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Following the thread on multiple Hq, I though can Tigerus (or any other SP for that matter) do this with his command squad.

If so since it never states that he is a librarian in the rules, can you take a librarian in the command squad. i.e. one 24" foa and one 12" foa lol:biggrin::biggrin::shok::shok::biggrin:
 

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Don't think you can. You're right it doesn't call him a Librarian directly, but it also doesn't say he's a commander, so he can't use the 'commander' special rule that allows the extra HQs... nor can Marneus Calgar, whom you might think is a commander, as he can't have a normal command squad ('only' an Honour Guard squad, which isn't subject to the special rules about multiple HQs)...

And on that subject, if Marneus takes the Honour Guard, he can't have his Iron Halo, as the Honour Guard must take the Chapter Banner, and Iron Haloes and Chapter Banners are '1 per army...'

 

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No as it states that he takes a "Librarium Command Squad" so only a Chaplian may be attached to his squad.

Now what you CAN do is add the Libriarian as a second HQ choice and join him to the squad at any time during deployment/movement phase. This second Librarian can leave the squad at any time.

It doesnt matter that Marneus is commander or not but it states that he may take a command squad and that is where the special rule kicks in. Even still though his rules DOES include Rites of Battle per Commanders special rule so yes he is a Commander. Per rule 3 Librarians and Chaplians may join other character command squads at which point they count as a single HQ choice.
 

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Red orc, when it says one per army, it means one of each of those items can be carried by anyone with access to the armoury, not one or the other. so he can have his iron halo and chapter banner, just no one else can in the entire army
Really? In which case, I've been interpreting that wrongly for 3 years (and unnecessarily limiting my choices of funky kit, what's more!).

Are you really, really sure that's what it means?

 

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Yep Ordo Xeno Commander is correct in that its one of that specific item per army
 

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Codex: SM p 22 "Armoury - Wargear and Relics" par 1: "Each army may have a single item from this list" (my emphasis).

What does "single item" mean?

Does it mean "five items"?

Does it mean "single item (of each type)"?

Or does it mean "single" (ie "one") "item" (ie "thing")?

Ponder well, my children.

 

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...
It doesnt matter that Marneus is commander or not but it states that he may take a command squad ...
No it doesn't. It says he "...may lead an Honour Guard Command Squad..." (Codex: SM, p52, "Special Rules - Honour Guard"). He may "..,join a Command Squad..." (ibid, "Options").

There is no provision in the Honour Guard for other characters to be attached to it. Ergo, as Calgar cannot take a normal command squad which does have this special rule, other characters cannot be attached to Calgar's (Honour Guard) command squad.

...and that is where the special rule kicks in...
Except it doesn't, he can't lead a command squad, and Honour Guard can't have attached characters (at least, as it's written).

Even still though his rules DOES include Rites of Battle per Commanders special rule so yes he is a Commander.
That doesn't follow. It doesn't say Tigurius "is" a Librarian, or Cassius "is" a Chaplain; merely that they have the abilities of a Librarian or Chaplain. Equally, rules-wise, Calgar is not a commander, for the purposes of leading a command squad, merely he has the abilities of a commander, to whit "Rites of Battle: As Space Marine Commanders..." (ibid, "Special Rules - Rites of Battle"). It would be easy enough to have put: "Marneus Calgar is a Space Marine Commander (for Special Rules see p28)" but they didn't.

Per rule 3 Librarians and Chaplians may join other character command squads at which point they count as a single HQ choice.
Got no argument with that. Doesn't apply to special characters though, except Lysander as far as I can see, where it specifically states: "The squad may have other characters attached to it as normal." (ibid, p47, "Special Rules: Command Squad"). It doesn't in any other case - for a reason.

 

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No it doesn't. It says he "...may lead an Honour Guard Command Squad..." (Codex: SM, p52, "Special Rules - Honour Guard"). He may "..,join a Command Squad..." (ibid, "Options").
Well it states that he can join a Command Squad in power armor while he is in Terminator armor though he looses his ability to Deepstrike. Well if your taking join in your sence then it doesnt matter about deepstriking... he could join after he deepstriked or he wouldnt need to deepstrike as he deployed with the rest at the begginning and joined in the first movement phase... so why the statement that "he forfeits his ability to deepstrike"??? Because developers intention here was that he can still take a normal command squad in power armor. This was probably meant as one of those its an option that we (the developers) knew was an option and we were to stupid to right it in because we dont know how to rules lawyer things. The name "Chapter Master" might ring a bell. Whats the highest ranking commander you can take... oh yeah right a Master.

Except it doesn't, he can't lead a command squad, and Honour Guard can't have attached characters (at least, as it's written).
Rules for this is that "One Command Squad may be made up of Ultramarine Honor Guards." Read just above the bold print. Honor Guards are just upgraded Command Squads so they can do everything the normal command squad does. Marneus is not the only character who can have them... any HQ leader can take one.

That doesn't follow. It doesn't say Tigurius "is" a Librarian, or Cassius "is" a Chaplain; merely that they have the abilities of a Librarian or Chaplain. Equally, rules-wise, Calgar is not a commander, for the purposes of leading a command squad, merely he has the abilities of a commander, to whit "Rites of Battle: As Space Marine Commanders..." (ibid, "Special Rules - Rites of Battle"). It would be easy enough to have put: "Marneus Calgar is a Space Marine Commander (for Special Rules see p28)" but they didn't.
Options for Tigurius states he can take a "Librarian Command Squad"
Options for Cassius states he can take a "Reclusiam Command Squad"
Who else can take Librarian and Reclusiam Command squads?? Oh thats right... Librarians and Chaplians. The part were their names are "Chaplian Cassius" and "Tigurius Chief Librarian" might give a clue.
 

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Well it states that he can join a Command Squad in power armor while he is in Terminator armor though he looses his ability to Deepstrike. Well if your taking join in your sence then it doesnt matter about deepstriking... he could join after he deepstriked or he wouldnt need to deepstrike as he deployed with the rest at the begginning and joined in the first movement phase... so why the statement that "he forfeits his ability to deepstrike"??? Because developers intention here was that he can still take a normal command squad in power armor. This was probably meant as one of those its an option that we (the developers) knew was an option and we were to stupid to right it in because we dont know how to rules lawyer things. The name "Chapter Master" might ring a bell. Whats the highest ranking commander you can take... oh yeah right a Master.



Rules for this is that "One Command Squad may be made up of Ultramarine Honor Guards." Read just above the bold print. Honor Guards are just upgraded Command Squads so they can do everything the normal command squad does. Marneus is not the only character who can have them... any HQ leader can take one.



Options for Tigurius states he can take a "Librarian Command Squad"
Options for Cassius states he can take a "Reclusiam Command Squad"
Who else can take Librarian and Reclusiam Command squads?? Oh thats right... Librarians and Chaplians. The part were their names are "Chaplian Cassius" and "Tigurius Chief Librarian" might give a clue.
What the developers intended can only be guessed at; what they wrote is that Calgar can "lead" an Honour Guard Command Squad and can "join" a Command Squad. Do you disagree with that statement?

I think that you're probably right that their intention was that Calgar could lead a (normal) Command Squad. However, as it is written he can't.

Are you implying I don't know that a Chapter Master is the supreme commander of a chapter? You know very little about me Bishop, but please believe me, I've been following the Ultramarines since 1987 and I play for fluff. I know what a Chapter Master is. It would be polite, I think, for you to read O'sharan's and my posts at the beginning of the thread, and then think about what they are saying.

Honour Guards can most emphatically not do everything a normal Command Squad can do - wherever did you get that idea from? It has no basis in the rules. They can't take two special weapons troopers, they can't swap their bolters for bolt-pistol and close combat weapon and they can't pick veteran skills, for instance. Just three quick examples as to why the assertion that "they can do everything the normal command squad does" is just wrong.

As to whether other characters can take Honour Guard, can you show where I said they couldn't? I'm quite well aware that any Ultramarines army can (in theory) take an Honour Guard squad in place of a normal command squad.

I'm well aware of the options for Tigurius and Cassius. You do not seem to be aware of the point that O'sharan was making in his first post. I'd urge you to read it and have a think, instead of going "durr, the clue's in the name", which is a somewhat facile argument. After all, a 'demolisher' cannon does not always literally demolish everything; 'Dark Reapers' do not automatically mow everything down; and 'Kharn the Betrayer' might not, in fact end up killing his own side.

Why is this? Because names are one thing, and rules are something else. I can call a character "Lord Invulnerable the Utterly Impervious" but that doesn't mean he is. I have to play him by the rules. And in terms of the rules, Calgar is not a commander, Cassius is not a Chaplain, and Tigurius is not a Librarian. They merely have some of the abilities of those characters. They don't have others - the ability to choose wargear, for instance. So, ruleswise, they are something different.

This is the point I was trying to put to O'sharan in my original reply: that Tigurius, Cassius and Calgar are not as they seem; much as you claim 'they are' you can't actually present any evidence to back that up except to say 'it's their names', which I for one think is pretty unconvincing.

 

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:read:Ok again I pose this to you...

It states that he can join a Command Squad in power armor while he is in Terminator armor though he looses his ability to Deepstrike. Well if your taking join in your sence then it doesnt matter about deepstriking... he could join after he deepstriked or he wouldnt need to deepstrike as he deployed with the rest at the begginning and joined in the first movement phase... so why the statement that "he forfeits his ability to deepstrike" if hes not joining prior to battle during army creation?

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Except it doesn't, he can't lead a command squad, and Honour Guard can't have attached characters (at least, as it's written).
That sounded to me like you said no one else can take an Honor Guard. Im not saying that they can take plasma/melta and what nots. What I meant (and Im sorry if I came off diffrent in my first post) is that they are treated like any other command squad as far as attaching characters. You pick your HQ, add a retinue, attach additional characters, upgrade the retinue to Honor Guard and viola you have a nice huge point sink HQ choice! :)

Seeing that the only place where they mention "Librarian Command Squads" and "Reclusiam Command Squads" is beneath the Librarians and Chaplians, and seeing that Librarian and Chaplian is in the name, and seeing that they have all the rules for Librarians and Chaplians in their rules including a few additions. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, what do you think it is?:read::scratchhead::headbutt::wacko::blackeye:

When it comes down to descrepencies in rules and trying to determine what you can and cannot do in an attempted "book legal" game I always try to get at what the developers intent was. How the developers would play the game and what they intended to be the legal choices and options.

As to Osharans original question my answer/opinion is that no Tigurius is not able to have an attached Librarian in his command squad and Cassius is not able to have an attached Chaplian.
 

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To avoid this turning into a war of attrition, shall we just agree to differ on this and let everyone else get on with their lives?

As far as I can see, we disagree about 1 how far an honour Guard squad can be equated with a command squad; 2 how far special characters can be equated with normal characters; and 3 how far one can/should attempt to get at 'what was intended' vs 'what was written'.

As long as we never pit our Ultramarines armies against each other, it shouldn't really be a problem.

 

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To avoid this turning into a war of attrition, shall we just agree to differ on this and let everyone else get on with their lives?

As far as I can see, we disagree about 1 how far an honour Guard squad can be equated with a command squad; 2 how far special characters can be equated with normal characters; and 3 how far one can/should attempt to get at 'what was intended' vs 'what was written'.

As long as we never pit our Ultramarines armies against each other, it shouldn't really be a problem.

Yeah sounds cool with me. We agree to disagree untill (if ever) a FAQ clarifies this situation.:victory::wink:
 
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