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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sorcerer 185
- Tzeentch, Bolt of change, doombolt, personal Icon, Terminator armor

x5 terminators 285
- tzeentch x5 fists Reaper

x5 terminators 285
- tzeentch x5 fists reaper

x5 CSM 120
- rhino, melta
x5 CSM 120
- rhino, melta

x2 obliterators 150
x2 obliterators 150

Fate Weaver 333

Herald of Tzeentch 110
- Chariot, bolt, master, legion
Herald of Tzeentch 110
- Chariot, bolt, master, legion

x5 plauge bearers 75
x5 plauge bearers 75

x3 Screamers 48
x3 Screamers 48


I was thinking that screamers probably aren't so bad now that they hit on a 3+ all the time, lol.

First wave is 1 screamer, heralds,, and fateweaver.

Fateweaver hugs the terminators and obliterators so that we can have rerollable 2+ armor.

I realize that this list relies massively on fateweaver and that's a big weakness. If they can't bring him down though, this list could be really lulzy.

At 2000 points, this list could be either daemons or chaos space marines. though I guess the name really means nothing.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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The list could be alot better to be honest:

1. What is the two 5 man CSM squads in Rhino's? You would be much better served taking 9 Thousand sons in a Rhino, and have your Sorcerer marked so that the Horrors and other daemons can reliably deepstrike off them.

2. Your HQ choice for Marine is bad, you would be better served with a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, and then attach one of the Heralds of Tzeentch to the 5 Terminators as he can still fire independantly of them thanks to We Are Legion.

3. Why the Plaguebearers? Ruins the theme, and doesn't add anything to your list in terms of synergy. Pink Horrors plus one with Changeling would be better, extra Bolts are always handy.

4. 3 Screamers isn't enough, one squad of 6 acting likea heat seeker against Land Raiders or other High Armoured vehicles. You want to hit it once and kill it, no balls ups, no mistakes, and 3 isn't enough for that.

5. Overall, for 2000pts this list isn't sitting well with me, even for fun. I think you can do alot better with those kind of points, even if sticking to a Tzeentch theme, and even if its only for 'fun' games.



Hope those suggestions help.

Just to be clear, the list needs some changing, its not terrible or anything, but I just think with a bit more thought it could be alot better.
 

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I agree with D-A-C on this. The list lacks a ton. I see where it's coming from but I think you need to go back to the codex's and try to find some better synergy for the units you choose for a allied force based around Fateweaver.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
The list could be alot better to be honest:

1. What is the two 5 man CSM squads in Rhino's? You would be much better served taking 9 Thousand sons in a Rhino, and have your Sorcerer marked so that the Horrors and other daemons can reliably deepstrike off them.

2. Your HQ choice for Marine is bad, you would be better served with a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, and then attach one of the Heralds of Tzeentch to the 5 Terminators as he can still fire independantly of them thanks to We Are Legion.

3. Why the Plaguebearers? Ruins the theme, and doesn't add anything to your list in terms of synergy. Pink Horrors plus one with Changeling would be better, extra Bolts are always handy.

4. 3 Screamers isn't enough, one squad of 6 acting likea heat seeker against Land Raiders or other High Armoured vehicles. You want to hit it once and kill it, no balls ups, no mistakes, and 3 isn't enough for that.

5. Overall, for 2000pts this list isn't sitting well with me, even for fun. I think you can do alot better with those kind of points, even if sticking to a Tzeentch theme, and even if its only for 'fun' games.



Hope those suggestions help.

Just to be clear, the list needs some changing, its not terrible or anything, but I just think with a bit more thought it could be alot better.
I'm not against suggestions to improve the list by any means, but I think all your suggestions are not the best. I don't think you need 6 melta bombs to kill a vehicle, it's over kill. If it doesn't kill the vehicle with just 3 then they sorta lucked out. 3 melta bombs will be very likely to kill a unit. not a sure thing but why double the points of a unit to make it slightly more likely to wreck a landraider? At a mere 48 points, they will be good to use even against a razorback. if I double that then killing a razorback with them will suck.

Plague bearers don't add anything to the list? You don't think that having backfield objective holders is good? I don't really think that pink horrors are the best, especially for the price. Plague bearers can go to ground on a point and be very difficult to shift.

As for using a herald without the chariot, I have to disagree. I think they are best with chariots.

Suggesting to replace 5 men with a melta with NINE 1k sons is a strange suggestion. They do not serve the same function and you are more than tripling the point cost of the unit there. I'll have to give up a whole lot of units to do this.

Basically, the point of the list is to find the maximum amount of abuse that you can squeeze out of the fateweaver. That's the only theme that is in there really.

I'd love to hear your rebuttal if you disagree. I don't think this list is gonna dominate the tournament scene but it's funny to hear you say that it wouldn't even be fun to play with, heh.

The sorcerer is for playing with the new powers. I don't actually intend to use doombolt and bolt of change. Also, you suggested that I bring a personal icon for daemon summoning (which I already did) and then suggested that I drop the sorcerer to get a daemon prince so I would lose the protection from scatter.


One thing I'm thinking for sure now though is that you don't really need to have all fists when you can have power axes and save 10 points.
 

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Just so you know, personal Icons only work on Obliterators and terminator units, it wont work on your Daemon units. Read the updated FAQ and the item in the codex. If you want an icon that works on all deepstrikes you'll still have to pay the points for a Daemons icon and wait for it to come in.

I'm tweaking ideas on a similar allied force myself, but from my experiance with daemons i'd say this list is ify at best. Oblits, termies with reapers and fateweaver do seem like an amazing combo though and I'm very excited about the possiblities and think you are heading in the right direction. If you feel confident the list will work well and be fun give a few games to try it out, with the new rules we all could be surprised.

I would suggest taking a Daemon Prince HQ from CSM just because of all the goodies you get for the price, and taking Lash from CSM is another fun idea to mix in with daemons.
 

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Basically, the point of the list is to find the maximum amount of abuse that you can squeeze out of the fateweaver. That's the only theme that is in there really.
Well some of my suggestions were based on attempting to create a unified theme for the list in terms of Mono-Tzeentch, obviously I misunderstood your intentions.

For what its worth though, I hope you just usied a poor choice of words, because when you say you want to create a list based on finding 'the maximum amount of abuse', you sound like a d*ck to me.

Lets go over your arguments against my advice, and then look at your list a little closer:

I don't think you need 6 melta bombs to kill a vehicle, it's over kill. If it doesn't kill the vehicle with just 3 then they sorta lucked out. 3 melta bombs will be very likely to kill a unit. not a sure thing but why double the points of a unit to make it slightly more likely to wreck a landraider? At a mere 48 points, they will be good to use even against a razorback. if I double that then killing a razorback with them will suck.
You obviously play 40k in 'magic land' when you come out with statements like this. With 2000pts of stuff on the table, you think the enemy is going to let you zoom up to him and attack the vehicles?

Leaving that aside, do opponents vehicles not move, do you roll perfect everytime? Realisticly in 5th edition you needed 6-9 Screamers to take out a vehicle with any degree of reliability, and you didn't take screamers to bust Rhino's you took them to attempt to take out vehicles whose rear armour wasn't 10, otherwise, why not just take something like Seekers of Slaanesh or Fleshounds of Khorne as they both excel at opening Rhino's.

Paying 48pts to have about a 20% chance of opening a 35pt vehicle isn't a good tactic. Combining two squads of three to get yourself a 50% chance of nabbing an expensive tank is a big imrpovement.


Plague bearers don't add anything to the list? You don't think that having backfield objective holders is good? I don't really think that pink horrors are the best, especially for the price. Plague bearers can go to ground on a point and be very difficult to shift.
Again, based on your list, I don't think they do. I was of course thinking Pink Horrors would be better thematically, but you don't give a sh*t about that so lets look at PB's in your list.

They camp objectives. Again, we are in 'magic land' territory, because do you really think at the 2000pts level an enemy cannot take out 5 PB's?

Your army is huddled up around Fateweaver firing away, and your magic PB's are off on their own sitting on an objective for the entire game. Okay, good luck to you.

Horrors are really fragile, but get a 4++ save, can get Bolt at a reasonably price, and can torrent fire really well. Plus if they get assaulted they can snap fire in 6th.

Like I said, it primarily was a thematic suggestion, but realistically at this level your going to need 7 plaguebearers to camp that objective reliably.

And also, my dislike of peoples use of PB's comes from experience because I've been there myself, you go into a game thinking this unit will just camp an objective and keep it for you, then they get smashed because they didn't sync up with what the rest of your army is off doing.


As for using a herald without the chariot, I have to disagree. I think they are best with chariots.
Your right and I understand this. My suggestion came from a misunderstanding I had about 6th edition rules about Allies and Daemonic Strike.

Suggesting to replace 5 men with a melta with NINE 1k sons is a strange suggestion. They do not serve the same function and you are more than tripling the point cost of the unit there. I'll have to give up a whole lot of units to do this.
This, again, was a thematic change, and was designed to allow them to be a beacon for your Daemons to Land on.

Also, 6th has some tasty rules for psykers, the sorcerer has a Force Weapon, and their AP3 shooting is alot better and 4++ cover is heavily reduced giving them an advantage when having to disemabark out in the open, all of which meant Thousand sons got a buff.

So I thought they would compliment your army thematically, and be useful either offensive and/or defensively and cost only a bit more that your two 5 man squads in rhinos which suck because...

Two teams of 5 CSM with a melta are going to do what exactly? If your min maxing why not go 5 Plague Marines, two melta Rhino, or something. Cause I just don't see what use that unit is. It can't assault well, it can't shoot well, and it has a meltagun? Ok.

The sorcerer is for playing with the new powers. I don't actually intend to use doombolt and bolt of change. Also, you suggested that I bring a personal icon for daemon summoning (which I already did) and then suggested that I drop the sorcerer to get a daemon prince so I would lose the protection from scatter.
The Thousand sons were supposed to cover some of this. They have an aspiring sorcerer, and they were wupposed to be your beacon for deepstriking daemons.

A Daemon Prince is still really good for its cost (although not as good as it once was) and I just thought he could take advantage of fateweavers bubble, as well as be generally more usefl than an expensive sorcerer stuck in a Termi squad.


I'd love to hear your rebuttal if you disagree. I don't think this list is gonna dominate the tournament scene but it's funny to hear you say that it wouldn't even be fun to play with, heh.
Ok, I've responded.

I can't tell you how to have fun, but what I'm saying to you as someone who has used both the CSM and Daemon armies is that for 2000pts, this army appears off in some way.

Maybe my suggestions don't improve it, but for the amount of points spent this army doesn't seem right at all. I just think for that amount of points you could do alot more.


One thing I'm thinking for sure now though is that you don't really need to have all fists when you can have power axes and save 10 points.
Don't Fists double your Strength as opposed to a buff of one or two? Plus they both strike at INT 1.


Anyway, alot of assumptions have been dispelled now that people are better understanding 6th, and it appears (I haven't confirmed it with my own eyes) that you cannot deepstrike of CSM Icons with Daemons which sucks.

Anyway, good luck finding ways to abuse the allies system. I know everyone is doing it, so you guys can all have fun together.
 

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I could be wrong, but the way I'm reading the allied detatchment rules your list would be illegal as it sit. The way I read the chart the allied detatchment needs at least 1 HQ and 1 Troop as compulsory if you choose to take the dtatchment option. Then you can additionally take 1 elite, 1 additional troop, 1 fast attack, and 1 heavy support from that allied codex.

I assume Chaos Daemons is your main codex on this list, so you could only have 1 termie squad and 1 oblit squad to keep it legal. Also as previously mentioned, unless your planning on deep striking the oblits and termies a personal icon is about useless to an allied force of daemons and CSM. However the Chaos Icon from the Daemons of Chaos book can be used on any friendly unit deep striking as it stands.

If we are just min maxing the troops, I'd suggest plague marines for your two troop choices. The way they have changed feel no pain they would actually still be fairly hard to kill as only instant death can remove it. Although Noise marines or Thousand sons could be pretty mean with the new rules too.

Knowing now that you'd have to drop a termie squad and a oblit squad you could invest in trying a raptor squad with a melta in the allied detachments open fast attack slot. The new jump pack rules are neat and they would gain the hammer of wrath rule. Just an idea to toss around.
 

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The new chariot rules could make the heralds on chariots that much meaner, if they do apply and I think they do. Chariots will be a solid choice all around now.
 

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Okaaayy...from the OP's comments I'm guessing this is just a theoretical list to find out the synergies CSM and CD can have in 6th.

Fair enough.

DAC's comments are very valid, but as he's pointed out he's gone more for a Tzeentch theme.

To add, firstly I agree that this list is invalid - you must have a CSM HQ and can only take 1 other allied HQ at this level (unless you're taking 2 detachments?..I think that applies for >2000 pts only?) *EDIT* have just realised that double Allied and primary detachments apply for 2000 pts and up. wow, not only is this list legal but opens up a whole lot of possibilities.

PB squads need to be buffed to 7 - good at objective camping but means you have less points to attack with. Drop the screamers, and the heralds. You need more ranged support at 2k points, and need to either bulk up your CSM squads or add 2 more min/max CSM melta squads. Instead of more blits perhaps consider a flying tzeentch DP?

Your sorc is very expensive for what he does, maybe doombolt and meltabombs instead of bolt of change? Add some combi-meltas to the termie squad to add some threat - maybe drop the reapers- and drop the termie squad the sorc is joining to 4.

That should bring you to around 2k points, with 6 scoring units, 3 HS, and the termie/fatweaver bubble you were looking for.
 
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