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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So I got myself a copy of 1st ed aka Rogue Trader. I am reading thru the fluff and it hits me this is WAY better than 6th edition.

Compared to 1st edition the current iteration of the 41st millennium is asinine. Back then the Warp was really a dimension of randomness and chaos filled with innumerable gods and monsters, not just the playground for four pathetically pontificated chaos gods and their lackeys. Back then the Emperor actually got shit done, conveying his commands thru the Custodes he ran his empire personally. Back then there was no Ministorium, the Administratum was the only priesthood the Emperor needed. He was not confined the Golden Throne by his emo children during their rebellious phase, he chose to install himself into a machine that would enhance his already prolific psychic powers so that he could guide ships thru the warp, battle the horrors of chaos and see what was going on in his realm so he could better govern the Imperium. Back then the people of the Imperium were polytheistic, the people of the worshipped any gods they wanted and no one executed you for it (more often than not the gods heard your prayers and responded). Back then Eldar were not a dying race, they were dwelling in paradise and interfered with humanity purely for lolz. Back then we had female space marines. Back then dreadnaughts were just suits of battle armor able bodied people could climb into for battle and get out of later. Back then squats road around on trikes and blew up Orks and Slann with autoguns. Back then there were robots, zombies and vampires. IT WAS AWESOME!!!

How far we have fallen since then.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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I've read Rogue Trader. Frankly, while I think of it fondly in the same way that I think of other 80s sci-fi stuff fondly, I don't think it's as cohesive and well-put together as the current background material.

There are certainly things I think could be done better. Orks, for instance, are jarringly alien as compared to the rest of the setting. They are comedy relief where there shouldn't be any. They fit in well with the original setting, but where everything became more serious, they didn't change enough. The Tau still have the potential to be an integral part of the setting, but for right now they're too clean-looking, too much like a faction from a different game/universe altogether.

Those are just a couple of examples. Overall, though, Warhammer 40k is a brutal, beautifully dystopian vision of a war-filled future. It is a setting with potential for great stories to be told in a variety of different media. Rogue Trader's ceiling was never going to be greater than that of the old 2000AD comics, meaning no disrespect to another property for which I have a lot of fond memories (Judge Dredd, Rogue Trooper, etc.).
 

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Agreed, Phoebus.

The Rogue Trader era certainly had its moments, and did very well in capturing the overblown, gothic insanity and weirdness of the Imperium and 40k. (Space Marine and the Inquisition War series anyone?).

Sometimes it's more whimsical, satirical take on 40k worked, othertimes not so much. Some things i'm glad are out- human and eldar procreation, squats, other jarring elements.

3rd edition is when i think it all came together, the 3rd ed rulebook is one of the best for background fluff and a sense of what 40k was, what life in the imperium was like. That could be nostalgia talking though.

Rogue Trader and second edition did produce some truly fantastic supplements however.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Agreed, Phoebus.



Sometimes it's more whimsical, satirical take on 40k worked, othertimes not so much. Some things i'm glad are out- human and eldar procreation, squats, other jarring elements.
I am pretty sure that human/eldar hybrids are still canon.
 

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I've read Rogue Trader. Frankly, while I think of it fondly in the same way that I think of other 80s sci-fi stuff fondly, I don't think it's as cohesive and well-put together as the current background material.

There are certainly things I think could be done better. Orks, for instance, are jarringly alien as compared to the rest of the setting. They are comedy relief where there shouldn't be any. They fit in well with the original setting, but where everything became more serious, they didn't change enough. The Tau still have the potential to be an integral part of the setting, but for right now they're too clean-looking, too much like a faction from a different game/universe altogether.

Those are just a couple of examples. Overall, though, Warhammer 40k is a brutal, beautifully dystopian vision of a war-filled future. It is a setting with potential for great stories to be told in a variety of different media. Rogue Trader's ceiling was never going to be greater than that of the old 2000AD comics, meaning no disrespect to another property for which I have a lot of fond memories (Judge Dredd, Rogue Trooper, etc.).
The early ed's were great there's no doubt in that, but then GW decided to appeal to the 8+ crowd, don't believe me, read ultramarine fluff and compare it to COD The similarities are not surprising.

For the orks making them into one of the most sadistic races in 40K is easy, you just have to get creative.
 

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I am pretty sure that human/eldar hybrids are still canon.
They're not.

Aside from the immense cultural loathing the two sides have for one another, (hatred of the alien being a fundamental religious tenet of humanity and the eldar viewing mankind as vermin, as a lower class of animal than themselves) eldar don't even share the same DNA as humans or reproduce the same way.

Humans and eldar are entirely different species its like trying to breed a person and a horse, but the horse is from a planet on the other end of the universe with a completely different biological makeup down to the sub-cellular level.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
They're not.

Aside from the immense cultural loathing the two sides have for one another, (hatred of the alien being a fundamental religious tenet of humanity and the eldar viewing mankind as vermin, as a lower class of animal than themselves) eldar don't even share the same DNA as humans or reproduce the same way.

Humans and eldar are entirely different species its like trying to breed a person and a horse, but the horse is from a planet on the other end of the universe with a completely different biological makeup down to the sub-cellular level.
The Dark Eldar codex says pretty explicitly that human/eldar hybrids are a common occurrence in Commorragh. There is also Kaarja Salombar from The Chapter's Due who is described as having eldar blood in her veins.

As far as the how, humans and eldar were both engineered by the Old Ones. Eldar were created as weapons to fight the necrons and the humans were made for lolz.
 

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I have to admit that as I managed to get myself the realm of chaos books years ago, I have since had a
certain love for the utter randomness and insanity of the warbands they had and it serves as an
inspiration for my forever unfinished chaos marine army. Those books are amazing. I can't imagine how
complicated it must have been to play a large warband of completely unique and random misfits. Kind of
like in the movie "Wizards". Just legions of mutants, monsters, mongrels, demons, mercenaries and
armoured lunatics. Scum of the earth. Luckily chaos is so vast and varied a thing that this all still fits in
just fine, just without insanely many random rules (which admittedly would be fun).

Other than that, I do think it's a shame the black humour isn't there as much anymore and the imperium is
portrayed a bit too kindly these days (they're still not nice or anything). I liked the absurd fascism of the
old material. Of course I like the new stuff and depth of fluff now, but the old stuff does have charm.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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The early ed's were great there's no doubt in that, but then GW decided to appeal to the 8+ crowd, don't believe me, read ultramarine fluff and compare it to COD The similarities are not surprising.
That's a sweeping and inaccurate generalization. To begin with, it's ridiculous to argue that even the baseline of 40k is mean to appeal to pre-teens. Not beyond the actual game, that is. Evil gods, sadistic torturers, genocide, chainsaw swords, racism, and fascism are not themes meant to appeal to young kids. You might convince me that certain stories (some of the Ventris material, for instance) could fall under the PG-13 label, but you can't tell me that the marquee stories do that. It would take a very creative perspective to argue that Gaunt's Ghosts, the Horus Heresy, the Night Lords trilogy, etc., are aimed at young teens or pre-teens.

Incidentally, what do you mean by COD? Call of Duty? I can't begin to imagine how Call of Duty and the Ultramarines intersect, except for the most commonly basic themes.

For the orks making them into one of the most sadistic races in 40K is easy, you just have to get creative.
That's hypothetical, though. In execution, only the feral orks are really treated seriously. And even then, the same silly terminology pervades.

Speaking for myself, I can't begin to tell you how much it ruins my suspension of disbelief when high-ranking Imperial officers toss around terms like "Waaagh", "Nob", "Boss", "Telyporta", etc. I'm not saying those concepts aren't fun in their own right, but they're just jarringly dissimilar when put next to virtually anything else that's 40k.
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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its like trying to breed a person and a horse
That probably wouldn't stop some wealthy Imperial-types with a penchant for the unusual..... :spiteful:
 

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Have been in two minds about this. As I have mentioned frothingly on more than one occasion on here, I love RT40K, it was my introduction into the hobby and I spent vast swathes of my youth playing it. The openness of the system made for some awesomely individual armies (a friend used to run a Rogue Trader warband that would arrive on the table in converted Huey Hogs....) and the rules allowed and encouraged lists and vehicles like this.

However, with this in mind, the game and fluff needed reigning in and refined quite a lot. Have a browse through the RT40K rulebook and Space Marines are vastly different to how they are in later editions and some of the concepts seem to have been created with the aid of tippex and toilet duck. The game needed the Heresy, it needed the ideas of today to bind the game together.

As mentioned in a previous post, 3rd ed was the version of the 40k universe that seemed to get it spot on. 2nd ed was shiny and non threatening. RT40K had a grim setting but was also hugely, well, mad across the board for much of the fluff, background and scenarios (seriously, check out the scenarios......)
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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Fun times!

*fires up the jetbike* :good:
 

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That's a sweeping and inaccurate generalization. To begin with, it's ridiculous to argue that even the baseline of 40k is mean to appeal to pre-teens. Not beyond the actual game, that is. Evil gods, sadistic torturers, genocide, chainsaw swords, racism, and fascism are not themes meant to appeal to young kids. You might convince me that certain stories (some of the Ventris material, for instance) could fall under the PG-13 label, but you can't tell me that the marquee stories do that. It would take a very creative perspective to argue that Gaunt's Ghosts, the Horus Heresy, the Night Lords trilogy, etc., are aimed at young teens or pre-teens.
Some people here get off by dismissing WH40k as nothing more than childish literature all the while they continue reading the latest stuff.
 

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Bane of Empires
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As others have said, the lore is much more clearly organised and coherent now than it was back in the Rogue Trader-era. I think most people, myself included, look back are the pre-3rd editions with nostalgia rather than truly believing they were 'better'.

I don't exactly agree with all of the lore developments over the last few years and am quite often dismissive of the quality of several BL publications, but its hard to deny the setting is much more coherent now, and maintains a wider scope than it ever has.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
As others have said, the lore is much more clearly organised and coherent now than it was back in the Rogue Trader-era. I think most people, myself included, look back are the pre-3rd editions with nostalgia rather than truly believing they were 'better'.

I don't exactly agree with all of the lore developments over the last few years and am quite often dismissive of the quality of several BL publications, but its hard to deny the setting is much more coherent now, and maintains a wider scope than it ever has.
The coherency is part of the problem. Back in the day the galaxy was filled with wide open spaces where who knows what could be lurking. These days the 41st millenium seems filled in, especially where the warp is concerned.

Chaos used to be this infinite realm that could give rise to anything. Now there are four chaos gods who have a handful of different servant-types. It is lame.
 

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GabrialSagan said:
Back then we had female space marines.
Wat? No.

GabrialSagan said:
pretty explicitly
Something can't be "pretty explicitly". It's either explicit, or it's not. Is there are quote from the DE codex about this?

Logaan said:
2nd ed was shiny and non threatening.
Wat? No.
 
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