Autarch of Heresy
-- I'm sorry you feel that way, I am trying to help you out here.Uh... I'm going to be blunt- This is getting really condescending. This isn't primary school, and being disappointed in substandard homework is a little odd.
-- Lascannon is 2 Shot due to fast Shot. Highly Conditional? I suppose you mean about being in Area Terrain? If thats a problem you can switch the Shas'O to the Krakstorm side. How many Fortresses have you seen assaulted? You can just get out of the bunker and go to the battlements and your enemy just sits there watching you as you shoot them. 275 points is inefficient because you are spending so many points on substandard troops, its better to take those 65+ points and put them elsewhere, at least..IMO.Wait, so you're telling me that for the low, low price of 740pts I too can have a vehicle that can't move, but shoots 1 TL Ignores Cover Tank Hunter Lascannon and two TL S8 AP3 (highly conditional) Ignores Cover Ordnance Barrages? And when this vehicle gets assaulted it not only can't protect it's occupants, but actually amplifies the damage inflicted on them?
And you think 275pts for DAs in a serpent is inefficient? This is the definition of inefficiency.
The reason I didn't see this 'synergy' is two fold-
a) It's not a synergy- It's a combo. There's a small but important difference you need to understand, I'll expand on that later.
b) It's so woefully inefficient that I didn't even consider it as a viable option. Compare it to any amount of firepower brought by pretty much any firepower unit in the game and you'll see how awful it is.
Good point on the combo, ill change future explanations to reflect that, I learned something today so thats +Rep for you.
As for considering it a options, this is what I am trying to teach you, if you can figure out what a opponent is doing at a glance it really cuts down on the surprises, if you don't consider a point because you think its dumb, and then get rolled by that dumb point, whose fault is that?
-- Oh I think I do, 18 Kroot is a 38' line of denial, most lists are fairly one dimensional in how they arrive, its very easy to position your "shield" in the correct direction. As for the Skimmers and Jetbikes you "CAN" be correct, if you don't plan for it. You still need to place your models 1' from mine and I can still deny you a charge or even a location to disembark. Its also fine if they gun down the kroot, thats what they are there for, expendable bubble wrap. They also can only throw grenades and shoot Flamers inside of a fortress if there are Fire Points, and the Fortress only has one annex with fire points (hint, its not the Weapon annex's) so in your example the combo would still be going strong.You don't have enough Kroot to manage this. Also, it's not just Deep Strikers you need to worry about, but pretty much any form of mech carrying guys with grenades- they'll zoom right up to your Fortress, jump out and gun down the kroot. Next turn they throw a bunch of grenades inside your fortress next turn, and then whatever was inside is dead (and you don't have your combo anymore)
--Normally I would use Dark Reapers since the change, but you like Fire Prisms and I was throwing together a list with both of our likes. Your point is valid, but only matters depending on what you are fighting. Only deploy out if they have a strong alpha like with 3-4+ drop pods or 1 turn deepstrikers such as Deathwing.Wait, what? If you do that then you're not shooting one of the emplaced weapons next turn- only the commander is relentless and those guns are heavy... So your opponent cares even less?
--- Spamming the serpents are fine, but Spamming Str 6 is not. If you are talking about my prior lists, its all about getting a feel of how you play, working to narrow it down. TBH your making it hard but I am persistant we can come up with something that suits both your tastes and "definition" of what is competitive. The ignores cover power is Icing on the cake, not the cake itself, it functions fine without it.You didn't understand what I said at all. I was saying that the application of skill gives an equal increase in power to all units- so "You just need to use it well" is not a valid argument. If you apply good skill to a bad unit compared to applying good skill to a good unit, then the good unit is still always going to be more powerful. There's not magic point where a level of skill applied pays off more for one unit than another- a sub par unit is always sub par.
You haven't actually said why spamming is bad, you've just said that if you play well you can make bad units work, which is true, but irrelevant, and then posted some seriously non-competitive lists.
Secondly, this is not a lack of ability to discern synergy- you have presented no synergies. You have presented combos, and bad ones at that. Do you understand the difference?
A synergy is two elements working together to create greater advantage than the sum of the two elements would suggest. The important thing here is that the two units still need to be capable of working by themselves, but they are capable of creating advantage by working together.
An example of a synergy be something like "My Dire Avengers shoot up some marines and then my Striking Scorpions charge them"- Note that the Dire Avengers are still pretty good at shooting stuff and Striking Scorpions are pretty good at killing marines in combat, without requiring the support of each other, but they do generate advantage with unison.
A combo is a combination of elements used to create some effect, usually damage, but sometimes movement (as in the case of IC slingshotting. However, the difference between a combo and a synergy is that if any one of the elements fails, then the entire combo fails- the elements are dependent on each other. Your Fortress of Redemption is a prime example of this. If your Farseer doesn't get the ignores cover, then the power plummets. If I kill the unit manning the krakstorms (not hard, btw), the krakstorms stop shooting- I effectively 2-for-1 you, and I get a massive tempo advantage.
That's not to say that all combos are bad- if they're cheap and redundant enough then they can be pretty good. Examples of good combos are things like a Tau Iridium PENchip Commander on a Quad Gun, or PBS and Pinning weapons.
-- You seem mighty confident with what you have posted. I wish I lived in your world where you can just say something and it happens. You are very correct in ignoring the fortress as it is a huge distraction, really though in this specific situation its dangerous to ignore the cover busting attacks it posses, since you are basically relying on cover to protect yourself. Lets take a look.Well, there's too many variables there to really say, but-
My list is perfectly capable of beating your list; I would expect it to. Basically you ignore the fortress and focus on killing the mech. You can basically take the Lascannon out of the equation by focussing on the opposing flank. So long as I focus on the 1000pts than can actually hurt my army, I should win. Basically, I drop my Serpent Shields and look to down your Prisms as fast as possible with Ignores Cover. After that I probably start attacking your scoring, starting with the Jetbikes, and then finally I attack your fortress (mostly to kill the DA). Considering your lack of mobility, I'd probably take 1st turn- the only thing you have to contest is the Jetbikes, and I have the mobility to kill them, so that's no biggie.
Ignore the fortress and focus on killing the Mech? How? I think you mean "if I let you" You as the opponent running the list you presented have absolutely no way to dictate the flow of battle even vs the sample list. How exactly are you going to kill the tanks when you don't have LOS to them, or if you do its only along one side of a Acute angle representation of LOS. Its not like I would just push everything out in the open and let you shoot it. Thats honestly laughable.
"you can basically take the las cannon out of the equation by focusing on the opposing flank", interesting way of not realizing you can deploy the fortress in such a way as to have a view of the entire board such as in a corner. Or maybe the huge tower isn't there and place along the very back, or maybe the weapon annex's have been switched. You can't hide from that gun using the fortress itself if your opponent is clever.
-- This is good, but again its entirely possible to limit the amount of serpents you are able to do this with on a per turn basis, and once you drop those shields you lose your own tanks, so I probably wouldn't open with it.Basically, I drop my Serpent Shields and look to down your Prisms as fast as possible with Ignores Cover.
-- How are you doing this again? If they are behind or in the fortress you are unable to do so. If I have them in reserve you are unable to do so. your list has no way to hurt them unless I put them in the open(i.e> if i let you).After that I probably start attacking your scoring, starting with the Jetbikes
--All you have are 3 prisms (not counting the wraithguard since they will take 1-2 turns to get to me, and most likely would lose their transport after a turn) IF you go first and the list has not given itself a cover save, then yes you could easily damage them probably even destroy them. if night fighting is up they are immune to damage while both the Krakstorm and Lascannon can still shoot you...actually in this list I believe only the commander has night vision so then It would only be able to kill one Fire Prism (assuming It had LOS to it) Anyway, if you lose even just one Prism it drastically cuts your chances to actually destroy the bunkers fast enough since that is basically all you have for AT (hint you need more)and then finally I attack your fortress (mostly to kill the DA).
-- Only things that are not fast here are the Kroot and the infantry squads which are hanging out in the fortress(i.e. they are meant to be static), everything else is as fast as you. since the list would be using jetbike to squeak out a win then It would welcome the second turn.Considering your lack of mobility, I'd probably take 1st turn-
--This really only depends on how much damage the list would have inflicted on you, really can't tell at this juncture since you only brought 420 points capable of really hurting it.the only thing you have to contest is the Jetbikes, and I have the mobility to kill them, so that's no biggie.
-- Wow I am stunned, when did AV 12 become proof against TL 4-12 Str 7 shot volleys (not including Arc)? Where I'm from each one of those flyers would poof a serpent/prism per volley. You ONLY have 3 Hull Points and a 5+ jink save to protect those serpents. I don't think this fight is as easy as you make it out to be, especially since you will only get around 1 hit per 7 shot volley per serpent and even vs AV 10....ehhhh thats a real long shot. Also the Cron players really should ONLY disembark on turn 5, if he gets out sooner then he lost to you on purpose.Cronair- My list beats it so hard it it's not funny- they rely on S7 firepower, and I have the mobility to minimise their firepower on my AV12 hulls whilst I wait for them to disembark and kill their infantry. I'd probably take 2nd turn in objective missions.
-- 2 Drakes are only like 350 points (unless you mean double force org 6 Drakes, see below). That is still 1500 points for you to play against, and those drakes and still gank you by throwing that flamer vs back armor or Vector Striking you with Str 7. Not to mention if they brought Weapon Virus to the table, that will make it hard on your multi shot tanks.Double Drake- Again, this list simply does not have the firepower to down me reliably, since it invests so heavily in anti infantry firepower; Serpent's Shields are especially brutal here. Again, prioritise their anti tank and you win. If they're bringing Spawn you may want to down them first, but you're probably better off putting them at second priority and refusing the Spawn with deployment. I'd be inclined to take 2nd turn in objective missions.
-- Let me be real with you, you will not kill a single stormraven with Str 6. They also will only tickle the Dreadknights, while your Wraithguard can indeed bend those Dreadknights over if they get shot out of their tank then you won't have any left.GK Double Raven- This is actually potentially annoying, since the mass S6 struggles to down those flyers, but the Ravens aren't the real issue- it's the Dreadknights, although the Wraithguard are a really nice answer to them. Basically you down the Dreadknights and then go straight after the scoring GKSS base. Again, 2nd turn for objectives.
-- Yup, regular space marines and such have no real hope of beating you with the list as it currently stands.GK/SW/MeQ Mech- This is a pretty fair fight, although I think cover saves and superior ranges win the day here. 2nd turn for objectives
-- I semi agree, it really depends on where they drop, how you deploy, and if they are dropping termies. If they brought 3 Long fangs with missile they are most likley dropping 2+ serpents a turn, even with the jink saves.Pod Wolves- If it weren't for Serpent's Shield, this matchup would be really bad, but it's fine. I'm way more mobile and this is a foot army against my mass S6. I think my mobility puts it in my favour, but it's still a pretty fair game. I'd be looking to take 1st turn to get cover saves up to survive the initial drop.
-- I mostly agree, but if they bring a lot of long range barrage they can place the center of the marker on your back arc and then your sheilds are useless once you lose the serpents your "tempo" peters out.IG Mech- this is actually potentially really harsh, due to the sheer number of bodies they can put inside Chimeras. Orders make this a hard win, since I'll be rerolling my tasty cover saves. Not sure which turn I take, depends on mission and which allies they bring.
--DE Venom spam, yes you win, DE Raider spam, maybe not. But mostly you should have the advantage.DE Mech- I have mass S6. I crush them so hard it's not funny. Probably take 1st turn to deny the alpha, not that I'm terribly worried about it. Serpent's Shield ftw.
-- As you said if they brought any sort of cover busting shots then you can't beat them. Having a Rock list that loses to paper is not a good tourney list.Tau- there are multiple builds in this book, but their advantages against my list are common to them all- markerlights are potentially brutal against me. I put pathfinders and the largest sources of markerlights at top priority. 1st or second turn depends on the exact build, but generally second, unless they're doing something wierd like spam Skyrays.
-- You should be able to beat nids all the time on average, if the deamons brought Flying MC's...oh wait.. or Tzeentch deamons then it can be harder.Flying Circus (Nid or Daemon)- potentially harsh, depending on psychic powers, but still probably a fair fight- daemons have no ranged ability, so i think I win that through grounded tests and dakka. Tyranids are harsher, mostly by dint of having better troops and higher pressure- this is still probably a fair fight.
I'm putting together a Wraithknight right now, so I don't have time to put forth another list suggestion, but I think if you remove one serpent with the Wraithguard you can do something better with those 300+ points that will shore up your long range AT. If you can bring Barrage it will also help immensely.