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Discussion Starter #1
Army Name: Warriors of Chaos

Special Notes
- This is my first attempt at an army list so any criticism is more than welcome. I do feel that my army is light on characters and would expect the next additions to my force to include a second sorc and an exalted hero in any battle over 2000 points. That said, I feel if I dropped the warriors at this point level I would be pretty light on troops - but then I haven't played my first game yet.

LORDS

Lord: Sorceror Lord - 370
- MoT
- Book of Secrets
- Infernal Puppet
- Bronze Armor of Zhraak
- Upgrade to Level 4

HEROES

None

CORE

Core 1: Chaos Warriors (15): 305
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Full Command

Core 2: Chaos Warriors (15): 305
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Full Command

Core 3: Chaos Marauders 22: 240
- Shield
- Flail
- MoT
- Standard Bearer

Core 4: Chaos Marauders 22: 240
- Shield
- Flail
- MoT
- Standard Bearer

Core 5: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None

Core 6: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None

Core 7: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None

SPECIAL

Special 1: Chosen 20 : 540
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Glaive of Putrefaction
- Razor Standard

RARE

Rare 1: Chaos Warshrine : 150
- MoT

Army Total: 2000

My general intent is to use the Chosen and Warriors as main thrusts under almost any plan. Against gunlines I hope to use the expendable hounds and, if need be, the Marauders as cover while I get my warriors into range. Against assault oriented armies I will use the hounds fast cavalry rule to set them up where they can be charged but at angles that require that when an enemy 'shuts the door' he exposes a flank to one of my beefier units. When at all possible I'll get my warshrine and Chosen to assault an enemy's strong point.

Thoughts?

Thanks again to those who helped me choose an army, especially Vaz, Sethis, and cursedUNTILLDEATH.
 

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I would remove MoT on pretty much every unit you have except for your lord and your shrine. Especially since your warriors have halberds and your marauders have flails. They have to use those weapons so they cant benefit from the parry save which is what makes MoT worth taking as it stacks with parry.

Personally I would drop one of your units of marauders and get a good BSB with the points. BSBs are amazing and help you out so much. Remove the hounds and find the points to give your units either MoK or MoN. Either that or you can remove halberds from a unit and just let them have hand weapons and shields so they have a 3+ normal save and a 5+ ward.

Also I think your points are off by like a couple hundred so you may want to fix that.
 

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First choice IMHO, should be Warriors, MoN, Banner of Rage, Halberds, Shields. Gives 3+ Range Defence and -1 to hit.

Follow up with a HW/Shield MoT Warriors and Blasted Standard, and a small thin line of Marauders to stop flanking Cavalry.

Chosen with Mark of Khorne, Halberds, Terrifying Mask of EEE!, and Razor Banner are my next choice. Give them shields as well, for a potential 2+ Range defence.

Twin MoT Warshrines rounds off that unit nicely.

BSB with Banner of Swiftness in that Chosen unit will literally have an opponent shitting themselves.

M5, with 24 S5 AP Attacks (potentially 30 S6 Attacks) will have them skipping along, beating down on units that your opponent thought was safe.

However, with the Warriors having taken the anti-range options, you're going to be taking a bucket of hits on your Chosen, if your opponents intelligent. There's no reason why not to Max this selection.

As for Sorceror Lords, eh, they're powerful, but personally, I don't see the point in running them without MoT when you get +7 to cast rather than +4. MoN has lost it's lustre a bit now. Spells like the Lore of Life which grants a potential +4 toughness make them a bit crap. However, MoT, Book of Ashur, and nearby Skull of Katam can pretty much guarantee all it's casts, except for opposing dispels.



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Lord: Sorceror Lord - 370
- MoT
- Book of Secrets
- Infernal Puppet
- Bronze Armor of Zhraak
- Upgrade to Level 4
Unfortunately the Book of Secrets is now pretty terrible (due entirely to the FAQ - check the GW website for it). I was thinking myself that giving it to a Level 4 to get the signature spell of Death or Shadows was pretty cool, as well as an extra power dice. Apparantly that is "too good" so it got hit with the nerf bat.

I'm not sure the Armour is really needed either - most of the time they're only going to get 2-4 normal men attacking the Sorc, which won't be enough to kill him unless you're very unlucky.

Consider instead giving him caster items. Blood of Tzeentch is my current favourite, letting you avoid almost all miscasts by rerolling 6s, and also lets you reroll any 2-3s if you fail to cast a spell by a smidgen. Conjoined Homunculus is also good, as is the bog standard Power Familiar.

Core 1: Chaos Warriors (15): 305
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Full Command

Core 2: Chaos Warriors (15): 305
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Full Command
Mark of Tzeentch is generally best when combined with Hand Weapons and Shields, to get a 5+ Ward in combat. I'm not sure that it's worth it if you don't go for that setup. My basic rules of thumb for Warriors are:

Halberds: Khorne and Nurgle
Additional Hand Weapons: If you don't expect to have ranks
HW + Shields: Tzeentch
Halberds + Shields: Great setup if you have the spare points. Khorne or Nurgle again
Great Weapons: Don't

Also bear in mind that you get more bang for your buck if you have bigger units. 10 Warriors with a Mark of Khorne pay 3 points per model. A unit of 30 pays 1 point per model. Same goes for the Command Group. My unit of 30 Frenzied Nurgle Warriors hasn't let me down yet!

Core 3: Chaos Marauders 22: 240
- Shield
- Flail
- MoT
- Standard Bearer

Core 4: Chaos Marauders 22: 240
- Shield
- Flail
- MoT
- Standard Bearer
Again, not sure about the Mark of Tzeentch. No Hand Weapon/Shield bonus to improve - Flails work best with Khorne because it allows you to maximise carnage on that all-important first round of combat when you have S5.

I don't like Marauders myself, I think we run just fine with pure Warriors, but it's entirely up to you!

Core 5: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None

Core 6: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None

Core 7: Chaos Warhounds 5 : 90
- None
5 hounds is 30 points, not 90. Not sure how you got that number, unless they all have poison. I think 3 units of 5 is a waste of points - I'd run 1 unit of 10 and leave it at that. In the FAQ they are also no longer Fast Cavalry, they are War Beasts, and therefore do not get the Vanguard move or free reforms, making them even worse.

SPECIAL

Special 1: Chosen 20 : 540
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoT
- Glaive of Putrefaction
- Razor Standard
Nice unit, but again the MoT is a bit suboptimal with the way they are kitted out. I'd go Mark of Nurgle with the Banner of Rage with this unit. Also I'd give the Champion the magic item Favour of the Gods, allowing the unit to adjust their roll before the game begins, and also consider giving him the terror-causing item from the Rulebook, which will let you reroll results of 2, 7, 10 and 11 in order to get something really good.

RARE

Rare 1: Chaos Warshrine : 150
- MoT
Yep, best Mark available there. T6 and 3+ Ward is very silly. Just don't make the mistake of charging it into a unit with ranks - you don't get thunderstomp so you attack like 2 very tough Chaos Warriors. You'll rarely kill enough to avoid losing the combat due to banners, ranks etc. I like to use it as a roadblock to someone's elite cavalry or Lord choice on big gribbly mount. Failing that, it provides cover and support the Chosen nicely.

Hope some of that helped! :)
 

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...I'd give the Champion the magic item Favour of the Gods, allowing the unit to adjust their roll before the game begins, and also consider giving him the terror-causing item from the Rulebook, which will let you reroll results of 2, 7, 10 and 11 in order to get something really good.
Couple of things that I query:

Chosen Champions get to have one item with a value up to X not items up to X, so you get Favour, or the item form the BRB (unless that was what you meant).

The FAQ indicates that if you get Stupidity from the Eye and from another source (e.g. Helm of Many Eyes) you do not re-roll, so not sure about all of the possible re-rolls, assuming the same rule applies to Terror and Fear.
 

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Couple of things that I query:
The FAQ indicates that if you get Stupidity from the Eye and from another source (e.g. Helm of Many Eyes) you do not re-roll, so not sure about all of the possible re-rolls, assuming the same rule applies to Terror and Fear.
that applies to the characters that roll - the rules for chosen allow them to re-roll stupidity and eye is closed.

EDIT: of course, because of the wording of the faq - i'm answering as RAI, not RAW
 

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that applies to the characters that roll - the rules for chosen allow them to re-roll stupidity and eye is closed.

EDIT: of course, because of the wording of the faq - i'm answering as RAI, not RAW
I am not querying 2 or 7 on the initial roll; it was whether they re-roll 100 & 11.
 

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You cannot take both in any case, because the helmet is 25pts, not to mention both are enchanted items.

It states for the Eye of Chaos that if the unit already causes Terror, then reroll the result.

Question is, the Champion causing Terror does not grant the unit the ability to cause Fear or Terror, meaning that you cannot reroll Terror Causing. Currently, we play it what we think RAW is, in that while the champion is alive, the unit causes Terror. As such, I've been abusing the Terror Causing with the BSB with Doom Totem. Good times, if I'm honest.



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My reading of it was that if any model in the Chosen unit already has one of the abilities, you reroll if you get that result, because you cannot roll the same gift twice, and the entries on the Eye of the Gods table specifically instruct you to reroll in the case of Fear and Terror.

If, for example, you had a Champion in the unit who caused Terror then if you rolled 10 or 11 you would reroll, because one of the models who benefits from the roll already has the ability.

The same would happen if a Terror-causing Lord joined them and you blessed them with a Warshrine, the Lord causes Terror already, but he is affected by the blessing from the shrine as well as the unit, so you must reroll. Likewise if the unit rolled a result from the Shrine that the Lord already had from killing an enemy character, you would be forced to reroll.

I don't have a copy of the rulebook so I didn't know how much the mask cost - and I also misread the Magic Item entitlement of the champion, my bad!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Dave, thanks for bringing that up, I was wondering about that as I read the army entry for Chosen.

Wiccus/Sethis, the error on points for the hounds was a moment of stupidity on my part. On my excel sheet that I was using I had it listed as one unit of 15 hounds (90 points) but knew I meant to field them in smaller units. When I broke them up I didn't adjust the cost. Based off what I'm reading in the FAQ and from Sethis, I will probably drop them alltogether.

I understand the consensus on changing the Marks and will most like change the Chosen to Khorne and the warriors to Nurgle as well as make some other adjustments. I also understand the point about bang for the buck on unit sizes. My question is, what do you guys use for screening/redirecting forces? I could easily pick up the BSB if I dropped marauders and increase the unit size on the warriors and Chosen. If I did though, isn't that going to leave my three headed monster pretty open to flanking from enemy? If so, just how bad is that - my gut would say horrible?

Sure the shrine could screen some, but since it doesn't hit that hard but is too important to throw away, any unit that came to assisst would most likely still be flanked and back in the original predicament.

I think the input I'm getting is great and plan to redraft the army list based off most of the suggestions (Book of Secrets is now a stupid, stupid choice) but wanted to get your input of the actual tactics of the list before I did so.

Also, I'm interested to hear wether you think the sorc should join a unit or go solo.
 

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Given the new rules for war machines, I would either put him in a unit or at least within a few inches of one so that he gets "Look out Sir!" because otherwise he'll get cannon-sniped or hit by a stone thrower on turn 1.

With regards to unit tactics, my 2k list consists of 2 main warrior units flanked by a Shrine and a Shaggoth (one to each side). They either actively try to engage flanking units such as light cavalry or flyers, or wait for an infantry unit to get a flank charge against the Warriors before flanking them in turn.

Even if you do get flanked, a unit of Frenzied Warriors with Halberds throws out 12 WS5 S5 I5 attacks to the side if it's 4 deep - which ought to be enough to seriously damage anything that charged them, while your front ranks are making a mess of the original target. My unit of 30 Nurgle Warriors with Halberds has been charged by 40 Empire Swordsmen and 20 Halberdiers in the flank, and won the combat by 10 points before, so don't be too scared of flanking attacks (unless it's a monster of some kind).

It is now also very viable to charge with a wide frontage (I routinely set up my 30 man unit on a Horde basis - 10 wide and 3 deep) to maximise contact with your target enemy, then reform when you win the combat (in my case 5 wide and 6 deep) in order to maximise attacks against a flanking unit. Provided of course that your target unit didn't break and run.
 

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A unit of warriors can most often take flank charges. They are absolute killing machines and unless they are flanked by a ridiculously burly unit (which you should be aiming at in the first place) you should do okay. The flanking and re directing units are nice and in some armies very important but warriors do fine without them. Plus, a BSB is invaluable in 8th. The BSB gives you a reroll on pretty much every ld test out there. I wouldn't leave home without one even if hes just carrying a regular non magical BSB.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Ok, let's try this again. I had to drop a unit of the warriors to keep the one unit of warriors and the unit of chosen large. I could drop them down but from what I've read from you guys I think this is the better option.

I do feel the list has gotten lean, real lean. I played with putting in a dragon ogre shaggoth or even a unit of ogres in place of one of the warshrines, but the only way I could manage that was to drop the sorc to a hero or drop him altogether. I could also trade the chosen unit for a second unit of warriors to free up points for that. As always, any input is appreciated.

Oh also, rules check. I can't find anything saying the BSB and a units SB can't be in the same unit. Is there a problem if they are?

That and I only have 1 core choice though it does meet the points requirement. That is ok now, right?

Army Name: Warriors of Chaos

LORDS

Lord: Sorceror Lord : 345
- MoT
- Blood of T
- Conjoined Homonculus
- Upgrade to level 4

HEROES

Hero 1: Exalted Hero : 174
- BSB
- Banner of Swiftness
- MoK
- Halberd
- Shield


CORE

Core 1: Chaos Warriors x 25 : 520
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoN
- Full Command
- Banner of Rage


SPECIAL

Special 1: Chosen x 25 : 650
- Shield
- Halberd
- MoK
- Terrifying Mask
- Razor Standard
- Full Command

RARE

Rare 1: Chaos Warshrine : 150
- MoT

Rare 2: Chaos Warshrine : 150
- MoT



Army Total: 1989
 

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Your core unit reaches the requirement - it's 25%, so greater than 500 or equal to is a goody.

I'm not a fan of Conjoined Hom. You're only Ld8 - if you keep him near to the BSB, that's not too bad. However, it's still risking stupidity - and I don't like having Leadership 8 to fall back on. However, if you're keen on the TSL with Conj Hom, then I'd drop the Blood of Tzeentch, and take Infernal Puppet. Pandaemonium + Puppet plays havoc with many players risking spells on 2 dice rather than 3.

Otherwise, I quite like the list. It's uncompromising, obviously deadly, and a threat to even the nastiest opponent.

The BSB stacks with the SB - so units with both in the fighting at at +2 overall before they've even started.



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