drop pod and get crazy with it's placement. Unless the dice are against you at least one of those Melta shots will be within 6" and you'll blow up (hopefully the biggest and worst) a tank. I do this frequently and it works out very well, though if you're facing infantry the Fragioso will do that very well all the same.
 

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Listen to ntaw, he knows what he is talking about!

I tried out the drop podding melta gun assault squad this weekend. Popped a Land Raider Crusader. So they got there points back and then some immediately.

Fragioso is always a blast too, podding in and then using that template (twice!) to fuck up pretty much most types of infantry with rending. I am making it a permanent addition to my lists.

I would honestly not bother with the Raven: For a cheaper price you can have the ADL with quad gun plus a 5-man SS with Camo Cloaks. Go to ground and get the 2+ cover save behind the Aegis and they are a bitch to remove holding your home objective. All for 170pts. You get so much more for 170pts (scoring units, an anti-flier and anti-infantry gun), and it won't be destroyed with a lucky one shot (unlike the Raven).

Libby DA with prescience is fantastic, as long as you have decent units to give the re-rolls too! I always use him to fire the Quad Gun behind an ADL, while giving a missile launcher devastator squad prescience, for twin-linked krak missile shots, which are really nasty. It actually negates the need for expensive flakk missiles, since if you shoot x4 kraks at fliers, you have 8 chances of rolling a 6 with prescience. And it's +1 Strength over flakk missiles as a nice bonus. So again you are getting a very good deal for 65pts if you are using him with the right units...And to answer your question: Yes, prescience can be used to re-roll to scatter blast weapons. So you can twin-link those frag missiles too. So add horde-control to the list if using with missile launchers.
 

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Listen to ntaw, he knows what he is talking about!
Shucks. Glad to see my musings on BA tactics are working for people :victory:

you are getting a very good deal for 65pts if you are using him with the right units
If you weigh that model's worth against that of Flakk for every ML he is 25 points more...and you get a Ld10 model in the unit with a force weapon just in case someone deep strikes/flies backfield to challenge you in CC. Best chances of 6 rolling from one squad on flier defense I've read of yet. Honestly though, every DA list I make has a TLLC Mortis dreadnought in it for the Heldrakes that - ahem - used to run rampant even with the use of Stormravens. That shit is tits for flier defense, I'm going to nab up another AoBR dread off eBay and use my autocannon arms for a second.

That being said, I love my Stormravens. TLMM and a TLLC with HB sponsons and you best bet I'm getting good at moving up with LoS but out of range of vector strikes. Can't put your model on mine, can ya sucker? I've almost stopped using them to transport troops on to the field and just use it as a fire base of go fuck y'self. It's been working against the CSM I face all the time. I also play against Tau and Necrons, but those players are new and not nearly the challenge the CSM player is. Lately I've been listing about Mephiston and two Stormravens. It's just...so nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sweet, so glad to finally have some positive feedback. On B&C no one said anything for almost a week and when he finally spoke up, he ripped into the list pretty hard and almost ignored a lot of what I wanted and pasted a copy of what I see a lot of people are running nowadays. The whole reason for DA allies were for the cheap libby, scouts, typhoons, and whirly. I may try the ADL approach after all, I just know a lot of people like to talk trash about lists that don't take advantage of the BA Raven.

In regards to the fragioso, would it be better and more flexible to run a sternguard with combis rather than the ASM or should I combat squad one of the ASMs with the 2 meltas in a pod and hope they get inside 6"? I feel like the sternguard would force me to try and drop them more conservatively due to their cost but if I pod half of the ASMs the other 5 are SoL without jump packs. Going on vacation for a week so I won't be able to put this into play but I'll do a little more tweaking to create a list with the ADL again as well as tweak the second.

Your input makes me feel a lot better about my initial list since I don't even own a raven yet so it'd be something I'd have to pick up before putting the second list into play. I have the funds and will be getting one soon regardless, but it takes off the pressure of getting it assembled and painted since I usually like to paint a lot of the smaller details before assembling.
 

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Shucks. Glad to see my musings on BA tactics are working for people :victory:



If you weigh that model's worth against that of Flakk for every ML he is 25 points more...and you get a Ld10 model in the unit with a force weapon just in case someone deep strikes/flies backfield to challenge you in CC. Best chances of 6 rolling from one squad on flier defense I've read of yet. Honestly though, every DA list I make has a TLLC Mortis dreadnought in it for the Heldrakes that - ahem - used to run rampant even with the use of Stormravens. That shit is tits for flier defense, I'm going to nab up another AoBR dread off eBay and use my autocannon arms for a second.

That being said, I love my Stormravens. TLMM and a TLLC with HB sponsons and you best bet I'm getting good at moving up with LoS but out of range of vector strikes. Can't put your model on mine, can ya sucker? I've almost stopped using them to transport troops on to the field and just use it as a fire base of go fuck y'self. It's been working against the CSM I face all the time. I also play against Tau and Necrons, but those players are new and not nearly the challenge the CSM player is. Lately I've been listing about Mephiston and two Stormravens. It's just...so nice.
Well, I think it's so effective and points efficient I find myself using the same firebase for my Chaos lists too: ADL Quad Gun, Havocs with ML instead of Devastators with ML, then a Herlad of Tzeentch (45pts!) for divination, then Pink Horrors on the objective who when going to ground get a 2+ re-rollable cover save (since they re-roll all saves of 1's). Arguably nastier than my DA/BA firebase with the scouts and devies, except as you point out, with the Librarian and his force weapon you are getting at least some protection against anyone who charges the firebase. Either way both firebases are very good at everything: Objective holding and long range anti-infantry/tank/flier capabilities. And in reality, I am finding that once people realise how resilient my firebase is they leave it alone and focus on more immediate threats (my drop podders and stuff).

That is clever tactical positioning of your Raven there. Will have to watch out for that when I am playing my (or against) Heldrake and trying to vector strike!

I have an AOBR dread gathering dust somewhere so was thinking of doing exactly what you are thinking!
 

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The whole reason for DA allies were for the cheap libby, scouts, typhoons, and whirly.
Personally I prefer to play Belial and Mephiston as DA/BA allies. Got some greasy wins with those two.

I may try the ADL approach after all, I just know a lot of people like to talk trash about lists that don't take advantage of the BA Raven.
An ADL with a ILC will work better than the QG if you're facing AV12. QG's work (and let me promise you I am fully eating previous words here) but glancing on 5's and penning on 6's just isn't good to count on. The thing with ADL's is that they have to be manned, whereas the Mortis dread may cost almost twice as much you don't have to spend the points manning it and since it's never taking a Ld test you can basically place it right at the edge of the table without consequence.

In regards to the fragioso, would it be better and more flexible to run a sternguard with combis rather than the ASM or should I combat squad one of the ASMs with the 2 meltas in a pod and hope they get inside 6"?
The Fragioso is a great idea for shredding troops or some light side armour. I don't like Sternguard generally. I pretty much only really dig their use when in conjunction with Kantor in a Crimson Fists army. If you put RAS in the drop pod you gotta keep them 10 men strong, and you simply don't have to worry about scattering. Simply place your DP right next to what you want to blow up and scatter away. ID will stop you from scattering in to anything, and even if you scatter 12", you have a 6" deployment and 6" melta range. If you can't get range with that DP you aren't being ballsy enough with your deployment or the dice just friggin' hate you. Key things: 10 men, DP practically on top of your target.

Just to add to this, if you take a Locator Beacon on the DP you can then deep strike a second RAS with jump packs right where the first one went to further sew destruction.

a lot of people like to talk trash about lists that don't take advantage of the BA Raven
As a viable air defense, one just doesn't cut it. I've tried real bad. That being said, I'm facing 2 Heldrakes, flying Daemon Princes that VSs at S8 AP2, and a Night Scythe. I've gotten used to abusing the 12" melta range on mine, and coming in 18" on an angle to prevent getting VSed off the board the first turn I show up, but they really benefit from having on-table AA support. Whether that's an ADL or a Mortis or whatever, something high with Interceptor and Skyfire on the board PLUS a SR is tits. Shy of that, you basically just gotta roll with two SRs, which is both expensive for your wallet and for your list.

And in reality, I am finding that once people realise how resilient my firebase is they leave it alone and focus on more immediate threats (my drop podders and stuff).
My opponents very rarely take on my sniper scouts/predator/ADL w.QG combo. Practically ignore it until they have to charge the objective there if they get that far. In the interest of gaming, I've retired the list that I use that on 'cuz she's undefeated in 10 matches. If the local GW ever runs a tournament or escalation league on days where I'm not at work it'll get dusted off and come back out for some ass kicking for sure.
 

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I've started using a Techmarine and Dev Squad with an ADL. Give them the cover and the big guns. If I have points to spare I've stuck the Techmarine in the Stormraven with a couple of servitors and repair hull points each turn with it. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Done a bit more editing and wondering if this list is viable or not with the strength of the squad I'm dropping in 1st turn. Haven't run sternguard before but hoping that they'll be able to survive a bit longer than the fragioso I normally use and do a lot more killin as well.

HQ -
Captain Tycho (normal) - 175

Elites -
Sang Priest w/ JP, Corbs - 180
Sternguard (x5) (1x combi-melta and drop pod) - 165

Troops -
RAS #1 (x10) (x2 melta)
RAS #2 (x10) (x2 metla)

FA -
Baal Pred (dakka) - 145
Baal Pred (dakka) - 145

Heavy -
Devastators (x5) (x4 MLs) - 130
Stormraven (melta and ac) - 200

DA Allies
HQ - Libby - 65
Troops - Scouts (x5) (sniper rifles) - 60
FA - Land Speeder Typhoon (x2) (heavy bolters/MLs) - 150
Heavy - Whirlwind - 65

Fortifications - ADL w/ quad gun


Tycho and Corbs drop in w/ the stern.
DA Libby mans Quad and throws prescience on Devs, Typhoons, or Whirlwind.
Devs behind ADL, Whirl finds a sport hidden from LOS.
Typhoons can hang back or move to another flank to provide support in areas out of reach of Whirly/Devs.
Scouts hold a mid-field objective along with one of the combat squadded RAS groups.
RAS groups with 2x meltas go huntin some side/rear armor shots.
Raven does its thang along with the Baal Preds, ideally will try to funnel armies into range of template droppin guns.

Options are to switch in Gabriel Seth for Tycho to give sternguard more combi-meltas but we'd lose the Dead Man's hand and 2+ in exchange for an extra wound and loss of a one shot melta. The scouts also currently don't have camo cloaks so the survivability of the squad suffers a bit. Could drop the whirly/typhoons or both but want to keep the cheap libby to man the Quad and cast prescience on the Devs to provide another anti-air option should the quad or Raven fail (thanks for that suggestion, been rollin the re-rolls on dice and have gotten at least 1 hit per 8 consistently so not a bad thing to use in case of emergency).

Thanks for all of y'all's help up to now. Appreciate all of the input.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that dropping the whirl and typhoon would allow for either providing upgrades to some of the bare squads OR possibly adding a locator beacon to the pod and dropping in assault termies on it the next turn. Corb's FNP bubble would be super annoying when they first have the stern to kill off and now have to kill units with 2+/3++/5+++ which are now blocking access to remaining sternguard and are coming to bash some faces. All the while the Baals, Raven, and RAS melta squads are en route.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Variant list with added termies and subtraction of 1 dakka baal and the 2 typhoons would be the following....



HQ -

Captain Tycho (normal) - 175


Elites -

Sang Priest w/ JP, Corbs - 180

Sternguard (x6) (3x combi-melta and drop pod w/ locator beacon) - 210

Assault Terminators (x5) (4x thunder hammer and storm shield) - 220


Troops -

RAS #1 (x10) (x2 melta and storm shield for sgt) - 230

RAS #2 (x10) (x2 metla) - 210


FA -

Baal Pred (dakka) - 145


Heavy -

Devastators (x5) (x4 MLs) - 130

Stormraven (melta and ac) - 200


DA Allies

HQ - Libby - 65

Scouts (x5) (sniper rifes & camo cloaks) - 70

Heavy - Whirlwind - 65


Fortifications - ADL w/ quad gun - 100


Adding one sternguard and 2 combi-meltas improves survivability and 2 more melta shots to the squad.

Adding the termies provides a shield for survivors on the following turn, after which Corbs and Tycho would join the termies.

Adding a storm shield to one of the RAS squads gives a bit more survivability to the 5 man, 2x melta combat squadded group and allows them to spread out from the JP priest's FNP bubble but all it takes is that one bad roll for the 3++ and 2 look out sirs before they can target the meltas (except for precision shots of course).

Scouts gain an extra +1 cover save.

All in all traded out 2 KPs in form of typhoons and dakka Baal for 1 KP in the termies. Lose x4 ML shots, x6 heavy bolter shots (speeders) and x4 AC shots, x6 heavy bolter shots (dakka baal) in exchange for stronger initial close proximity punch.
 

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So how are you playing them?

Fast units:
RAS units with priest (I would drop SS, not super useful TBH a PS for the priest would be better)
Baal
Raven
Sternguard

Stationary units:
Scouts with ADL
Devastators

Slow Units:
Terminators
HQ + corbs (where are you putting them btw)

So uhh... yeah. Tactics?

This is potentially good. You could use a hammer & anvil type strat, but I'm not entirely sure what you're doing with this.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
No opportunites to play test yet...:(
The list I posted just prior to this one is a bit more stationary with more support in the form of another dakka baal and 2 LS typhoons but I was investing so much in the drop pod, I felt that I needed to get them more immediate support by providing more targets in range for opponents to focus on.

Tycho/Corbs/Stern altogether in the pod w/ beacon.
Termies deep strike on it the next turn. Corbs and Tycho join them and abandon remnants of the stern.

Plan on using the DA libby on the quad, devs behind the ADL with whirly also in cover or out of LOS within 12" of libby for options to throw prescience on. It was mentioned before that krak missiles at fliers with 8 shots from prescience can still be effective as a alternative to the quad/raven and the MLs have the benefit of fragging infantry. Whirly would also be helpful for infantry killin with the ability to ignore cover with one of its missile options.

Baal and Raven provide support up front, will try to bring Baal around on the opposite flank from the stern/termies/tycho/corbs. Raven will go wherever needed.

Scouts would hold an objective, RAS squads would combat squad and hunt armor/big targets with 2 meltas in 5 man squads. Included the SS on one of em to give the squad the invul save to hopefully give another turn of shooting for the meltas. The other 2xmelta 5-man squad would have the priest to provide the FNP. I guess combat squadding would be situational as to whether I want 10 man squads to hold objectives or 5 man squads to hop around and hunt.
 

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Did you take the Devastators from the BA side of things? Pretty sure they're cheaper on the DA side. They will replace the Whirlwind, which is really only partially useful against blobs of infantry. You can then use the points you spent on the Whirlwind to bulk out that Dev squad to 10 members, or add a couple Sternguard, give your SR HB sponsons...the list goes on. Any of which will likely be more effective for you than one relatively weak and potentially scattering pie plate. Also, like before, I would still drop the SS from the RAS sergeant. It's just not worth the points when you can put a PS on the WS5 priest and they have FnP to boot.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Devs actually cost exactly the same for x4 MLs, 90 base with 10 a piece for MLs while DA is 70 base with 15 a piece for MLs. Sorry bout the SS -> PS, must've forgotten that it was mentioned before. I guess my reasoning for the whirly is that it will probably survive the entire game while the stern is out in the open straight away and the dakka baal provides what the HB sponsons would allowing the raven to focus on something entirely different than the dakka baal. I know the raven has PotMS but even then it's usually going to be fighting other things in the air or targetting heavier infantry. You have to expect to see some blobs at some point for the whirlwhind to shoot at, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Here's a full BA 2k list that I've been thinking about. May try to find points for a vindi so it's a bit of a 1-2 punch between what drops in early and old AV13 armor wall between 2 baals and a vindi. Took out the DA allies here because I no longer needed the cheap libby to cast prescience on long range units. Also realized that FoB is double force org so I may as well take advantage of the good units BA/SM have to offer me in elites.

HQ -
Tycho - 175

Elites -
Corbs and a JP Priest - 180
8 Sternguard (2x combi melta) (drop pod w/ locator beacon) - 255
5 assault terminators (x4 TH/SS) - 220
Furioso Dreadnought (frag cannon and melta) (drop pod) - 160
(may change furioso to blood talons and flamer to really make it a priority for opponent to address)

Troops -
10 Assault Marines (x2 melta) - 210
10 Assault Marines (x2 melta) - 210
5 Assault Marines (drop pod) - 100

Fast Attack -
Baal Pred (AC + hvy bolters) - 145
Baal Pred (AC + hvy bolters) - 145

Heavy -
Stormraven (AC + MM) - 200

Total: 2000 pts

Tycho & Corbs join SG and drop with Furi on t1. Termies DS and Assault Pod drops turn 2. Termies DS on SG, Assault pod drops on an objective. After termies DS in, Corbs joins them, possibly Tycho as well.
 

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I wouldn't go BT on the Furioso if you're drop podding it in. You have way more damage potential on arrival with the Fragioso, with the BT you just kinda show up and sit there. You still get the MG and HF shots, but it pales when compared to the 3 template mayhem that you can get out of the Fragioso. It's pretty much guaranteed to be a high priority target as whatever squad it lands next to is going to get beaten up bad.

What is your goal for the Sternguard, why do you have them in your list? You have combi meltas on them, which combined with your two MG RAS indicated that you face a lot of mech in your opponent's lists. What is your game plan for this squad?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The sternguard have the combis to add flexibility to them in case I'm facing some armor that I need to pop immediately. They're more of something that can survive a few turns and take pot shots with rapid fire and then the survivors provide cover fire for the terminators after the deep strike on the SG pod. I feel like I've created a decently balanced list, the melta is all just there for multiple anti armor options.

I could probably drop one of the 10 man squads for either scouts or a tac squad to bring in an ADL w/ quad so the raven doesn't have to take on all fliers by itself. Maybe drop the JP off of the priest and drop it with the podded assault squad so they have a little more help holding their objective? I'm thinking about freeing up points for the hurricane bolters but without other anti-flier, I don't think I'll ever get to use them.
 

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My reason for asking is I personally don't like Sternguard in BA lists. I was curious as to how you would use them/why you would use them instead of a cheaper tactical squad, but if you ever come up against MCs you could really use their special ammo. The list is pretty decently balanced.

Dropping the Priest's JP and putting him in the DP with the assault squad is good stuff. Use those points to accommodate a power sword on the Priest and a Flamer to help clear objectives for the RAS he's with.

When it comes to SR's with HB sponsons I'm a fan. I use a TLLC/TLMM SR for anti air, and I use PotMS to strafe infantry with the sponsons. I would say drop the JP on the priest and one TH/SS in the terminators to give it the sponsons, but putting a PS on the priest and a flamer in the RAS DPing in makes them more effective.

What sort of fliers are you facing that you're concerned about the SR?
 
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