Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So there's been a bit of discussion recently around the GK list board, which has gotten me thinking on how to make Mordrak work best. I think he really needs to utilise allies as support for his turn 1 drop; primarily in the form of a combination of Drop Pods and Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters. I've written two lists for your consideration, each bringing allies from a different codex (Space Wolves and Space Marines).

Bear in mind that these are really just concept lists, I in no way think that they are 100% polished, and input is greatly appreciated. I don't even think these are the best GK list around, but I do feel that something along these lines could be competitively viable

Also, if people think there's an alternate solution to Drop Pods, I'd love to hear it. I've considered bringing Interceptors, but they seem a little too expensive for what we want to do here.

List 1: 1850pt Mordrak with Space Wolf Allies List updated 22/05/2013

Primary Detachment- Grey Knights

HQ

Grand Master Mordrak with 3 Ghost Knights- 320pts

Troops

10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition- 240pts
10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition- 240pts

Heavy Support

Nemesis Dreadknight with Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator- 235pts

Allied Detachment- Space Wolves

HQ

Wolf Lord with Runic Armour, Wolf Claw, Bolt Pistol- 140pts

Troops

10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod- 205pts
10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod- 205pts

Elites

Wolf Guard Pack with Wolf Guard in Power Armour with Bolt Pistol and Combi-Melta and one Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour with Combi-Melta, Wolf Claw, in a Drop Pod- 172pts

Heavy Support

5 Long Fangs with 4 Missile Launchers- 115pts

So what we have here is, on Turn 1, you basically just dump Mordrak, a Dreadknight, and two Drop Pods of guys in your opponent's face and basically just see if they can a) Survive the Alpha Strike and then b) still have enough firepower to deal with all of that plus the two squads of GKSS that you scouted into midfield Turn 1 (via Mordrak's Grand Strategy) that are currently shooting them to shit. Alternatively, if you don't feel the need to scout your GKSS, you can have a scoring Dreadknight, which is pretty sweet.

Wolf Lord is basically a second Dreadknight that you can hide in a squad of guys bristling with Melta. I'd probably be inclined to bring down the Wolf Lord attached to the Wolf Guard alongside one Grey Hunter Squad in Turn 1 with the second Grey Hunter squad coming down later.

Oh, and the list has Long Fangs because, you know, Long Fangs :p

There are some tweaks you can make, like trying to bring a second Dreadknight by perhaps dropping the Lord back to a WGBL, and maybe dropping the Wolf Guard, but I feel the Wolf Guard are better anyways, and you still have insanely aggressive assault units in your opponent's face anyways.

The other funny thing is that this can be played as either a Grey Knight or Space Wolf Primary, although without Saga of the Bear on the Lord you're probably better off with Mordrak as a more resilient Warlord.

Second List: 1850pt Mordrak with Space Marine Allies List updated 22/05/2013

Primary Detachment- Grey Knights

HQ

Grand Master Mordrak with 3 Ghost Knights- 320pts

Troops

10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Hammer on Justicar- 250pts
10 GKSS with 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Hammer on Justicar- 250pts

Heavy Support

Nemesis Dreadknight with Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator- 235pts
Nemesis Dreadknight with Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator- 235pts

Allied Detachment- Space Marines

HQ

Librarian with Null Zone, Gate of Infinity- 100pts

Troops

10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun- 185pts

Elites

8 Sternguard Veterans with 3 Combi Meltas, 5 Combi Plasmas, Drop Pod- 275pts

So this list has a similar (read: the same) concept as the SW one. Turn one you shove Mordrak, 2 Dreadknights and the Sternguard in your opponent's face. If you need to kill something with invulnerable saves, then the Librarian pods down with the Sternguard and pops Null Zone in the Shooting Phase; otherwise he can be attached to the Tactical Squad in order to Gate them into the opponent as well. The thunderfire cannons just provides awesome support.

Overall, I feel this list is definitely weaker than the Space Wolf version, but if for whatever reason you can't play with Space Wolves (fluff reasons, or perhaps you have an ATC/ETC spot and SW are already taken, etc) then I think this could work.

Anyways, enough from me, discuss!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,071 Posts
I would personally be more inclined to take the SW version, just because (if memory serves me right) they can have AP 2 CC weapons, which is something the Grey Knights are severely lacking in.

The Thunderfire cannon intrigues me. I always thought/found they were a bit of a glass cannon and not entirely useful. Why take that and not just have more Sternguard?

Other than that, I don't know a lot about SW so it's hard for me to do any form of decent comparison between the two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
You are correct, the Frost Axes are AP2, and I would probably model the Wolf Guard Terminator as having a Power Axe as well.

I also feel that the SW list is stronger, but I just absolutely love Sternguard and leap on any opportunity to shoehorn them into a list :p.

Thunderfire Cannon is incredible these days. It was a glass cannon in 5th edition, since artillery pieces were AV10 vehicles that died as soon as they took a penetrating/glancing hit. They are now T7 W2 3+ save models, which makes them pretty damn survivable. And the gun itself is fantastic; it basically makes guard blobs and other things behind an aegis line go sadface with 4 S5 ignores cover blasts, and makes MeQ cry with 4 S6 blasts. All of that happens at 60" range.

You do have a point, it could be swapped for more Sternguard, but really, it nets me three more sternguard and thats it. Comparing the outputs of the two units, I think the Thunderfire Cannon wins out.

I'd pretty much always bring a Thunderfire Cannon if I'm playing Vanilla; either that or a Dakka Predator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,071 Posts
Ah, see I played a lot of 5th edition and the Thunderfire cannon sucked, and since 6th edition came out no one I know has picked up the Thunderfire cannon again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, the unit has a lot of stigma attached to it from 5th edition, but 6th made it stupidly good.

Take it to a comp tournament, get a high score for bringing three Thunderfire Cannons, and then proceed to kill everyone. Soooooooooo funny!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
Not bad but why no shooting weapons on teleporter NDK. it would make them more affective as meat shields. also why no psyflemen in either list. at least 1.

GK are not lacking in ap2 wpn all models in a SS can all have ap2 wpns. just thought id mention that fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
No guns on Dreadknight purely due to lack of points, and they're not 100% necessary; close combat is their primary function. As you scale to 2000pts, you would probably beef up the Wolf Guard/Sternguard and include Heavy Incinerators, but I wrote these lists for 1850 which is the common tournament point level in Australia.

No Psyflemen because they're not necessary, the lists are already tight on points and can already deal everything that Psyflemen deal with. The extra range (which is usually what a Psyfleman brings to a list) is moot considering you're putting your whole army right in your opponents face on turn 1. I guess you drop the Thunderfire Cannon and jig points around in the Sternguard list in order to bring one, but there really isn't room in the Space Wolf list.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
No guns on Dreadknight purely due to lack of points, and they're not 100% necessary; close combat is their primary function
Doesn't that make them pretty much useless as T1 support ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
They're still fine, because they're still there being a threat. If I set up my attack on turn 1 so I can have multiple units charging turn 2 (after my opponent inevitably deletes one of my units in their shooting phase), that's fine. That's the whole theory of the list.

Support doesn't mean it actually has to be attacking the opponent, it just has to be there backing up the other elements in the army. Sort of the same concept from Chess, using (for instance) a bishop to cover the queen. The bishop isn't directly threatening the opponent's pieces, but it is supporting the queen as it threatens your opponents pieces. On turn 1, the dreadknight doesn't kill anything, but it does threaten an assault next turn, and it forces your opponent to choose between dealing with it or some other element in your army.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,071 Posts
GK are not lacking in ap2 wpn all models in a SS can all have ap2 wpns. just thought id mention that fact.
Yeah, but if you notice, apart from the Ghost Knights, there are no terminators in the army so you would be paying 10 points for every Hammer you gave out, making a Strike Squad cost 80 points more than it already does (and coke said he was low on points that were free).

Plus, in my experience, more than 1-2 hammer(s) in a Strike Squad is rarely worth it, since most things that would be most hurt by AP2 and the things you really want to kill with them (i.e. TEQ) are often armed with AP3 weapons which strike before the hammers, meaning you lose a lot of your expensive AP2 weapons before you can use it. And against 3+ saves or lower, Strike Squads are AP3 in combat as standard. Hammers in Strike Squads, in my opinion should be reserved for challenges and busting open tanks, not in combat against TEQs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
unlike others coke i will say this, Good luck with your list and i hope it does well. you have your tactics and that is good enough for me. im sure you will change and apply whats needed.

To duche:yet they still have the option and that was my point to them not lacking ap2 weapon access. jesss do you even read the post before your reply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,071 Posts
unlike others coke i will say this, Good luck with your list and i hope it does well. you have your tactics and that is good enough for me. im sure you will change and apply whats needed.

You should probably go in a bit further, I'm not sure your entire face is brown yet. Just because none of us were like "I hope you do well" doesn't mean that we don't. Not everybody needs to be assured of how great they are like you do.

To duche:

Wow, we are already at name calling. I didn't even do anything :laugh:

yet they still have the option and that was my point to them not lacking ap2 weapon access. jesss do you even read the post before your reply.

Ok, so my post opened up with "Yeah..." meaning I agree. Strike Squads can take Nemesis Daemon Hammers. I'm not disputing that. They have the option.

What I went on to say that in a list such as this you would not want to pay 80 points just to give your Strike Squads AP2 weapons, especially when several of them are unlikely to get to use them effectively. It's expensive and whilst you could do it, you would be out of your mind to.

Really what is more important is not what you could do but what you should do. And you could give every Strike Knight a hammer, but you probably shouldn't. They have only 1 attack (2 on the charge, 3 for the justicar) and so it would be an expensive waste of points when Grey Knights are rather expensive anyways and there are more important things to buy with those points.

You could, but no one ever would because it would be madness to give every guy in your army an AP2 weapon, especially when the MEQ Grey Knights will be cut down by power swords before they get a chance to use their shiny expensive hammer.
:grin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
I would personally be more inclined to take the SW version, just because (if memory serves me right) they can have AP 2 CC weapons, which is something the Grey Knights are severely lacking in.
calling someone a brown nose is an insult idiot. As per your above statement this is what my statement was based from. You dont have to spend 80 points. you can go with any combination. It is all about the options you "can" employ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,071 Posts
calling someone a brown nose is an insult idiot. As per your above statement this is what my statement was based from. You dont have to spend 80 points. you can go with any combination. It is all about the options you "can" employ
God damnit, am I accidentally insulting you again? I'm sorry about that, I thought it was a compliment.

And yeah I said that, because they are. There are rather few units in the Grey Knight codex that can take AP 2 shooting weapons, and they are pretty much all vehicles, or henchmen which are rather fragile.

As for combat, your options are really only a Dreadknight, Dreadnought or Hammers.

And whilst I said that, I probably should have phrased it batter. I was meaning that if I would chose between the two lists, I'd pick the one with the SW allies, since they can bring non-unweildly AP 2 which is useful as well as lascannons etc. And, since coke123 had not included any terminators bar the ones with Mordrak (i.e. 3) the only other way to get AP 2 CC weapons would be to pay the points for the Strike Squad to have them, or put them in the Wolf Guard unit.

Plus, 6th edition has move the focus from CC to shooting, and when you compare Grey Knights to even their brother Space Marines, they lack AP 2, high strength weapons such as lascannons, plasma-guns/cannons, missile launchers etc. You can kit a tactical squad out with a meltagun and a missile launcher to deal with AV14 from range. With Grey Knights it's basically by psycannons and hope, of hammers and hope they survive until CC. They do have ways to bring AP 2, but it's not as easy to get hold of or to use or as numerous as many other armies, hence on balance they lack AP2
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
Can we take the bitch fighting somewhere else please guys ?

Coke, I'm seriously going to have a look at this list. I have a game against Tau coming up and I'm thinking that this might just have enough surprises to take 'em down ....... maybe.

I'm still a bit worried about the NDK's turning up "naked" but maybe I'll give it a crack.

When you're landing T1 is it everyone clustered or spread through the enemy deployment?

How do the tactics change between moving first or moving second ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Yeah, but if you notice, apart from the Ghost Knights, there are no terminators in the army so you would be paying 10 points for every Hammer you gave out, making a Strike Squad cost 80 points more than it already does (and coke said he was low on points that were free).

Plus, in my experience, more than 1-2 hammer(s) in a Strike Squad is rarely worth it, since most things that would be most hurt by AP2 and the things you really want to kill with them (i.e. TEQ) are often armed with AP3 weapons which strike before the hammers, meaning you lose a lot of your expensive AP2 weapons before you can use it. And against 3+ saves or lower, Strike Squads are AP3 in combat as standard. Hammers in Strike Squads, in my opinion should be reserved for challenges and busting open tanks, not in combat against TEQs.
This is pretty much spot on. Guys, you don't fight Terminators in close combat, you shoot them, you only need AP2 CC weapons on dedicated CC units, so those units options open up. GKSS are shooting units, and hence AP2 CC does not open up options for them; they should be shooting anything with a 2+ save.

unlike others coke i will say this, Good luck with your list and i hope it does well. you have your tactics and that is good enough for me. im sure you will change and apply whats needed.

To duche:yet they still have the option and that was my point to them not lacking ap2 weapon access. jesss do you even read the post before your reply.
I don't actually intend to play these lists btw, I started this purely as a point of discussion.

I'll also thank you to keep name calling to a minimum, the whole reason I started this thread was because the other one degenerated into childish bullshit.

Can we take the bitch fighting somewhere else please guys ?
+1

Coke, I'm seriously going to have a look at this list. I have a game against Tau coming up and I'm thinking that this might just have enough surprises to take 'em down ....... maybe.

I'm still a bit worried about the NDK's turning up "naked" but maybe I'll give it a crack.

When you're landing T1 is it everyone clustered or spread through the enemy deployment?

How do the tactics change between moving first or moving second ?
Dreadknights are a T6 2+/5++ save dude, if they've dealt with it they haven't dealt with the Wolf Lord, 15 Space Wolves, Ghost Knights and GKSS which are shooting them/about to assault them next turn.

Tactics shouldn't change much between going first and going second; the primary difference is how you use the GKSS. If going first I'd pretty much always scout aggressively forward in order to maximise the alpha strike; if going second you then need to take into account the amount of fire they will take before the Pods hit, so I'd be a bit more conservative (hide behind LoS blocking terrain, etc.)

When DSing you need everyone fairly close together; that's the other advantage of Drop Pods; there is little risk here. The basic idea is you just womp one flank, thereby essentially performing a refused flank maneuvre. You essentially want your whole army to be taking on half your opponent's army at a time. If your opponent has done something stupid like split their deployment around either side of LoS blocking terrain, take advantage of that, you basically can't lose after that lol. Never, ever scatter units throughout your opponents deployment, that just increases their options for dealing with your units.

Other tips:

If your opponent hides high values units in transports, just shake/stun the transport and then forget about it; if you do this the unit inside is neutralised next turn and you can now devote firepower elsewhere without fear of retribution.

Learning how to deepstrike is an artform in itself, but generally you want to try and force 1 vs 1 situations, where only the target unit can see the DSing unit (and you're about to kill it). This sort of stuff takes practice.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
Learning how to deepstrike is an artform in itself, but generally you want to try and force 1 vs 1 situations, where only the target unit can see the DSing unit (and you're about to kill it). This sort of stuff takes practice.
How do Drop Pods go as cover savers and blockers ? Is there a technique you can use to make yourself a "Laager" with Drop Pods ?

One of the main problems I have with a Mordrak list is the "gifting" of victory points you give to your opponent, basically giving them the ability to be 2 up right from the start and cutting back on the work they have to do.

You can avoid giving away 1 by making your warlord a cheap "stay at home" Inquisitor that sits on the home objective with a bodyguard, given that the enemy attention is on their own table half getting to your Warlord is now quite difficult.

Can you think of a way to ensure or at least make it quite likely that you don't concede First Blood?

All those empty Drop Pods and bullet magnets make it hard but maybe one "sure kill" unit that drops behind an enemy vehicle and blows it away or something ? Any ideas ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
You avoid conceding First Blood by achieving it yourself. At worst, you have a Wolf Guard squad dropping down first turn, just slag any tank on the battlefield (there's four meltas and a CML in that squad) and you're golden. On top of that, you have 10 GH double tapping and 20 GKSS going pew pew from midfield, and 4 missiles from Long Fangs, you should be able to get First Blood if you really want it.

If going second, the easiest way for your opponent to get first blood is probably the GKSS (obviously followed up by the Long Fangs). If it really worries you, try to mitigate the firepower they can put on your GKSS; scout behind a LoS blocking piece of terrain, set up so they're less vulnerable to blasts, etc. If your opponent has enough long range firepower to drop the Long Fangs, consider reserving them (although that would be a lot of guns...)

They're going to struggle to drop the dreadknight at range, just make sure it can't get double tapped by plasma. Dark Eldar opponents can probably deal with it, but otherwise there isn't much else that scares it, so just talk it up and let them waste guns on it. Maybe they'll take the bait :p...

Remember, you're not on the table first turn, so you always get to attack something with your ranged Drop Units. Mordrak should be as hidden as possible on the first turn; he has 4 wounds so between that and a hidden deployment, he shouldn't die. Just don't expose him to S8, and he should be golden.

Also, with specific regard to your Tau opponent, remember a whole heap of your guns ID battlesuits- especially your melta. If your opponent bring an Iridium Commander, and it is exposed, drop the melta behing his unit, drop all the suits, and then crush his commander. Otherwise just mitigate the unit.

Finally, I've been thinking about the lack of weapons on the Dreadknights and made some tweaks.

In the Space Wolf list, I'm thinking we might drop the CML from the Wolf Guard, and use the points to give the Dreadknight a Heavy Incinerator. I'm also thinking that a Wolf Claw is better than Frost Axe on the Wolf Lord; the Wolf Lord really shouldn't be fighting 2+ save units in combat without having Saga of the Bear anyways, so this lets him beat up MeQ even better and at initiative.

Also, I forgot to note the Wolf Standards on the Grey Hunters, they're pretty important lol.

For the Vanilla lists, consider dropping the Thunderfire Cannon in order to give the Dreadknights Heavy Incinerators and use the leftover points to grab another sternguard.

I'll update lists in the OP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Oh, and Re: Drop Pods as blockers-

They're OK, but their immobilised status makes them pretty ordinary at it. They're fairly easy to move around also, considering they don't exactly have the footprint of a Rhino. Generally, units can see through Drop Pods, so they will give a 5+ cover save rather than blocking LoS completely, which is actually pretty neat if you need cover for Mordrak in a pinch.

Drop Pods keep you alive by giving you the opportunity to kill your opponent first.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top