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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi folks, after playing codex SM for awhile, I think I want to expand my army, to include Vulkan.

Below is my army list :

HQ - 190 pts

Vulkan He'stan

Troops - 560 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x Melta Bomb, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, Rhino)
Scout Squad (Sergeant Telion, 3 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Elite - 735 pts

Ironclad Dreadnought (Drop Pod)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 TH/SS, Land Raider Redeemer)

Fast Attack - 180 pts

Land Speeder (MM)
Land Speeder (MM)
Land Speeder (MM)

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)


The plan :
- Vulkan will go with the Assault Terminators, in the Land Raider Redeemer.
- The tactical squads will follow up with their Rhinos, also securing the middle objective. The tacticals will not be divided into tactical squads, as all of them will go in their Rhinos.
- Sniper with Telion will guard the nearest objective, as usual.
- The Ironclad Dreadnought will deepstrike with drop pod, to support Vulkan and his terminators.
- Dreadnought with 2 x TL AC will deploy on own deployment zone, to provide some firepower and some transport popping capability.
- The Land Speeder will deep strike, and attempt to destroy enemy tanks or transports with their MM.
- Vindicators and Predators will provide fire support.

Alternatives :
- Replace all Landspeeders with Attack Bike, giving 5 Bike (2 x Flamer/Meltagun, 1 x MM, 1 x Combi Melta, 1 x TL Bolter)
- Replace Dreadnought with Ironclad Dreadnought, giving more punch in close combat but less long range firepower


A lot of corrections or suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks a lot! :grin:
 

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Spanner in the works...
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The list is fine, except that I would drop the 3 MM speeders for 2 typhoons. Maybe it's just personal preference. If you do keep those speeders (don't get the bikes or secong ironclad), then I would advise you to DS them rather than have them taken out T1.
Tbh, you could have done more with the vulkan aspect of this e.g. Take a MotF with some melta dreads in the HS section, but that's up to you.
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #3
The list is fine, except that I would drop the 3 MM speeders for 2 typhoons. Maybe it's just personal preference. If you do keep those speeders (don't get the bikes or secong ironclad), then I would advise you to DS them rather than have them taken out T1.
Tbh, you could have done more with the vulkan aspect of this e.g. Take a MotF with some melta dreads in the HS section, but that's up to you.
Thanks for the advice.

So, my updated list and tactics are as follows :
Troops - 560 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x Melta Bomb, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, Rhino)
Scout Squad (Sergeant Telion, 3 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Elite - 735 pts

Ironclad Dreadnought (Drop Pod)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 TH/SS, Land Raider Redeemer)

Fast Attack - 180 pts

Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)
Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)


The plan :
- Vulkan will go with the Assault Terminators, in the Land Raider Redeemer.
- The tactical squads will follow up with their Rhinos, also securing the middle objective. The tacticals will not be divided into tactical squads, as all of them will go in their Rhinos.
- Sniper with Telion will guard the nearest objective, as usual.
- The Ironclad Dreadnought will deepstrike with drop pod, to support Vulkan and his terminators.
- Dreadnought with 2 x TL AC will deploy on own deployment zone, to provide some firepower and some transport popping capability.
- The Land Speeder will deep strike and provide long-rang fire support.
- Vindicators and Predators will provide fire support.

Alternatives :
- Replace Ironclad and Dreadnought with 5 x Assault Terminator and Land Raider
I am thinking of replacing my Ironclad and the Dreadnought, with another Land Raider and Assault Terminator, giving more TH/SS and getting more benefit from Vulkan.

What do you think about that?
 

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Spanner in the works...
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Sounds good. One thing I will say is don't deep strike the speeders, as they want to be sitting back and shooting. And keep the dreads :wink:
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #5
The list is fine, except that I would drop the 3 MM speeders for 2 typhoons. Maybe it's just personal preference. If you do keep those speeders (don't get the bikes or secong ironclad), then I would advise you to DS them rather than have them taken out T1.
Tbh, you could have done more with the vulkan aspect of this e.g. Take a MotF with some melta dreads in the HS section, but that's up to you.
Is there any particular reasons why I shouldn't get the bikes? I think for the Land Speeders, using Typhoon ML will bring more firepower, but also will reduce the their effectiveness against armor, and also don't benefit from Vulkan's chapter tactics.
 

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I would go 2x tornado 'speeders with MM/HF and 2x typhoon speeders with TML/HB. And 2x flamer/MM Tax (also dropping the MB) instead of melta/ML. For a competitive list the ironclad in DP is not as solid a choice as a second rifleman. Also be sure to buy your LRR an MM. Your pred would likely do better as AC/LC and I don't favour the vindis here over simply two more AC/LC preds. Finally all termies should be TH/SS thus benefiting from Vulkan and besides they are better against nearly anything termies should fight. Think of it this way; 2x LC are valued at 30pts, TH/SS are valued at 45-60pts and Vulkan multiplies that. Why not have some free points?

I suggest dropping the scouts to pay for all the above.
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #7
I would go 2x tornado 'speeders with MM/HF and 2x typhoon speeders with TML/HB. And 2x flamer/MM Tax (also dropping the MB) instead of melta/ML. For a competitive list the ironclad in DP is not as solid a choice as a second rifleman. Also be sure to buy your LRR an MM. Your pred would likely do better as AC/LC and I don't favour the vindis here over simply two more AC/LC preds. Finally all termies should be TH/SS thus benefiting from Vulkan and besides they are better against nearly anything termies should fight. Think of it this way; 2x LC are valued at 30pts, TH/SS are valued at 45-60pts and Vulkan multiplies that. Why not have some free points?

I suggest dropping the scouts to pay for all the above.
I don't use TH/SS on all of my terminators, because if I face horde units, such as Orks or IG's, I lose the punch of the terminators because of the sheer number of the enemy. Because TH/SS's attacks is limited, it's killing power against horde units are greatly reduced. On the contrary, LC are better against horde units, but will not do much against MC or tanks.

I use Ironclad because I want that Ironclad, with Vulkan, to take the fight to the enemy. But after reviewing my list, I think that second dreadnoughts is much better, because Vulkan + terminators will struggle also against good CC units.

So, after reviewing your suggestions my army are as follows :

===============
HQ - 190 pts

Vulkan

Troops - 560 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x MM, 1 x PF, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, Rhino)

Scout Squad (Sergeant Telion, 3 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Elite - 735 pts

Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 TH/SS, Land Raider Crusader)

Fast Attack - 180 pts

Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)
Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)
===============

Any other suggestions?
 

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The list is fine, except that I would drop the 3 MM speeders for 2 typhoons. Maybe it's just personal preference. If you do keep those speeders (don't get the bikes or secong ironclad), then I would advise you to DS them rather than have them taken out T1.
Tbh, you could have done more with the vulkan aspect of this e.g. Take a MotF with some melta dreads in the HS section, but that's up to you.
2 typhoons is not a great idea. Personally I don't like them, but its not playing to the strenths of the salamanders. I would take speeders with heavy flamer and multimelta.

I play my speeders agressively and my speeders win me most of my games.

now some advice...

I would also think about 3x multimelta attack bikes. Well worth it.

I don't like telon. I'ed drop him like a stone. Just make sure you have a ML in the squad. Its nice to hjave an extra ML when you have 10+ raiders flying towards you.

Have you put a heavy flamer and melta gun on the iron clad? I would if you really want him. Personally... I have two iron clads and I don't use them competatively now. They are excellent, but I can't justify it unless they are sitting inside my two Lucius pattern drop pods. AC dreads are amazing, cheaper and will live longer than your sacrificial Iron clads.

I normally take a librarian behind my vindictions with null zone. It really upsets Grey Night players.

Also something for you to think about... In my 1500 point ultramarine list I have 7 multimeltas while you only have 2 in 2k. I think MM are the best antitank codex SM have adn yours are all TL. Get more MM in your list.

Its a matter of opinion, but i don't take tacticals with MM. It just they way I play them... I don't tend to want them within 12 inch of horrible things so I tend to take ML... but your choice.


Land raider... take extra armour. Take a MM.

Terminators.... I play 3 TH and 2 LC... I'm starting to think 5 TH is the way forward..... it is with your list.... MC TH!? Whhhhhhaaaat!

Any who.... I think your first list was better tbh.... your on the right track.
 

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Much Latch says reflects my own experiences.

Riflemen are amazing. Take them over ironclads.

Take MM and EA on raiders.

In a Vulkan list a squad of 3x AB w. MM works well. My last list used 2x tornadoes and 3x AB w. MM and played nicely. I also like typhoons, but perhaps in a Vulkan list they make less sense. 2x2 tornadoes and 1x3 ABs might prove pretty good in FAST.

If you want a psyker to block GK spam, go for allies. Take the WH lord inquisitor with psychic hood. This is both superior to and cheaper than a librarian in that specialised role.

I would not field Telion or scouts in a Vulkan list. An MotF list, maybe.
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
2 typhoons is not a great idea. Personally I don't like them, but its not playing to the strenths of the salamanders. I would take speeders with heavy flamer and multimelta.

I play my speeders agressively and my speeders win me most of my games.

now some advice...

I would also think about 3x multimelta attack bikes. Well worth it.

I don't like telon. I'ed drop him like a stone. Just make sure you have a ML in the squad. Its nice to hjave an extra ML when you have 10+ raiders flying towards you.

Have you put a heavy flamer and melta gun on the iron clad? I would if you really want him. Personally... I have two iron clads and I don't use them competatively now. They are excellent, but I can't justify it unless they are sitting inside my two Lucius pattern drop pods. AC dreads are amazing, cheaper and will live longer than your sacrificial Iron clads.

I normally take a librarian behind my vindictions with null zone. It really upsets Grey Night players.

Also something for you to think about... In my 1500 point ultramarine list I have 7 multimeltas while you only have 2 in 2k. I think MM are the best antitank codex SM have adn yours are all TL. Get more MM in your list.

Its a matter of opinion, but i don't take tacticals with MM. It just they way I play them... I don't tend to want them within 12 inch of horrible things so I tend to take ML... but your choice.


Land raider... take extra armour. Take a MM.

Terminators.... I play 3 TH and 2 LC... I'm starting to think 5 TH is the way forward..... it is with your list.... MC TH!? Whhhhhhaaaat!

Any who.... I think your first list was better tbh.... your on the right track.
Thanks for your advice. I think I can change the Landspeeders into Bike with MM, if that's what you mean. But I don't think I can fit other MM. I agree though that Attack Bike with MM, on a Vulkan list, is superior than Typhoon ML's on Landspeeder. I would also agree to remove Telion, as he useless.

After removing Telion, I decided to add some PF to my Tactical, to give them some edge in CC.

So, after reviewing your advice, this is my latest army list :

HQ - 190 pts

Vulkan

Troops - 555 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x PF, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x PF, Rhino)

Scout Squad (4 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Elite - 725 pts

Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 x TH/SS, Land Raider Redeemer (EA, MM))


Fast Attack - 150 pts

3 x Attack Bike (MM)

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)

There are still 55 points left, which I can use for HK Missiles, or EA's for Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, or Predators. Any suggestions? I can also use the remaining points to fit in an attack bike, but I think that's pretty useless.
 

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Is Vulkan rolling with the Termi's?
HQ - 190 pts

Vulkan

Troops - 560 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x MM, 1 x PF, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, Rhino)
Scout Squad (Sergeant Telion, 3 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Not entirely sure if the PF is needed. So if you need points for something else I would drop it, otherwise keep it in.

Elite - 735 pts

Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 TH/SS, Land Raider Crusader)

Sounds great. I prefer redeemers though.

Fast Attack - 180 pts

Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)
Land Speeder (Typhoon ML, HB)

I prefer goig with LS with HF/MM, plus this will benefit from Vulkan.

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)
HS is perfect :victory:
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #12
Is Vulkan rolling with the Termi's?


HS is perfect :victory:
Of course he is.

To be honest, I have reviewed my first list, mate. Please review my revised list :biggrin:

HQ - 190 pts

Vulkan

Troops - 555 pts

Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x PF, Rhino)
Tactical Squad (8 x Bolter, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x ML, 1 x PF, Rhino)

Scout Squad (4 Sniper Rifle, 1 x ML)

Elite - 725 pts

Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Dreadnought (2 x TL AC)
Terminator Assault Squad (3 x LC, 2 x TH/SS, Land Raider Redeemer (EA, MM))


Fast Attack - 150 pts

3 x Attack Bike (MM)

Heavy Support - 335 points

Vindicator
Vindicator
Predator (TL LC)
 

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Looks solid mate :)
however, I would still try and find point for a tellion equivalent to take out any big guns aimed at your redeemer.
 

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It's been really interesting watching this list evolve. Of course, the groupthink always pulls in different ways. A concept you may consider is synergy. This means that units move together and support one another. I feel like synergy is somewhat opposed to flexibility.

Having some LCs and some TH/SS on termies is asynergistic. That element is no longer as good at taking out MCs and armour and yet isn't optimised for horde either. It's not clear where they will be ideally placed or what their ideal target is.
 

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There are still 55 points left, which I can use for HK Missiles, or EA's for Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, or Predators. Any suggestions? I can also use the remaining points to fit in an attack bike, but I think that's pretty useless.
with that 55 points you could go EA or attack bike, yea... i would personally, with regards to the desire for more melta, stick in another mm attack bike, make a pair for one choice and then two solo bikes, you will have to pop one shot off paired with another, but for hard targets like land raider or front of a russ, it is worth the back up shot.

i agree that telion is a waste in this list, the only good he does is the free stealth and wound allocation and the occasional bs 6 missle shot. i usually run with him but i have a pair of tech marines (from TFC) in my army that bolster ruins and makes his snipers take cover saves at 2+. you seem like you are planning to play aggressive, so having them bunkered down may not fit into that strategy so leaving him out is, imo, a good move.
 

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I only ever run scouts with Telion, otherwise they just don't work for me. Have you thought about maybe dropping the tac man squads down to 5 and have 4x5man squads of tacticals in razorbacks with weapon upgrades? You wouldn't get the melta shot from special weapons but you would get 4 extra tanks with some decent firepower. Plus an extra scoring unit.
 

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can i just put this out their.... I don't like terminators in a land raider... 450 points and it can be ruined with a first turn multimelta. I don't like them... I have a redeemer, and I play with it... I think I should rephrase this... I dont think land raiders are as competative as other things I could buy with the points.
 

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We fly for the Emperor!
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Discussion Starter #18
It's been really interesting watching this list evolve. Of course, the groupthink always pulls in different ways. A concept you may consider is synergy. This means that units move together and support one another. I feel like synergy is somewhat opposed to flexibility.

Having some LCs and some TH/SS on termies is asynergistic. That element is no longer as good at taking out MCs and armour and yet isn't optimised for horde either. It's not clear where they will be ideally placed or what their ideal target is.
Well, I think I agree with you, that synergy is somewhat opposed to flexibility. With all TH/SS, the terminators are next to useless against horde of infantry, but will increase their overall synergies, but at the same time also lowering their flexibility.

with that 55 points you could go EA or attack bike, yea... i would personally, with regards to the desire for more melta, stick in another mm attack bike, make a pair for one choice and then two solo bikes, you will have to pop one shot off paired with another, but for hard targets like land raider or front of a russ, it is worth the back up shot.

i agree that telion is a waste in this list, the only good he does is the free stealth and wound allocation and the occasional bs 6 missle shot. i usually run with him but i have a pair of tech marines (from TFC) in my army that bolster ruins and makes his snipers take cover saves at 2+. you seem like you are planning to play aggressive, so having them bunkered down may not fit into that strategy so leaving him out is, imo, a good move.
Thanks for the advice mate. For the rest of the point, I take another bike squad with MM, I think it will do me well. I can also put down the PF on the Sergeants and add another bike, what do you think about that?

I only ever run scouts with Telion, otherwise they just don't work for me. Have you thought about maybe dropping the tac man squads down to 5 and have 4x5man squads of tacticals in razorbacks with weapon upgrades? You wouldn't get the melta shot from special weapons but you would get 4 extra tanks with some decent firepower. Plus an extra scoring unit.
Well, in my experience, Telion is a somewhat useful and useless unit. In one of the match I play against SW, my Telion managed to pick off their Banners, thus increasing, by a lot of margin, my chance of victory. But in another game, he is good, but most of the time he is average.

To be honest, I am not a fan of Razorback. Their low AV (11) make them easily destroyed, not to mention extra kill points.

can i just put this out their.... I don't like terminators in a land raider... 450 points and it can be ruined with a first turn multimelta. I don't like them... I have a redeemer, and I play with it... I think I should rephrase this... I dont think land raiders are as competative as other things I could buy with the points.
Thanks for your advice. But regarding my army, the FoC slot is nearly full, so I choose the Terminator and the Land Raider as the last Elite choice in my army. I understand that taking the Rifleman Dreadnought is more competitive, even taking Sternguard is also more competitive, but I think Terminators and Land Raiders are competitive enough in 2k matches. I think that you are right, but I think the Terminators and Land Raiders are not competitive in 1500 pts matches, not in 2000 pts matches.
 

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Devastators aren't specifically bad - look at the popularity of Long-Fangs in SW lists. They're just very over-priced! The base unit is over-priced, and their weapons are over-priced. Hence, it is hard to make an argument for their inclusion in a competitive list.

I shouldn't comment too much on vindicators, since I don't play them. I field dakka-preds and they rarely fail to be useful. How do you intend to play? Your list is very general in its functions. It has some long-range fire, but not a torrent. It has some aggression with the twin PFs and the terminators/redeemer, but it isn't fully committed to that. It has some roaming anti-tank in the form of attack bikes. It has a small amount of deployment shaping in the form of scouts. Key concerns I have are things like

  1. Those Tax feel like they want to be combat squadded into ML camping in my deployment zone, and MG/PF going forth onto objectives. Why not then go with plasbacks? One MG shooting out the hatch isn't that interesting. LC and TL PG is. I would favour flamer/PW here, but then I'd be less happy if I hit AV14 :)
  2. We're set up to take two objectives and contest the rest. Okay, but without land speeders we constrain our ability to contest at the last minute. Our redeemer rock no doubt contests one. What is going to contest the other two or three? Proably not our scouts, they'll melt and must surely be camping in our own deployment zone with their ML. Maybe our ABs? We have only one squad of three. We might as well split those into three squads of one. They're not for CC after all. (They're actually okay at CC, but in this list I can't see you wanting them to get mired into CC.) If we're lucky objectives nearest our back line will be in places we want to camp with those half-Tax ML squads. If not, not so good.
  3. How will we play our vindies? I would highly favour a tactic I've seen recommended on 3++. Reserve them off and use them to keep things off the objectives in our own deployment zone (they have range 30" in the turn they move on, effectively). This keeps them out of harms way until hopefully mid or late game when we need them to act. Could work, but here I would play the odds and want three vindies. That way I am very likely to have one come on late, which is what I'd want. I'd prefer that over the token fire added by my pred to my rather light torrent from the riflemen.
  4. About that pred, what is it shooting? If I see AV14 I send my ABs or terminators after it. I think I have it sitting with my riflemen letting them use it for cover if they want and targeting the same stuff. It may as well stick with it's AC then and not pay for the over-costed TL LC. If I really want my rock, then actually MotF and 5xRiflemen starts to look interesting. No preds, no vindis, just 20xTLS7 out to 48". That's going to alarm people.
So where I feel like your work is cut out for you is judging how you want to play. Consider this

MotF (default CC set up, will ride in redeemer)

10-man Tax, MG, MM, combi-flamer, rhino
10-man Tax, MG, MM, combi-flamer, rhino

5x rifleman dread

7x TH/SS termies, redeemer, MM

2x Tornado, MM, HF
2x Tornado, MM, HF

1990pts
Okay so it probably has too few scoring units. I'd need to tweak it to get in more Tax. The way this would play is I set up a firebase with all those dreads and just hose down anything light to medium I dislike the look of. I camp MLs and... hang on, what did I need more long-range fire for? I swapped the MLs for MM and send two 10-man squads to camp two closest objectives in their melta bunkers. They may never leave my deployment zone: anyone who wants to approach should go right ahead. Anything I really hate, redeemer rock goes for. If I didn't need them earlier, then very late in the game my tornadoes are going to move and contest the two objectives (assuming five) that neither my Tax nor my rock are on. My plan in summary is to let people come to me, and punch out to contest objectives in the mid or late game. I'm not saying this should be your list or your game plan, but rather asking you: what is your game plan? Once that is known, your list follows.
 
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