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Discussion Starter #1
Well, after a long period of kibitzing, 8 E has brought me to actually start warhammer fantasy. Loved DE forever, and accumulated a force, but if there's stuff I need to get or I have fundamental errors in my structure, it would be good to find out. Am I too weak in characters? Too little archery? missing 'must have' units or taking ones that should be avoided?


Heroes:

Master with cold one, heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, sword of ruin 160

Death Hag with rune of khaine and manbane 140

L2 Sorceress with darkstar cloak and tome of furion 175

Special

9 cold one knights with full command, dread knight has a sword of might 298

17 Witch Elves with full command 195

Core

2 units of 12 repeat crossbowmen 120 each

20 warriors with shields, full command 155

30 corsairs with full command 325

10 Harpies 110

Master is with knights, death hag with WE, haven’t decided on sorceress
 

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its fairly good :) cold ones will make a good flanking unit and be effective for hammer and anvil :)
i would recomend more than one sorcerous in your army and with a unit of 30 corsairs it may be worth trying to fit lokir fellheart in their :) also may i ask why 17 withc elves?

for general advice blackguard/execuatoners are both very good units :) witch elves are ok but they will get killed fairly easily (no armour or anything :( war hydras are amazing espescialy with the new stomp attacks :) harpies are very good, espescialy at hunting warmachnies :)

in my personal opinion witch elves+death hag are good but not worth it in just one unit :( so i would recomend dropping them for something else, dropping both of these units will give you 335pts to work with :biggrin:

hope this helps :good:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The Witch Elf unit is 6 to a rank, so with the Death Hag the 17 gives 3 full ranks. I had hoped the third rank would mean enough survive to reach melee to slaughter some enemy troops.

As to Lokhir Fellheart, it was tempting, but I am generally against special characters (the other tempting one would be malus darkblade - goodbye stupidity on my cold ones!). If I dropped the witch elves (sob, my favorite unit) I would be able to up my master to a dreadlord to free up points for another hero (if WD is correct, 25% heroes and 25% lords). Why multiple sorceresses rather than one more powerful one?
 

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I would recommend dropping the sword of ruin for something else, sure you ignore armour, but your still only strength 4. But the rest of the army looks like it could perfom well. Only one wizard at the 2k level could prove to be a problem for you, and I dont find witch elves at all useful, if they manage to make it into combat they can hurt, but low str, T, and no armour make them a points sink in my books. But if you like them, more power to you.
 

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Heroes:

Master with cold one, heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, sword of ruin 160

Death Hag with rune of khaine and manbane 140

L2 Sorceress with darkstar cloak and tome of furion 175

Special

9 cold one knights with full command, dread knight has a sword of might 298

17 Witch Elves with full command 195

Core

2 units of 12 repeat crossbowmen 120 each

20 warriors with shields, full command 155

30 corsairs with full command 325

10 Harpies 110

Master is with knights, death hag with WE, haven’t decided on sorceress
The Cold One Knights won't be as good in the new edition, but still should serve well enough when hunting expensive stuff. Reduce the number of them, and change the Master to do something else. Death Hag will just be chopped up by return attacks, invest in a Cauldron of Blood, and make her the BSB if possible. The core seems good, though I'd drop 4 harpies in order to take the SSS on the Corsairs, and drop a few of them as well, to add more bodies to the warriors. As well, invest in a Hydra. They're absolutely devastating now.

Another point about your characters, the Sorceress is an illegal build, you can't have two arcane items, drop the Darkstar Cloak, and if you trim some stuff off elsewhere, you can get a second level 2. Running one with ToF and one with Darkstar will prove to be quite a good magic phase, though I personally would prefer one level 4 for this.
 

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The witch elf units will have trouble in 8th edition suriviving combat. The deat hag is not well-protected or as effective without the Cauldron of Blood (gives her a 4+ ward save, some protection from shooting, and two hags to defend her). She'll kill some stuff and then get killed in the first round of combat against any ranked up unit and never earn her points. Black guard will be far superior with immune to psych, 5+ armour, greater strength, magic items for the champ, stubborn and able to carry better banners.

9 COKs is a bit much and are not as strong in 8th edition. They now should be no larger than 6 and used for flanking and rear attacks and supporting other units far more than as the hammer they were in 7th edition.

You really need a Lord. At 2000 points (most of us are working with 2400 or 2500 points as the default standard now in order to allow for reasonable Lords for Lizardmen and Daemons and a few other armies), a Level 4 sorcerer is a good buy (given that it gives more choices in a chosen lore and gives a full +4 bonus to all cast and dispel attempts) or else a cheaper dreadlord with a lot of protection stuff. The Pendant of K is the best protection available and, when combined with good armour for the dreadlord, can make the dreadlord very hard to kill.

The two best units or hydras and repeater bolt throwers. 1 hydra and 2 repeater bolts are just about necessary to combat tough to kill stuff and fit under the 25% limit for 2000 points. Otherwise, the army will get run over when facing tougher units.

Harpies should be in units of 6 at most. They really are diminished in abilities in 8th edition. A unit of dark riders with the vanguard rule and repeater crossbows is a better choice now for going after war machines.

Repeater crossbows are excellent, by far the best core unit, and can now shoot in two ranks and fight with shields effectively. They should have shields for the extra armour save and the parry save (6+ ward save) bonus in close combat. If you are running corsairs, they should have the Sea Serp banner that gives them frenzy since frenzy is a lot better (can avoid charging with an LD test).

Finally, you need a battle standard bearer for the ability to re-roll leadership checks and break tests in 8th edition. A master with good armour protection and good weapons or the death hag with the cauldron of blood both make good choices but need to be protected.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
First of all thanks for all the suggestions.

1) Am I incorrect in thinking that the second rank of knights will get their lance attacks and then continue to fight (not the second rank cold ones, of course)? I had gotten the impression that the single rank cavalry unit was now obsolete in 8E, or I'd never have considered such a large unit of CoK (my plan back in 7E when I was buying stuff was 2 units of 5, each a bodyguard to my general and sorceress respectively).

2) I had thought that if the Death Hag was in the unit with the witch elves, she would be the last to die (I may be misunderstanding the casualty rules), and that with I6 if the WE actually get to combat they will unleash a horrific number of poisoned attacks before the enemy strikes. Harder to -get- there, of course, because of the T3, but perhaps my 40k experience is makign me unfairly disregard the 5+ save of other units as basically meaningless, putting the rest of the army in much the same position.

3) hadn't realized you couldn't have 2 arcane items. Good catch.

4) I originally took the Sword of Ruin anticipating challenges from equivalent enemies (the sort that go looking for a unit of CoK) - would a hydra blade be better?

5) I only have 13 blackguard (command set, regular set and a blister with 3) - I get the impression that 2 ranks isn't really enough? Do I need to bite the expensive bullet and bulk up to 20?

6) I had originally planned on 2 units of 5 harpies for roles like pulling out Goblin Fanatics, targetting war machines or solitary wizards, flying behind units etc.. Is 2 units of 5 good, or just 1 unit of 6 and keep the points for something else?

I had never really considered hydra's necessary (interesting, but not necessary). It appears I need a rethink. Will return with amended list...
 

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A good weapon I always take on a master is the Crimson death. sure it takes two hands, but you will be hitting at str 6, and still with your high initiative, and mounted on a cold one, he still has a good armour save. I dont know about the new ED but im pretty sure that lances are still one rank only. So that big a unit is a points sink in my eyes, and the 5+ save isnt incredible but its the staple of most armies in WHFB, so the witch elves are actually a very weak unit to shooting, and enemy counter-attacks. As for the witch hag in combat, she can be directly targeted by the enemy, so may die first.
 

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First of all thanks for all the suggestions.

1) Am I incorrect in thinking that the second rank of knights will get their lance attacks and then continue to fight (not the second rank cold ones, of course)? I had gotten the impression that the single rank cavalry unit was now obsolete in 8E, or I'd never have considered such a large unit of CoK (my plan back in 7E when I was buying stuff was 2 units of 5, each a bodyguard to my general and sorceress respectively).
The second rank do get their attacks, but the exorbitant cost of such a unit makes them not very viable in 8th, except for flanking to provide a hammer to the anvil of a good spearman unit.

2) I had thought that if the Death Hag was in the unit with the witch elves, she would be the last to die (I may be misunderstanding the casualty rules), and that with I6 if the WE actually get to combat they will unleash a horrific number of poisoned attacks before the enemy strikes. Harder to -get- there, of course, because of the T3, but perhaps my 40k experience is makign me unfairly disregard the 5+ save of other units as basically meaningless, putting the rest of the army in much the same position.
No, the enemy can choose to allocate attacks against her. That's 3 attacks at minimum, with, depending on who you're fighting and whether you're flanking, 3 to 9 more attacks coming her way. 2W with T3 is easy to rend apart. The Witch Elves in a large unit will have to have the support of a Cauldron with 5+ ward save to ever survive well enough. Better to have them in small units or 10ish models for flanking attacks.

3) hadn't realized you couldn't have 2 arcane items. Good catch.
No problem. :)

4) I originally took the Sword of Ruin anticipating challenges from equivalent enemies (the sort that go looking for a unit of CoK) - would a hydra blade be better?
In the new edition, there's plenty of stuff to snipe out characters with expensive items. I would suggest looking a bit lower down in points value. Whip of Agony now nets you an extra attack after the FAQ, and Crimson Death has always been a favorite. Both are quite cheap and provide some punch.

5) I only have 13 blackguard (command set, regular set and a blister with 3) - I get the impression that 2 ranks isn't really enough? Do I need to bite the expensive bullet and bulk up to 20?
Since Black-Guard are Stubborn and built to fight to the last man, you actually do have enough to run them. I would still bulk up to 20. They're still the best Special choice Dark Elves have.

6) I had originally planned on 2 units of 5 harpies for roles like pulling out Goblin Fanatics, targetting war machines or solitary wizards, flying behind units etc.. Is 2 units of 5 good, or just 1 unit of 6 and keep the points for something else?
Their value has diminished somewhat, as they can't marchblock or redirect nearly as well as in 7th. However, they are still good as Warmachine hunters, and they now have the added role of hunting down remnants of units trying to deny you VP's. I think that lowering the amount is debatable, but a 6-man unit is the best for hunting warmachines, getting 9 attacks against what should be 2 or 3 models with light armor will net you a nice good amount of VP's.


I had never really considered hydra's necessary (interesting, but not necessary). It appears I need a rethink. Will return with amended list...
Hydrae aren't strictly necessary per se, but they are amazing, and add so much to any list. In 7th they were already practically an auto-take, and they've only gotten better. S5, T5, W5, A7. That's a great profile, and now you can use a breath weapon in combat (albeit only once), and thunderstomp. In combat, that's 7 attacks at S5 rerolling to hit, and 3d6 autohits at S5, so long as you don't take any wounds. Add to that a 4+ save, Regen, and Beastmasters on top of it, and you have a very killy unit, that can effectively tarpit even huge units of enemy spearmen from the front. Great value.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
OK, let's try this again. 1988 points:

Lords 492

Supreme Sorceress L4 with darkstar cloak 285 - Lore of Fire or Dark (not decided yet)

Dreadlord with cold one, heavy armor, cold one cloak, Crimson Death 207

Heroes 225

Death Hag standard bearer with caldron of blood 225

Core 711

2 units of 12 repeat crossbowmen 120 each

20 warriors with shields, full command 155

20 corsairs with full command, sea serpent banner 250

6 harpies 66

Specials 360

5 cold one knights with full command sword of might =195

10 Black Guard with full command 165

Rares 200

2 reaper repeat bolt throwers 200

This any better?
 

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I'm not sure if 10 black guard is a worthwhile investment, they would perform better with at least 20, though from your earlier post I understand your working with what you've got. But I would recommend beefing them up.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Certainly I will be working towards 20 Black Guard, but as you say I am working with what I have (if I had a hydra, I'd probably take it instead (the blackguard and the 12 unspent points cover it)). Alternately the points spent on the Black Guard and the 12 unspent points would cover a unit of 15 witch elves with full command. Another option would be an assassin for either the spearmen or the corsairs (the spearmen more likely, I think, as the corsairs are already dangerous).
 

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OK, let's try this again. 1988 points:

Lords 492

Supreme Sorceress L4 with darkstar cloak 285 - Lore of Fire or Dark (not decided yet)
For a level 4, thelore of Dark would just be wasting her extra casting potential. Fire is a good choice for damage, but take a good look at Death and Shadow as well.

Dreadlord with cold one, heavy armor, cold one cloak, Crimson Death 207
Consider changing to Whip of Agony. It now gives +1 attack, and since anything with good saves would be annihilated by the charge of the CoK, it would be a better investment. against all but large blocks of well-armored warriors.

Heroes 225

Death Hag standard bearer with caldron of blood 225
Definitely a good choice with the new edition. Keep in mind some of the combos that can be done with this throughout the game, and don't forget it. Adding +1A to the CoK at a critical juncture, or KB to a unit of warriors charged by those with good armor saves, can practically win a battle.

Core 711

2 units of 12 repeat crossbowmen 120 each
Consider dropping one, or trimming off from the rest of the list to get a musician.

20 warriors with shields, full command 155

20 corsairs with full command, sea serpent banner 250

6 harpies 66

Specials 360

5 cold one knights with full command sword of might =195

10 Black Guard with full command 165

Rares 200

2 reaper repeat bolt throwers 200
Bolt throwers aren't always a good investment. Might be a good idea to drop one to get more Black-Guard.

This any better?
Comments in red, otherwise, your list looks pretty good, though I would invest in some Cold One Chariot conversions to replace the Cold One Knights.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Third shot

Core 720

2 units of 12 repeat crossbowmen, guardmaster and musician 130 each

don't really see the guardmasters as adding a lot, but they filled points

20 warriors with shields, full command 155

20 corsairs with full command, sea serpent banner 250

5 harpies 55

Special 355

5 cold one knights with full command sword of might =190

10 Black Guard with full command 165

Rare 200

2 reaper repeat bolt throwers 200

Heroes 225

Death Hag battle standard bearer with Caldron of Blood 225

Lords 500

275 L4 supreme sorceress with tome of furion

The darkstar cloak didn't seem necessary with power of darkness and only one magician. The tome means she knows nearly every spell in the lore.

225 dreadlord, cold one, heavy armor, dragon cloak, shield, ogre blade

A little more costly than crimson death, but allows a shield also.

More Black Guard and a hyrdra appear to be the 'things to buy' for now. Thanks for the assist, all.
 
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