[Khorothis]

I've been trying to build a decent WoC army but after hours of trying to come up with a balanced list, nothing good managed to come out of it. At least not something I was satisfied with. So I decided I'll run with Beastmen after all, even though I'm not a fan of horde armies in terms of painting and assembling. Otherwise they're always interesting.

I've decided to go with a mass of Gors instead of the Minotaurs and Chariots, mainly because of the models and my lack of faith in so few models/wounds being able to put up the minimum fight I intend to (meaning that even if I'm going to lose my opponent should work pretty hard for it). Of course I could be easily mistaken, but I prefer to follow my gut feeling whenever I'm in doubt.

So heres the list:

Beastlord; Gnarled Hide, Brass Cleaver, Ramhorn Helm, Blackened Plate, Enchanted Shield - 240

Bray-Shaman; lvl2, Chalice of the Dark Rain, Lore of Beasts - 150

Wargor; BSB, Manbane Standard, Shield, Heavy Armour - 153

29xGors; Musician, Foe-Render, AHW - 247 (BSB)

30xGors; FC, AHW - 265 (Bray-Shaman)

30xGors; FC, AHW - 265 (Ambush)

10xUngor Raiders; Musician - 63

10xUngor Raiders; Musician - 63

10xUngor Raiders; Musician - 63 (Ambush)

10xUngor Raiders; Musician - 63 (Ambush)

29xBestigors; FC, Warrior Bane, Razor Standard - 428 (Beastlord)

Total: 2000

The general idea is the following: the front of the army is made up of the three characters' units arranged in response to my opponent's battle line. These units are flanked by a unit of Raiders on each side. The two ambushing Raiders are supposed to target war machines and other soft, ranged targets, while the ambushing Gor unit is meant to strike at somewhat stronger targets, though in my mind they're a kind of panic button that can help out my main force.

I'm curious what do you think.

 

[Tim/Steve]

In theory it should be a decent army.. but my experience would say otherwise. I've only played a hoard beastman army once or twice and seen it being played a couple more times and in all the games it didnt do so well. but then the guy playing it didnt take a BSB... which is the most vital model in your army.

Beastmen's biggest problem is their leadership, which is pretty awful. Anytime they are forced to make panic/fear tests you'll be in toruble if not near the general and/or the BSB. For example, when 5 units ambushed me in the flank/rear I only needed to get into combat with 1 of them with my ogres. I simply marched a giant up to a unit of raiders (they tried to charge and failed terror- god knows why he tried to charge.. I was just going to ignore them and flank his army with the giant) and I just used magic to force panic tests on 3 other units, which all failed and ran off the table.

The other problem is that individually beastmen unts aren't very strong, so against stronger units you might find that you lose no matter which side you hit them on... which is why I suggest that you swap a couple units out for some cheap chariots. Have them floating around in the mid-flank areas and smah them into the sides of any combats that worry you. Use the gor to get rid of enemy steadfast (plus rank and standard bonus) and use the chariots for a flank bonus and a few extra cheap and easy kills to send you over the top and win the fight.


Just as a final thought... I played a few games with a borrowed beastmen army and leant 1 thing.. never underestimate ungor raiders. I had a unit of 2 in combat with ~8 skinks and thought they were toast, but hatred kept them in the fight first phase, and frenzy meant they smashed through the skinks phase 2... one of the funniest upsets Ive ever seen

 

[Khorothis]

I'm also worried about their Leadership, thats why I'm taking a Beastlord and a BSB both, plus the Banner of -1Ld in 6", and keep most of the Gors in range of these two. If thats not helping then I've no idea what will.

Concerning the tougher units, I can only hope that the Bestigors can beat them up with their GWs. Or with Wyssan's Wildform.

 

[blackspine]

Hey Khorothis!

Welcome to the Herd!

Wow, I like your style!
That's a ton of combat resolution and a TON of primal fury.
You're right to anchor around the BSB. Without it's re-roll or all the leadership it provides, I would have gone down like a sorority girl in Vegas. It would have been ugly. Making those primal fury tests is what gives the beastmen core their only solid advantage.

some thoughts on my end.
without Kazrak, the large (30) unit of Gors is too big to gamble with in ambush. Why not have this split up into two units or one larger (20) and one smaller (10) so you don't get broken by ONE bad roll. That way you can also have smaller units as support on the battlefield, for more maneuverable flanks.

Lacking a fast moving punch can hurt. Beastmen are fairly fast, but having chariots to provide a good flanking attack and impact hits can really help. They're cheap and can really make some one think twice about trying to flank you.

Bestigors are amazing. I really dig them. They are ASL and only have heavy armor, so if you're dealing with them taking on High In & heavy hitting armie (WoC) you may need something to help them flank for that combat. Our special is not as effective as some armies core, however, they will ravage any and all weaker units. What's that Black orcs? Thought you could out do primal fury? nope.

Ungor raiders. Amazing units, they can surprise you. I've learned not to count on their shooting for a damn. If they get some shots off, fine. If not, charge right in. They make great screeners. You might need one more small unit to screen your bestigors from gunfire. Just a thought.


*edit: I've been using the 'banner of the true beast' for it's additional STR. I find that since I'm relying on my blocks of Gors, they need a good boost. With enough ranks, I doubt I'll be losing Combat. With Wyssans AND this banner, it's str 5 T 5. that is a vicious nasty unit. If you cast it on the Bestigors, they will cut through any and all oppositon (str 7, t 5, AS 5+). It's up to you, but with the banner, it frees up Wyssans for other units, so there's 2 strong units. Heck, the ungors are magnificent with these.
Good luck man!

 

[Khorothis]

Hey Khorothis!
Yo.
Welcome to the Herd!

Wow, I like your style! Its a ton of Gors, whats not to like?
That's a ton of combat resolution and a TON of primal fury.
You're right to anchor around the BSB. Without it's re-roll or all the leadership it provides, I would have gone down like a sorority girl in Vegas. It would have been ugly. Making those primal fury tests is what gives the beastmen core their only solid advantage.

some thoughts on my end.
without Kazrak, the large (30) unit of Gors is too big to gamble with in ambush. Why not have this split up into two units or one larger (20) and one smaller (10) so you don't get broken by ONE bad roll. That way you can also have smaller units as support on the battlefield, for more maneuverable flanks.
Good thinking but I found that unless theres at least 30 of them Gors can't really do much or take any kind of real damage. 30-gor units are essentially 12 Gors (the 6x2 who do the real job) with 18 extra wounds who might give a few rank bonuses too.

Lacking a fast moving punch can hurt. Beastmen are fairly fast, but having chariots to provide a good flanking attack and impact hits can really help. They're cheap and can really make some one think twice about trying to flank you.
I was thinking about using Chariots, but I've decided to gamble on my ambushing units to flank the flankers. This looks like a typical "you'll know if you try" situation, so only testing will tell if I was wrong or not. Also, I cannot add Chariots without breaking the concept of the army.

Bestigors are amazing. I really dig them. They are ASL and only have heavy armor, so if you're dealing with them taking on High In & heavy hitting armie (WoC) you may need something to help them flank for that combat. Our special is not as effective as some armies core, however, they will ravage any and all weaker units. What's that Black orcs? Thought you could out do primal fury? nope.
Thats why I'm giving them the Banner of -1AS, so that they can mop up opposition much faster, since they're the only unit that can deal with tougher units. I'm also relying on the Beastlord to even the scale against said higher I killing machines with his rediculous amount of attacks and I6.

Ungor raiders. Amazing units, they can surprise you. I've learned not to count on their shooting for a damn. If they get some shots off, fine. If not, charge right in. They make great screeners. You might need one more small unit to screen your bestigors from gunfire. Just a thought.
I haven't seen much use of screening so far, since A, theres no saving you from templates and cannonballs B, shooters can't shoot that far without me being able to charge them in the following turn, in which I activate the Chalice C, more often than not said shooters will be on higher ground. Otherwise I agree with you.

*edit: I've been using the 'banner of the true beast' for it's additional STR. I find that since I'm relying on my blocks of Gors, they need a good boost. With enough ranks, I doubt I'll be losing Combat. With Wyssans AND this banner, it's str 5 T 5. that is a vicious nasty unit. If you cast it on the Bestigors, they will cut through any and all oppositon (str 7, t 5, AS 5+). It's up to you, but with the banner, it frees up Wyssans for other units, so there's 2 strong units. Heck, the ungors are magnificent with these.
I've seriously considered that +1S, but firstly, its very-very expensive, maybe a bit too much for what it does (though in a big unit of Minotaurs it can be pretty mean). Secondly, since I'm definately not sending my Gors against heavy infantry (thinking of Chaos Warriors now), they're more likely to slam into another big block, which could easily end up being Steadfast, which negates the wounds part of the combat resolution. To compensate, I gave them the -1Ld in 6" Banner so that they can send units home crying a bit faster, which is the big deal about this army: grind down your opponent before he does the same with you.+

Good luck man!

Thanks for the info, a lot of things to keep in mind and consider in the future.

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[blackspine]

All are good points.
It ultimatley comes down to play style.
I will tell you this. (consider it a sneak preview to my next battle reportS)

in dwarves V. game, Even Kazrak couldn't help my ambushers much. I was lucky to have a back up....that and Kazrak's "scourge" is just absurd. Add it with Wyssans and the +1str banner, good by dwarves.

in second game, the banner, and Wyssans enabled my gors to obliterate a 20+ unit of black orcs on the charge. One round, (with the lord's attacks) all heavily armored black orcs, wiped out.

Consider this too.
Bestigors can carry their own banner up to a certain points. (50 or 35, i forget)
BSB is unlimited.
Bestigors could carry their own banner (-1 leadership) and that could even overlap with the BSB's. (not sure if they do)

I've always wanted to experiment with the totem of rust. A unit of gors could realllllly do some harm to Chaos Warriors. Hit them hard, with Wyssans, maybe even curse of anhrir on them, no armor.

I'd love to see that work....and a WoC general weep.


oh yes. Are you running this as a 'horde'? Horde's seem iffy for us Beastmen.

 

[Khorothis]

I gave a closer reading to Kazrak yesterday and Scourge can really be absurd. And the situation you described... holy cow. And the Gors wiping Black Orcs... at first I thought you meant Bestigors, but then I re-read the sentence a couple times and even after the fifth time it still said "gors". I see that at some point I'll have to try that Banner of Beast Norris. :biggrin:

Well you can take one banner only once, so while this overlapping business looks good its not legal, sadly. Or perhaps fortunately. However, if two Beastmen BSBs got together that would be... well... uncomfortable for our opponents.

I've been looking at Totem of Rust too but from the looks of it its best to give it to a big block of Ungors with Spears, preferably between 40 and 50, mainly because the same amount of Gors would be rather expensive and you need to make the most out of the banner. The second unit that comes to mind are the Minotaurs, they have no real armour whatsoever and paired up with the Armour Piercing Banner thats -2 AS, and then the actual Strength of the unit, who should have GWs, so they're actually ignoring armour. Then again, the Armour Piercing Banner might be superfluous, since even then the best possible armour save is a 6+ which isn't going to help that 5-10 man heavy cavalry unit much.

Since we don't have much in the way of armour saves, except for our Beastlords, horde looks like one of the ways to go. I'm also considering a 5-man strong Minotaur unit with the Brass Bull, so that whatever is left of the unit after he chopped them up his Minotaur brothers will mop up the rest with their GWs. But thats probably only going to happen in 2500 points, most likely an addition to this list, maybe with some Chariots, since there won't be any more points for another unit of Gors. I think/hope that by next year I'll have enough experience to form a more reliable opinion on this.

 

[blackspine]

I gave a closer reading to Kazrak yesterday and Scourge can really be absurd. And the situation you described... holy cow. And the Gors wiping Black Orcs... at first I thought you meant Bestigors, but then I re-read the sentence a couple times and even after the fifth time it still said "gors". I see that at some point I'll have to try that Banner of Beast Norris. :biggrin:

Yes, Kazrak hitting 9 dwarves at once, while beefed up +2 str was just absurd. I believe that was 7 str. It ripped their front lines limb from limb. Kazrak is amazing vs magical weapon chars (see: WoC) and vs anything with lots of front models....particularly Hordes.

Yep. I meant Gors. The Core choice. It was a glorious sight. Primal fury and their str meant insane amount of hits happening. The O&G general was in a state of disbelief.
Banner of Chuck Gorrus.

Well you can take one banner only once, so while this overlapping business looks good its not legal, sadly. Or perhaps fortunately. However, if two Beastmen BSBs got together that would be... well... uncomfortable for our opponents.

I don't mean TWO BSBs, but the Bestigors are ALLOWED a magical banner of their own. So that is something to keep in mind. The Armor piercing one is redundant, but the Terror one from the Core book could be amazing. Weapon skill 1 vs the Bestigors' Primal fury? yes please.

I've been looking at Totem of Rust too but from the looks of it its best to give it to a big block of Ungors with Spears, preferably between 40 and 50, mainly because the same amount of Gors would be rather expensive and you need to make the most out of the banner. The second unit that comes to mind are the Minotaurs, they have no real armour whatsoever and paired up with the Armour Piercing Banner thats -2 AS, and then the actual Strength of the unit, who should have GWs, so they're actually ignoring armour. Then again, the Armour Piercing Banner might be superfluous, since even then the best possible armour save is a 6+ which isn't going to help that 5-10 man heavy cavalry unit much.

I like the ungor spearmen, but honestly, their WS is not good enough, even with Primal fury to make the main block. Having several Cheap amazing blocks? Yes. They could really anchor your army. But as the main guys? I'm not too sure about that.
Like you, I'm still iffy about minotaurs. I love the fluff of them with GWs, but to see them in action with them is sad. They have little armor, ASL and are very vulnerable. The ASL lets the enemy get one last crack at them before they swing...which can nock off wounds from grievously injured Minos, depriving you of their attacks. I would try Shield & HW, for parry save or AHW for more attacks. 5 str is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they keep getting more and more every round (assuming they win)

Since we don't have much in the way of armour saves, except for our Beastlords, horde looks like one of the ways to go. I'm also considering a 5-man strong Minotaur unit with the Brass Bull, so that whatever is left of the unit after he chopped them up his Minotaur brothers will mop up the rest with their GWs. But thats probably only going to happen in 2500 points, most likely an addition to this list, maybe with some Chariots, since there won't be any more points for another unit of Gors. I think/hope that by next year I'll have enough experience to form a more reliable opinion on this.

A horde works well for us, but again, is a huge footprint. Getting ranks in that is just too painful / expensive, unless it's ungors.

I need to PM you with my WoC/ Bretonnian killer idea.

 

[Vaz]

WS1 means that you hit on 3's. As Bestigors have above average WS in any case, it doesn't make a major difference unless you're facing Elven Elites, in which case they'll most likely be ItP or have a Ld10 Prince and a BSB nearby.

Terror's shit unless you can enforce it (i.e, for Warriors of Chaos, Doom Totem BSB, Dragon with Diabolic Splendour and Pandaemonium - gives a total of -2 to Terror tests on their own Leadership, but even then it's not that good).

I'd appreciate it if you posted that WoC killer list publicly please.



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[Tim/Steve]

Terror is pretty useless, but every once in a while it'll do something fun. I wouldnt deliberately take it unless you are fighting a lot of terror causers and want to be ItP to them without the ItP downside.

Now fear is well worth having, and having terror means you cause fear too... but its more worth having the lower your WS is (well, best for WS3 really) and is almost pointless if you are WS9-10. For my ogres fear is utterly the best thing in the world, but for bestigor it isnt too bad. I think there are better options out there for them rather then the terror banner, but causing and ignoring fear is no small ability so its still a decent option.

 

[Beastie-Gor]

I could be wrong but I think that you have 115 points of gifts and items on your General. (I dont' have my book but I think that Blacken Plate is 50pts..?) To correct your situation, I would move the Gnarled Hide over to the BSB.

EDIT: Also are Beastlords allowed multiple magic armour items? You have Ramhorn Helm, Blackened Plate and Enchanted Shield and I am pretty sure you can only go with one.

 

[Beastie-Gor]

Not much a Beast player can do about that leadership problem. Add standard of discipline to the Bestiegors and that is about it.

 

[Thebeastmaster]

@ Bestie-Gor, he is allowed to have a magical helm, shield, and armour, as long as he doesn't have 2 of the same types, ie. 2 helms, 2 armors, or 2 shields. And I really like the horde list, I'm not a huge fan of gors because of their even lower leadership and relatively low toughness. Speaking of awful leadership tests, when I was first starting my beastmen I used horde gors, against a tomb kings list... With a casket o souls... While I had no BSB... Because his CoS was on a hill I could almost always see it and lost the game before I had gone across the board entirely....single-handedly my most crushing defeat.
Moral: keep high leadership around to keep your gors in check.