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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just had to toy with this, after seeing the leaks of the new Mont'ka formations:

Steel Host formation (tanks w/in 12" of the TC gain PE)

Hydra - Enclosed Crew Compartment
LR Exterminator - Heavy Bolters x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
LR Exterminator - Heavy Bolters x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
LR Exterminator - Heavy Bolters x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
Command Executioner - Plasma Cannons x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
+ Executioner - Plasma Cannon x2, Hull Heavy Bolter

Emperor's Fist Armored Company Formation (tanks w/in 12" of the TC are BS4, and some fun shenanigans with Tank Shock, and using Enginseers to force worse AP rolls)

Engineer
Engineer
Engineer

Command Punisher - KC Pask, Heavy Bolters x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
+ Punisher - Heavy Bolters x2, Hull Heavy Bolter
LR Battle Tank - Plasma Cannons x2, Lascannon
LR Battle Tank - Plasma Cannons x2, Lascannon
LR Vanquisher - Plasma Cannons x2, Lascannon

2000/2000
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Not sure if the "Tank Commander" slot in the Armored Company needs a squadron around him (the phrasing of that in the codex is so hazily weird that I don't even know).

Also: pure tanks? Lies! Just because your engiseers are more machine than man doesn't make them not-Infantry!
 

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The Battle Group Command Formation stipulates that you can take Pask in place of the Tank Commander, the Emperor's Fist Formation does not. Makes me think you can't take him where you have him.

Also, plasma on Battle Tanks?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Bah. I'll have the Enginseers hide under the chassis or something.

As far as I'm concerned with Tank Commanders, it doesn't matter if it says unit or otherwise. It's the Tank Commander entry itself that demands a second (or third) tank to be in squadron with it.

it's not like the Steel Host, where it says '1 Hydra' instead of '1 unit of Hydras'. That's the formation being picky.

Edit: @ntaw snuck a response in there!

Knight Commander Pask is an upgrade from the Tank Commander. In my mind, that says it doesn't have to 'allow' it. It's not like some formations where you pick a Librarian vs Tiggy, etc.

Also, PCs seemed like the meanest possible guns to strap onto the Battle Tank's howitzers. Honestly, they don't relaly need sponsons, nothing quite matches up. But since THAT formation had BS4, it seemed like a better option to drop more blast templates.
 

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If that's the way it works for Formations then why have the stipulation in one spot and not on the other? Lots of Formations have these and plenty people feel that stipulations are necessary for Unique Characters, which is what Pask is regardless of how he's taken.

Those plasma sponsons will only be firing when the Battle Cannon doesn't thanks to Ordnance causing Snap Shots. It would be a mean combo for sure, but it seems like a lot of points for something that will be very situational.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hmm. Forgot about the ordinance rules, because honestly, I never use em. I'll probably either drop them, or slap on heavy bolters instead to hope for random 6s.

The way I see it, MOST special characters are their own entry. For instance, a Librarian is not upgraded to Tigurius. He's bought separately, with his own datasheet and his own entry. KC Pask, however, is a point increase on the basic Tank Commander, just like upgrading a Sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant.

For instance. The Bladewing Assault Brotherhood says that you must take a Captain or Chaplain, with a footnote that you could take Shrike instead. But Shrike isn't something that the Captain upgrades to normally, he's a special character, and certainly not a Chaplain upgrade.
 

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I get that Pask is an upgrade, what you haven't explained is why there's a caveat for his allowance in one Formation but not another. If there was no caveat anywhere I would flat out agree with you, but no rationalization of Pask's status as a Unique Character available through upgrade gets around that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Which formation makes mention of it? Neither the Steel Host nor the new Emperor's Fist one has that notation.
 

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The Battle Group Command Formation stipulates that you can take Pask in place of the Tank Commander


Formation top right, then the one we're discussing is two below it. That is the only thing that doesn't fit your explanation.

EDIT: looking back at the Steel Host, it doesn't have that stipulation either. This is a reoccurring thing across all Formations released for every army that I'm aware of, some list Unique options others don't. I always thought that if it wasn't listed it isn't allowed, otherwise why write any stipulations anywhere?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Fair enough. I was never looking at the full battle group, because I couldn't care less about it. I'm actually sort of surprised, because Pask still is different then all other datasheets. Oh well.
 

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Put multi meltas on the vanquisher sponsons. There's not much point shooting plasma cannons at armour when you can get MMs cheaper

The LRBTs are probably better without sponsons to be honest. I suppose the heavy bolters give you the option to shoot nine HB shots if you don't want to shoot the battle cannon (for situations where you just want to finish off a unit reduced to one or two models) but you have so many high volume of fire dakka tanks I can't imagine that being a situation that's going to come up often, if ever.
 

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Fair enough. I was never looking at the full battle group, because I couldn't care less about it. I'm actually sort of surprised, because Pask still is different then all other datasheets. Oh well.
You could still get a more-or-less all-tank battle group with Pask Command Group, Armored Company with vanilla Tank Commander, and an Artillery Company. Only 2 Engiseers and a Chimera'd CCS non-tank, and you get twin-linked ignores cover Basilisks & Manticores, maybe Wyverns on the other side of your deployment zone... Even if most of the Orders shenanigans the battle group grants work rather better with infantry & CCSes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You could still get a more-or-less all-tank battle group with Pask Command Group, Armored Company with vanilla Tank Commander, and an Artillery Company. Only 2 Engiseers and a Chimera'd CCS non-tank, and you get twin-linked ignores cover Basilisks & Manticores, maybe Wyverns on the other side of your deployment zone... Even if most of the Orders shenanigans the battle group grants work rather better with infantry & CCSes.
So basically you're suggesting a Cadian Battle Company with the following:

Pask as the HQ slot (no lord commisars)

An Armored Fist Company as the Core

And then the Artillery Battery as the Auxillary and... what? CCS in the Chimera/Taurox and pretend it's another tank?


That COULD work, actually.
 

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I mean the way it's written in the book, you could hypothetically interpret it as implying that Pask can be taken whenever "Tank Commander" is written. The same way you might have a footnote to define something the first time it comes up in a paper, but you don't define it after that initial instance.

It would look rather redundant to me if it listed that you could take Pask in place of a Tank Commander twice within about 3 inches of each other, but if they didn't put it at all I'd think people might argue "it names Tank Commander explicitly in the description, so you can't take Pask."
 

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The same way you might have a footnote to define something the first time it comes up in a paper, but you don't define it after that initial instance.
There's Space Marine Formations (among others) that stipulate only specific Unique Characters may be taken in place. Take for example this piece of recent literature, which states that only Shrike and no other Uniques may be taken in place of the Formation's Captain:



Whereas this Formation from the same book has a very different listing:



Those stipulations are there/not there for a reason, gentlemanly agreements before specific matches aside.
 
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