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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi I am aware that the new rules do not allow me to just rely on heroes to get the job done so I have adjusted my empire. Here it is:

Characters

Kurt Helborg the Reiksmarchal-325 points

Battle Wizard-level 2 and has the crystal ball and Van Horstmann's speculum-145 points

Core

20 swordsmen with full command-145 points

2 detachments of 10 halberdiers-100 points

20 handgunners with a marksman armed with a hochland long rifle-183 points

2 detachments of 10 handgunners-160 points

The knights of Morr-8 knights armed with lances and shields and has full command-224 points

The Templars of the Everlasting Light-8 knights armed with lances and shields and has full command-224 points

Special

5 Outriders-has an outrider champion (unsure if his weapon will be repeater handgun or grenade launching blunderbuss-121 points

5 Outriders-has an outrider champion (unsure of his weaponry either)-121 points

The Grand Order of the Reiksguard-8 inner circle knights including full command-248 points

total-1996 points


Helborg joins the Reiksguard (obviously!) and is supported either side by the other knights who will sweep down a flank with the non inner circle knights ready to protect the flank of the reiksguard by charging the unit in its flank provided the reiksguard hold out.

The wizard will probably join the swordsmen where he will offer himself to overpowered heroes as a vulnerable target. The use the speculum to chop said hero from head to foot.

The outriders will either cover the flanks of the swordsmen units halberdiers (who will in turn be covering the swordsmen's flank) or cover the opposite flank the knights are riding down.

The handgunners will set themselves behind the swordsmen or on a nearby hill overlooking the swordsmen and give covering fire. The hochland rifle will be useful in sniping at lone wizards or battle standard bearers.
 

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Hello there Steven!

I have a couple of things to comment on your list, but beforehand I would like to point out that you really should look at what 8th edition has coming.

Some things I picked up about Empire are that knights are really going to struggle in this edition. Sure they can fight in two ranks but this edition will be seeing massive infantry units that are going to be stubborn if they outnumber you. Meaning that your knights will get bogged down really quick while in subsequent turns you get overwhelmed. There also is a high probability that you will strike last anyway cause combat is now resolved strictly in initiative order. And with your knights being only I3 there is a good chance that you will be facing the attacks first before you can counter-attack.
So what im kind off saying here is that you really need to step off those knights and go more infantry heavy. Though you could still use one or two vanilla units with a banner for claiming objectives in the last few turns.

Like I said before 8th edition will be more about infantry than cavalry. And to be honest units of 20 swordsmen really don't cut it. Even in 7th edition a unit of 20 swordsmen is on the low side. In my opinion you now have two options for Empire infantry. Either you go for the 10*4 sized units to get that horde rule (extra rank can attack) for more killyness or you go for 5*5 sized units for scr in a more supporting role. The units really need to be that large to soak up enemy attacks because every unit in the game now can attack in 2 ranks instead of one.
Besides all those changes the choice of standard infantry hasn't changed for the Empire. Swordsmen still are the best choice because they are the only unit in the Empire army to have I4 instead of I3. And yes even our elite greatswords have the lowly I3. Though the sword and shield combo no langer grants them the +1 save they do get a 6+ ward save from it, statistically getting them a better save than before. Spearmen are still second best because in the horde formation (10*4) they now get to attack with 4 ranks! The downside is that its at I3 again. Finally halberdiers have become slightly better on average because of the increased damage output from fighting in two ranks but they are still I3.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a unit of greatswords are more or less mandatory now because of their stubborn rule. If you combine the stubborn with the re-roll from a bsb you almost got yourself an unbreakable unit that holds the line indefinately. It gives you a lot more certainty in a game that has just gotten more uncertain combat wise. As a fact greatswords are now the best flank defending infantry that an Empire player has.
In contrast of the greatswords getting way more valuable, flaggelants are now almost useless. Sure they still are unbreakable and now they can attack in more ranks but so does the enemy. And with flaggelants having no armour save their numbers will dwindle past extinction level in no-time.
As a final on your infantry you als need to bulk out a bit more on the combat detachments. In 8th edition you need at least 2*5 ranks to deny an enemy units rank bonus. Complementary to that rule is that ranks are now counted after combat has been resolved. This means that if your ten man unit gets a single casualty from shooting, magic, combat or w/e that you no longer can deny your enemies rank bonus. So in short Empire players will need at least 3*5 ranks on their detachments to have a reasonable chance of denying rank bonuses.

Now some stuff about the Empire shooting fase. The new rule that allows any shooting unit to fire in two ranks is a general boost for every army as this means that you need less space in the deployment zone for the same effect. For Empire this is more of a boost than other armies because our deployment zones are generally more crammed. Another really important rule is that partials are no longer there on template weapons. Now every model that is touched by the template gets hit. Effectively this means that template weapons now get twice as more hits than before. And as fate would have it the Empire army has not one but two template warmachines; the mortar and the rocket battery. Put bluntly an Empire player would be a complete retard (or fluffmaniac) if he didnt use at least either one of them.
Outriders and pistoliers got a bit of a boost by an addition to the fact cavalry rule that grants them a free move before the battle start. Though I do no yet know if this conflicts with the move or fire from the outriders. Using outriders in a 2*5 formation also seems viable because you can fire in two ranks and therefore can push out tons of lead each shooting fase. Pistoliers also got boosted by the increased pistol range from 8inch to 12inch. However in this edition march blocking has been deleted from the pages. So the sole purpose of pistoliers are now to hunt warmachines or pick off lonely wizards or ranks.

Finally on characters. The shift of 8th edition to the percentage system has given more flexibility to Empire players. Its not a huge advantage because characters are less important in this edition. The units are made more resillient to those killing machine characters. In a fact it is a bit of an advantage since we never had killing machines and now we nog longer have to deal with them as much as we used to. Boosting the leadership and granting bonuses for units is the main purpose for characters now. Luckily for us our humble general of the Empire is quite the catch at only 80pts. Though the grandmaster now is quite redundant as cavalry no longer is what its used to be. So even Kurt Helborg has been shoved back into the storage room. His laurels of victory with the runefang could still be useful in a single knight unit for acr, however Helborg is a bit pricey. Those points could be better spent on a leadership boosting general for your infantry-line and more troops.
Thanks to the changes in the magic fase a single wizard can be sufficient to be average in the magic fase. A level 4 wizard is very important for any player as you add the casters level to each dice roll (spell and dispell!). I guess a single battle wizard could suffice in magic defensive armies as long as he is equipped with a dispell scroll and a luckstone. For magic offense or a stronger defense a wizard lord really is required to seal the deal.

So where do we stand after all that ranting?
- knights are next to useless unless stripped bare and used in a supporting role
- infantry is the way to go for Empire players
- swordsmen still rock best in general infantry
- greatswords are now one of the best units for the Empire player
- flaggelants suck
- mortars and rocket batteries are now awesome!
- outriders and pistoliers could have their uses
- leadership and unit boosting items are very important to characters
- grandmasters are the worst lord choices

And I'm spent... :victory:
 

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Yilmar has coverred pretty much all the points that effect Empire under the new rules the only thing to add is that with lots of cheap characters available it's now a good tactic to flood the field with as many cheap characters as possible.
LORDS you can get a cheapish lvl 4 wizard and a half decent Empire general or Arch lector at 2k, Templar gms although better at fighting offer no benefits to the rest of the Army unlike a bog standard general who lets you have a magic banner or the lector who's armywide benefits are obvious.
Hero's, A battle std is now an immediate no brainer as it got so much better, normal hero's can boost units and tip a massed combat in your favour, Warrior preists although their magic is screwed at the moment rerolls to hit etc are to good to miss. you don't need to max out on wizards to be competative now so a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 should be enough. Even Engineers have got better, Artillery is more accurate so the engineer can help with the misfires and as less armies will have multiple wizards the hochland longrifle comes into its own as do pigeon bombs.
There are enough points available that every infantry unit can and should have some character assistance.
 

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disagree if anything there prayers are better using dice means spells less likely to be dispelled and get extra dice in the dispel pool because of them
 

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The problem with that though is your using dice for unit buffs that are better used on important spells from your casters, When you add in that preists have no powerlevel to artificially bump up the casting of the spell then it's a 50/50 dispel at worst for even a level 2 wizard and depending on the prayer may even be worth throwing a dispel dice at or waiting until the next magic phase and nullify it when it hurts most.
Granted the extra dispel dice comes in handy and was one of the reasons I mainly took preists in 7th but offensively they just can't measure up to a wizard in the magic phase at least theyr'e better just leading units and any prayers are at best an afterthought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok then. It seems that my originl army is completely out of the window. I picked Helborg because I think the model is awesome. I actually intended to charge enemy horde formations with all 3 knight units at the same time to just inflict crippling casualties.

Never the less I shall post a new army that might be more traditional and balanced for an Empire army. Be back in a mo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Here it is so enjoy.

Characters

General of the empire-armed with a shield, the sword of power, the dawn armour and the icon of magnus-183 points

Wizard Lord-level 4 and has the crystal ball-225 points

Captain-carries the battle standard and wears full plate armour-83 points

Core

30 Empire Swordsmen-includes full command-205 points

Has 2 detachments of 15 halberdiers-75 points each

20 handgunners-has a marksman-163 points

Has 2 detachments of 10 handgunners-80 points each

Special

Great cannon-100 points

Great cannon-100 points

Mortar-75 points

30 Greatswords-has full command-330 points

Rare

Helblaster volley gun-110 points

Helstorm Rocket Launcher-115 points

This fits more in line with you analysis. The general will sit with the swordsmen whilst the captain supports the greatswords. The wizard lord will sit in my firing line and become a magical battery. I now just need to be better at guess ranging so all those war machines can fire accurately. The cannons in particular will be helpful as they can launch grapeshot st pesky scouts and beastmen ambushers.
 

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The point with simultaneous charging is that you migh fail one. This is especially true with movement and charges that got much more random in 8th edition. Infantry now moves/charges with 2*d6 + their original movement and cavalry 3*d6 + their original movement. With the inclusion of dice rolls for movement it gets much harder to move all units a certain distance in a turn. Therefore simultaneous charging is far to random and cant be relied on.
Another thing for you to consider is to run your wizard lord on his own. Though he will be more vulnerable, he at least wont blow up your own troops when he miscasts. And when he miscasts there is a high probabbility of him doing so. Look up the new miscast results on the net and decide for yourself if you would risk your own troops to aquire some safet for your wizard lord.
As for guessing with those warmachines, you no longer have to. If I read correctly all warmachines can measure ranges for their shots now. So the only deviation that has to be taken into account are the artillery and scatter dies. So yea artillery just got that more effective.

To give you a little bonus click here to see all the new common magic items that are available to all armies. Arcane items aren't mentioned in there but thos can be looked up if you google it. Remember that the old common magic items and their points cost are now redundant and the new common items list prevalent. Also keep in mind that both the new common magic items and the specific magic items of the Empire can be used seperate or in combination.

Now about your list. You improved it a great deal, though I think that with only 2 infantry units your core is lacking and easily overwhelmed. It is true that you have a nice artillerypark going there but artillery is a random factor. They can perform outstanding when you have luck on your side, average when things are going normal or crap when you lucked out and misfire a lot. I usually go for a bit more fighting units with scr because luck doesnt interfere with it. When I design my armies I always make sure that my fighting core can operate on their own. Meaning that if my shooting fails me that my fighting core is still tough enough to possibly force a draw. I guess what im saying here is that you need to balance things out more. Just make sure that when uncertain factors like magic or shooting fail completely you can still dish out some reasonable amount of pain to your enemy.

I know that I can be a bit vague when expressing my thoughts, so if you'd like I can draw up an army list on what I have been preaching here.

:victory:
 

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While the numbers are good you seem light on units.
With the hand gunners I'd be tempted to take them as either 1x 20 +2x 10 each with a marksman with long rifle or as 4x 10 with longrifle (The longrifle will decide games, With elite armies averaging 1 wizard and a fighty character the chance to send 4 shots a turn at the often unprotected wizard should see him dead by turn 2 or 3 giving you both plenty of vp's and magic superiority.)
personaly I'd ditch the fighting detachments in favour of a proper unit (At least unit the FAQ's ), They won't get the bonuses that the big units get and with the larger frontage most armies will have just means that hitting the sides will be harder to achieve and striking in initiative order will see most of them dead before they do anything.
The volleygun is pointless without an Engineer BS3 just doesn't do enough unless it's short range and anything at short range will just charge you luckily you still have around 500 pts spare for characters.
To make points for this I'd probably reduce the greatswords to 20 or 25 and keep them 5 wide their armour should see them weather most basic infantry attacks, Drop a cannon as they are not as good as they used to be and possibly replace it with a mortar and if you still need points bin the volleygun as it's living of it's reputation from 2 editions ago.
 

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The volleygun is pointless without an Engineer BS3 just doesn't do enough unless it's short range and anything at short range will just charge you luckily you still have around 500 pts spare for characters.
Uhm, unless I missed something master engineers cannot grant their higher BS to the so called "new warmachines". Under these new warmachines the volley gun and rocket battery are classified.

All other given advice is correct and I also agree with them.
 

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There are 2 rules covering this and I think your getting them mixed up, Master of ballistics covers the rule your thinking of which lets you reroll a misfire dice for cannons and mortars but not the volleygun or rocket battery.
Extra crewman is the one I'm on about which lets the engineer join any warmachine and it even has in brackets that volleyguns fire with his ballistic skill.
My Empire army although set for 2500 has
1 level4 wizard
1 level 2 wizard
Arch lector and BSB with 38 swordsmen
Warrior preist and fighty captain with 38 swordsmen
4x10 handgunners with longrifle
2 mortars
1 helstorm
and an engineer with long rifle
I know it lacks the fancy stuff that most like to bring to battle but both my core fighting blocks will probably be stubborn, have hatred rerolls and get the horde benefit and with I4 Ws 4 can hold there own against most units especially with the 2 tooled up characters in each unit.
With 5 longrifles popping off shots at any magic user I don't see them lasting to far into the game while the rest of the handguns can shoot anything that looks to good for my swordsmen to kill.
And if thats not enough 3 lovely templates to squish any big units.
 

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I stand corrected then.

Your list looks quite good actually. Though if it were up to me I would rely on a bit more units. Especially because there are quite a few objective based scenarios out there. And to claim an objective you need to have a unit with a banner. And to be honest only two units with banners, though massive, aint going to cut it. My advice to you is to include some more banner bearing units, preferably vanilla knights with only a banner as late game objective hunters. I'd also recommend getting a bit more strength in that army cause you're going to struggle against ogres and any other monster you can think of with high toughness.

But back again to the thread cause we dont wanna hijack it, right?

Stephen we humbly await your answer.

:victory:
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry for my absence. I hear ya and i believe that since I still had some points left a lot of complaints are aimed at the helblaster then an upgrade to a second helstorm seems better.

Perhaps reducing the greatswords by a few men and field them in a smaller unit frontage.

2 ways that I have made to get past objective covering missions. First most people are mainly happy to play a victory points or annihilation style match. Second is if such a mission came up then common tactic would be to fire on a unit threatening to take an objective whilst a slow steady advance with my combat units to squeeze those left. Logically thinking if an army spends more points on banners then they will have less points to give to the actual men. It is why none of my handgunners have banners since they do not improve their shooting potential wheras a marksman does so I will pick him.

Another potential change is to drop the cannons and get the handgunners into 4 units of 10 each with a marksman with a long rifle. Oh and another mortar. That large template is going to hit something-at least some of the time.
 

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i would recomend keeping the greatswords at 30 if possible :), also i would recoemnd dropping both cannons for new mortars, large templates against those new big infantry armies are going to be very nasty :D and a hellstorm rocket battery is the way to go ;D

Also i would say that you are short on units but except by dropping greatswords/mortars i cant realy see a way if countering that :/ so its up to you in this case, more black powder or more hired swords :) depends on what type of general you are :)

alos warrior priest and arch lectors are amazing :D extra dispel dice is the key :D, cheap :) magic :) their magic can boost your own wizads, your close combat characters and your units, as welll as damage the enemy :) also hatred is always nice :D
 

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I also agree in keeping the greatswords at 30. Just read the battle report in this months White Dwarf and they also fielded a greatsword unit of 30 strong. And to be honest they are quite the show and can dish out masses of high strength attacks. Keep em close to your bsb and you have an unstoppable unit. A unit of 30 also works quite okay, you can go horde style in 10*3 or gor for maneuvrability in a 6*5 formation.
Also templates are really a good choice for Empire armies though I would be a bit reluctant to go all the way with them. Cause massing up on templates could be considered unfriendly and cheesy. In my army I find that 3 template artillery fit the bill quite nicely without going over the top.
For parting words I could also recommend a big unit of handgunners or crossbowmen with the banner of the eternal flame. That banner makes all their attacks count as magical fire and it can really prove to be very important when you're up against regenerating monsters.

:victory:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
With the current army 4 of my warmachines use template weapons. However a canny opponent will have realised I have spent a portion of my army points on easy to defeat in h2h units. He will neutralise them.

I will keep the greatswords at 30 mainly for the psychological factor when they deploy. The BSB does go here as the general is in the swordsmen unit.

The only problem I have with the arch lector/warrior priest idea is that they have low numbers of attacks, WS, BS and initiative.
 

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That's what van horstmans speculum is for, My lector has, armour of destiny, the speculum sword of might and a sheild for a 3+ 4+ save swaps most of his stats in a challenge then adds in some added St.
BS is irrelevant as he can't have any missile weapons and with the higher character allowance you can always get another cheap hero with a magic sword to dish out extra attacks.
 
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