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Autarch of Heresy
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Uh... I'm going to be blunt- This is getting really condescending. This isn't primary school, and being disappointed in substandard homework is a little odd.
-- I'm sorry you feel that way, I am trying to help you out here.

Wait, so you're telling me that for the low, low price of 740pts I too can have a vehicle that can't move, but shoots 1 TL Ignores Cover Tank Hunter Lascannon and two TL S8 AP3 (highly conditional) Ignores Cover Ordnance Barrages? And when this vehicle gets assaulted it not only can't protect it's occupants, but actually amplifies the damage inflicted on them?

And you think 275pts for DAs in a serpent is inefficient? This is the definition of inefficiency.

The reason I didn't see this 'synergy' is two fold-

a) It's not a synergy- It's a combo. There's a small but important difference you need to understand, I'll expand on that later.

b) It's so woefully inefficient that I didn't even consider it as a viable option. Compare it to any amount of firepower brought by pretty much any firepower unit in the game and you'll see how awful it is.
-- Lascannon is 2 Shot due to fast Shot. Highly Conditional? I suppose you mean about being in Area Terrain? If thats a problem you can switch the Shas'O to the Krakstorm side. How many Fortresses have you seen assaulted? You can just get out of the bunker and go to the battlements and your enemy just sits there watching you as you shoot them. 275 points is inefficient because you are spending so many points on substandard troops, its better to take those 65+ points and put them elsewhere, at least..IMO.
Good point on the combo, ill change future explanations to reflect that, I learned something today so thats +Rep for you.
As for considering it a options, this is what I am trying to teach you, if you can figure out what a opponent is doing at a glance it really cuts down on the surprises, if you don't consider a point because you think its dumb, and then get rolled by that dumb point, whose fault is that?

You don't have enough Kroot to manage this. Also, it's not just Deep Strikers you need to worry about, but pretty much any form of mech carrying guys with grenades- they'll zoom right up to your Fortress, jump out and gun down the kroot. Next turn they throw a bunch of grenades inside your fortress next turn, and then whatever was inside is dead (and you don't have your combo anymore)
-- Oh I think I do, 18 Kroot is a 38' line of denial, most lists are fairly one dimensional in how they arrive, its very easy to position your "shield" in the correct direction. As for the Skimmers and Jetbikes you "CAN" be correct, if you don't plan for it. You still need to place your models 1' from mine and I can still deny you a charge or even a location to disembark. Its also fine if they gun down the kroot, thats what they are there for, expendable bubble wrap. They also can only throw grenades and shoot Flamers inside of a fortress if there are Fire Points, and the Fortress only has one annex with fire points (hint, its not the Weapon annex's) so in your example the combo would still be going strong.

Wait, what? If you do that then you're not shooting one of the emplaced weapons next turn- only the commander is relentless and those guns are heavy... So your opponent cares even less?
--Normally I would use Dark Reapers since the change, but you like Fire Prisms and I was throwing together a list with both of our likes. Your point is valid, but only matters depending on what you are fighting. Only deploy out if they have a strong alpha like with 3-4+ drop pods or 1 turn deepstrikers such as Deathwing.

You didn't understand what I said at all. I was saying that the application of skill gives an equal increase in power to all units- so "You just need to use it well" is not a valid argument. If you apply good skill to a bad unit compared to applying good skill to a good unit, then the good unit is still always going to be more powerful. There's not magic point where a level of skill applied pays off more for one unit than another- a sub par unit is always sub par.

You haven't actually said why spamming is bad, you've just said that if you play well you can make bad units work, which is true, but irrelevant, and then posted some seriously non-competitive lists.

Secondly, this is not a lack of ability to discern synergy- you have presented no synergies. You have presented combos, and bad ones at that. Do you understand the difference?

A synergy is two elements working together to create greater advantage than the sum of the two elements would suggest. The important thing here is that the two units still need to be capable of working by themselves, but they are capable of creating advantage by working together.

An example of a synergy be something like "My Dire Avengers shoot up some marines and then my Striking Scorpions charge them"- Note that the Dire Avengers are still pretty good at shooting stuff and Striking Scorpions are pretty good at killing marines in combat, without requiring the support of each other, but they do generate advantage with unison.

A combo is a combination of elements used to create some effect, usually damage, but sometimes movement (as in the case of IC slingshotting. However, the difference between a combo and a synergy is that if any one of the elements fails, then the entire combo fails- the elements are dependent on each other. Your Fortress of Redemption is a prime example of this. If your Farseer doesn't get the ignores cover, then the power plummets. If I kill the unit manning the krakstorms (not hard, btw), the krakstorms stop shooting- I effectively 2-for-1 you, and I get a massive tempo advantage.

That's not to say that all combos are bad- if they're cheap and redundant enough then they can be pretty good. Examples of good combos are things like a Tau Iridium PENchip Commander on a Quad Gun, or PBS and Pinning weapons.
--- Spamming the serpents are fine, but Spamming Str 6 is not. If you are talking about my prior lists, its all about getting a feel of how you play, working to narrow it down. TBH your making it hard but I am persistant we can come up with something that suits both your tastes and "definition" of what is competitive. The ignores cover power is Icing on the cake, not the cake itself, it functions fine without it.
Well, there's too many variables there to really say, but-

My list is perfectly capable of beating your list; I would expect it to. Basically you ignore the fortress and focus on killing the mech. You can basically take the Lascannon out of the equation by focussing on the opposing flank. So long as I focus on the 1000pts than can actually hurt my army, I should win. Basically, I drop my Serpent Shields and look to down your Prisms as fast as possible with Ignores Cover. After that I probably start attacking your scoring, starting with the Jetbikes, and then finally I attack your fortress (mostly to kill the DA). Considering your lack of mobility, I'd probably take 1st turn- the only thing you have to contest is the Jetbikes, and I have the mobility to kill them, so that's no biggie.
-- You seem mighty confident with what you have posted. I wish I lived in your world where you can just say something and it happens. You are very correct in ignoring the fortress as it is a huge distraction, really though in this specific situation its dangerous to ignore the cover busting attacks it posses, since you are basically relying on cover to protect yourself. Lets take a look.

Ignore the fortress and focus on killing the Mech? How? I think you mean "if I let you" You as the opponent running the list you presented have absolutely no way to dictate the flow of battle even vs the sample list. How exactly are you going to kill the tanks when you don't have LOS to them, or if you do its only along one side of a Acute angle representation of LOS. Its not like I would just push everything out in the open and let you shoot it. Thats honestly laughable.

"you can basically take the las cannon out of the equation by focusing on the opposing flank", interesting way of not realizing you can deploy the fortress in such a way as to have a view of the entire board such as in a corner. Or maybe the huge tower isn't there and place along the very back, or maybe the weapon annex's have been switched. You can't hide from that gun using the fortress itself if your opponent is clever.

Basically, I drop my Serpent Shields and look to down your Prisms as fast as possible with Ignores Cover.
-- This is good, but again its entirely possible to limit the amount of serpents you are able to do this with on a per turn basis, and once you drop those shields you lose your own tanks, so I probably wouldn't open with it.

After that I probably start attacking your scoring, starting with the Jetbikes
-- How are you doing this again? If they are behind or in the fortress you are unable to do so. If I have them in reserve you are unable to do so. your list has no way to hurt them unless I put them in the open(i.e> if i let you).

and then finally I attack your fortress (mostly to kill the DA).
--All you have are 3 prisms (not counting the wraithguard since they will take 1-2 turns to get to me, and most likely would lose their transport after a turn) IF you go first and the list has not given itself a cover save, then yes you could easily damage them probably even destroy them. if night fighting is up they are immune to damage while both the Krakstorm and Lascannon can still shoot you...actually in this list I believe only the commander has night vision so then It would only be able to kill one Fire Prism (assuming It had LOS to it) Anyway, if you lose even just one Prism it drastically cuts your chances to actually destroy the bunkers fast enough since that is basically all you have for AT (hint you need more)

Considering your lack of mobility, I'd probably take 1st turn-
-- Only things that are not fast here are the Kroot and the infantry squads which are hanging out in the fortress(i.e. they are meant to be static), everything else is as fast as you. since the list would be using jetbike to squeak out a win then It would welcome the second turn.


the only thing you have to contest is the Jetbikes, and I have the mobility to kill them, so that's no biggie.
--This really only depends on how much damage the list would have inflicted on you, really can't tell at this juncture since you only brought 420 points capable of really hurting it.


Cronair- My list beats it so hard it it's not funny- they rely on S7 firepower, and I have the mobility to minimise their firepower on my AV12 hulls whilst I wait for them to disembark and kill their infantry. I'd probably take 2nd turn in objective missions.
-- Wow I am stunned, when did AV 12 become proof against TL 4-12 Str 7 shot volleys (not including Arc)? Where I'm from each one of those flyers would poof a serpent/prism per volley. You ONLY have 3 Hull Points and a 5+ jink save to protect those serpents. I don't think this fight is as easy as you make it out to be, especially since you will only get around 1 hit per 7 shot volley per serpent and even vs AV 10....ehhhh thats a real long shot. Also the Cron players really should ONLY disembark on turn 5, if he gets out sooner then he lost to you on purpose.

Double Drake- Again, this list simply does not have the firepower to down me reliably, since it invests so heavily in anti infantry firepower; Serpent's Shields are especially brutal here. Again, prioritise their anti tank and you win. If they're bringing Spawn you may want to down them first, but you're probably better off putting them at second priority and refusing the Spawn with deployment. I'd be inclined to take 2nd turn in objective missions.
-- 2 Drakes are only like 350 points (unless you mean double force org 6 Drakes, see below). That is still 1500 points for you to play against, and those drakes and still gank you by throwing that flamer vs back armor or Vector Striking you with Str 7. Not to mention if they brought Weapon Virus to the table, that will make it hard on your multi shot tanks.

GK Double Raven- This is actually potentially annoying, since the mass S6 struggles to down those flyers, but the Ravens aren't the real issue- it's the Dreadknights, although the Wraithguard are a really nice answer to them. Basically you down the Dreadknights and then go straight after the scoring GKSS base. Again, 2nd turn for objectives.
-- Let me be real with you, you will not kill a single stormraven with Str 6. They also will only tickle the Dreadknights, while your Wraithguard can indeed bend those Dreadknights over if they get shot out of their tank then you won't have any left.

GK/SW/MeQ Mech- This is a pretty fair fight, although I think cover saves and superior ranges win the day here. 2nd turn for objectives
-- Yup, regular space marines and such have no real hope of beating you with the list as it currently stands.

Pod Wolves- If it weren't for Serpent's Shield, this matchup would be really bad, but it's fine. I'm way more mobile and this is a foot army against my mass S6. I think my mobility puts it in my favour, but it's still a pretty fair game. I'd be looking to take 1st turn to get cover saves up to survive the initial drop.
-- I semi agree, it really depends on where they drop, how you deploy, and if they are dropping termies. If they brought 3 Long fangs with missile they are most likley dropping 2+ serpents a turn, even with the jink saves.

IG Mech- this is actually potentially really harsh, due to the sheer number of bodies they can put inside Chimeras. Orders make this a hard win, since I'll be rerolling my tasty cover saves. Not sure which turn I take, depends on mission and which allies they bring.
-- I mostly agree, but if they bring a lot of long range barrage they can place the center of the marker on your back arc and then your sheilds are useless once you lose the serpents your "tempo" peters out.

DE Mech- I have mass S6. I crush them so hard it's not funny. Probably take 1st turn to deny the alpha, not that I'm terribly worried about it. Serpent's Shield ftw.
--DE Venom spam, yes you win, DE Raider spam, maybe not. But mostly you should have the advantage.

Tau- there are multiple builds in this book, but their advantages against my list are common to them all- markerlights are potentially brutal against me. I put pathfinders and the largest sources of markerlights at top priority. 1st or second turn depends on the exact build, but generally second, unless they're doing something wierd like spam Skyrays.
-- As you said if they brought any sort of cover busting shots then you can't beat them. Having a Rock list that loses to paper is not a good tourney list.

Flying Circus (Nid or Daemon)- potentially harsh, depending on psychic powers, but still probably a fair fight- daemons have no ranged ability, so i think I win that through grounded tests and dakka. Tyranids are harsher, mostly by dint of having better troops and higher pressure- this is still probably a fair fight.
-- You should be able to beat nids all the time on average, if the deamons brought Flying MC's...oh wait.. or Tzeentch deamons then it can be harder.


-----

I'm putting together a Wraithknight right now, so I don't have time to put forth another list suggestion, but I think if you remove one serpent with the Wraithguard you can do something better with those 300+ points that will shore up your long range AT. If you can bring Barrage it will also help immensely.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Over confidence is the key to your demise :)
Seriously though I do like the list although ragewind brings up some good points.
side note I reckon my all bike list would have a good shot at all these lists
It's not overconfidence when it's totally justified. The lists I run, and the lists in my playtest gauntlet would all destroy the list ragewind posted on page one.

I feel an all bike list is perfectly viable as well, and would have a reasonable (if not amazing) matchup against my list.

However, what won't work is some awful mish-mash of the two archetypes

-- Lascannon is 2 Shot due to fast Shot. Highly Conditional? I suppose you mean about being in Area Terrain? If thats a problem you can switch the Shas'O to the Krakstorm side. How many Fortresses have you seen assaulted? You can just get out of the bunker and go to the battlements and your enemy just sits there watching you as you shoot them.
I've seen several Fortresses be assaulted; it's the best way to deal with them.

You run up to it and throw a bunch of grenades inside. Kraks give you D6 S6 hits for each model assaulting whereas frags give 2D6 S4 per model on the unit inside. 5 MEQ gives either 5 D6 S6 or 10D6 S4 hits on whatever poor unit is manning those guns... See what the problem is?

If you go to the battlements, then a) you moved, so the krakstorm doesn't fire and b) you're outside of the bunker so I just shoot you? You're Eldar, my guns have better range than yours, as a general rule. Wait, can you even fire the krakstorm if you're outside the bunker? I can't remember whether it stipulates that an 'embarked model' has to fire it or not.

275 points is inefficient because you are spending so many points on substandard troops, its better to take those 65+ points and put them elsewhere, at least..IMO.
You misunderstand, I am pointing out that your theoretical list is hypocritical, because you accuse me of being inefficient, and then proceed to suggest what is probably the most inefficient unit I've seen outside of actual contests to see how stupidly expensive something is.

Good point on the combo, ill change future explanations to reflect that, I learned something today so thats +Rep for you.
As for considering it a options, this is what I am trying to teach you, if you can figure out what a opponent is doing at a glance it really cuts down on the surprises, if you don't consider a point because you think its dumb, and then get rolled by that dumb point, whose fault is that?
Mine, but as soon as they deploy I can see what they're doing, so I won't get rolled...

Telling what someone is trying to do from a list is completely different from trying to see what they do as they deploy.

-- Oh I think I do, 18 Kroot is a 38' line of denial, most lists are fairly one dimensional in how they arrive, its very easy to position your "shield" in the correct direction. As for the Skimmers and Jetbikes you "CAN" be correct, if you don't plan for it. You still need to place your models 1' from mine and I can still deny you a charge or even a location to disembark. Its also fine if they gun down the kroot, thats what they are there for, expendable bubble wrap. They also can only throw grenades and shoot Flamers inside of a fortress if there are Fire Points, and the Fortress only has one annex with fire points (hint, its not the Weapon annex's) so in your example the combo would still be going strong.
Again, I'm pointing out that the kroot eat a bunch of bolters on the turn they disembark. Your Krakstorm maybe kills 5 MeQ and a rhino (because I combat squadded), and then next turn I assault because your kroot wall is dead.

Hmm? I thought it had little slit things in the annexe you can throw stuff in? That's how I've seen most people handling it.

Regardless, it's still easy to ignore, and the damage table is incredibly punishing for the units inside.

--Normally I would use Dark Reapers since the change, but you like Fire Prisms and I was throwing together a list with both of our likes. Your point is valid, but only matters depending on what you are fighting. Only deploy out if they have a strong alpha like with 3-4+ drop pods or 1 turn deepstrikers such as Deathwing.
Wait, what? You want to deploy Eldar troops outside of the Fortress when they have pods?

They don't even have to attack the fortress anymore, they just drop down turn 1 and blow up you units before they go inside.

--- Spamming the serpents are fine, but Spamming Str 6 is not. If you are talking about my prior lists, its all about getting a feel of how you play, working to narrow it down. TBH your making it hard but I am persistant we can come up with something that suits both your tastes and "definition" of what is competitive. The ignores cover power is Icing on the cake, not the cake itself, it functions fine without it.
Spamming S6 is perfectly fine- I showed you the numbers already against flyers, you should be able to tell that those already OK numbers get drastically better against ground targets.

And it's not like my only firepower is S6- I have S9 Lance Prisms, and S10 Wraithguard if I need to down higher AVs, and if I feel I can afford to I have the option of dropping the Serpent's Shields for high volume S7.

Not to mention this list simply isn't concerned by many vehicles that are tougher than AV12- I'm too fast for Land Raiders to catch, I have the mobility to get side armour on Predators and most Leman Russ Variants don't phase mass mech. Really, the only concerning things are probably hammerheads and annihilation barges, The former are a real issue, but I already admitted Tau are harsh, and the latter are pretty easily dealt with by lances- and after that pen goes through, S6 turns back on.

Ignore the fortress and focus on killing the Mech? How? I think you mean "if I let you" You as the opponent running the list you presented have absolutely no way to dictate the flow of battle even vs the sample list. How exactly are you going to kill the tanks when you don't have LOS to them, or if you do its only along one side of a Acute angle representation of LOS. Its not like I would just push everything out in the open and let you shoot it. Thats honestly laughable.
Uh... I move faster than you do. How do the tanks hurt me when they don't have LOS to me? Or are you saying that the Fortress does all the work? Because it doesn't.

Is your answer seriously "lol I hide behind my fortress and hope this piece of crap makes up for the rest of my army not engaging."?

If you aren't engaging me then I AM dictating flow. You need LoS to hurt me, so if you're dealing with me then I can deal with you.

"you can basically take the las cannon out of the equation by focusing on the opposing flank", interesting way of not realizing you can deploy the fortress in such a way as to have a view of the entire board such as in a corner. Or maybe the huge tower isn't there and place along the very back, or maybe the weapon annex's have been switched. You can't hide from that gun using the fortress itself if your opponent is clever.
Uuh... I've never seen anyone get away with trying to put a fortress down except in the way that actually makes it fit together. I've seen people try, and the TO invariably tells them to set it up so that it actually looks like a bunker. In fact, if you're changing the model, then there's cause for claiming modelling for advantage. Basically that giant tower is always in the middle.

So you can totally hide from it under tournament conditions. If you're in a corner, then you're not being terribly effective at hiding things, aren't you, since I can basically just attack the fortress essentially placing my stuff at the whichever annexe you point towards the centre. If you don't point towards the centre, then you're pretty much deploying along a table edge, and aren't hiding anything- so what was the point of bringing the fortress again?

-- How are you doing this again? If they are behind or in the fortress you are unable to do so. If I have them in reserve you are unable to do so. your list has no way to hurt them unless I put them in the open(i.e> if i let you).
If they're in reserve of course I don't target them, that's implied.

You seem to completely neglect the speed at which my list moves- I can move faster than your bikes, and as fast as your mech. If I want to see your stuff, I will get there. The fortress doesn't do anything to stop my skimmers from just moving over it.

--All you have are 3 prisms (not counting the wraithguard since they will take 1-2 turns to get to me, and most likely would lose their transport after a turn)
How? Do you actually understand how unlikely you are to demech me, even if you do get the ignores cover power?

IF you go first and the list has not given itself a cover save, then yes you could easily damage them probably even destroy them. if night fighting is up they are immune to damage while both the Krakstorm and Lascannon can still shoot you...actually in this list I believe only the commander has night vision so then It would only be able to kill one Fire Prism (assuming It had LOS to it) Anyway, if you lose even just one Prism it drastically cuts your chances to actually destroy the bunkers fast enough since that is basically all you have for AT (hint you need more)
The fortress doesn't just autokill a tank a turn. To start with, you can't guarantee ignores cover on all guns (IIRC you needed the farseer to make the krakstorm ignore cover?) Even then, you're assuming that basically all your shots go through, which is far from what's likely to happen.

You really don't have that much more AT than I do, since your dragons are committed to manning the fortress. The krakstorm and lascannon don't really increase your AT that much,and I still have the wraithguard as answers.

Since the fortress comes last, the Wraithguard can easily get in range, so Night Fight is not an issue.

-- Only things that are not fast here are the Kroot and the infantry squads which are hanging out in the fortress(i.e. they are meant to be static), everything else is as fast as you. since the list would be using jetbike to squeak out a win then It would welcome the second turn.
Hence I already stated that your 6 bikes are second priority?

--This really only depends on how much damage the list would have inflicted on you, really can't tell at this juncture since you only brought 420 points capable of really hurting it.
I can tell you right now, it won't do much.

-- Wow I am stunned, when did AV 12 become proof against TL 4-12 Str 7 shot volleys (not including Arc)? Where I'm from each one of those flyers would poof a serpent/prism per volley. You ONLY have 3 Hull Points and a 5+ jink save to protect those serpents. I don't think this fight is as easy as you make it out to be, especially since you will only get around 1 hit per 7 shot volley per serpent and even vs AV 10....ehhhh thats a real long shot. Also the Cron players really should ONLY disembark on turn 5, if he gets out sooner then he lost to you on purpose.
"5+ jink save to protect those serpents"- WHAT?!

Have you even read the new codex?

Do you know what all those "Holo-Field" upgrades do?

Every Serpent has a 4+ Jink save. 3+ when I move flat out.

A Night Scythe averages 5-6 hits (I think it's actually like 5.3333 but for the sake of argument, lets assume 6 hits)

That leads to 6*(1/3)= 2 pens/glances. Then I take my 4+ cover save. 1 pen/glance. If I moved flat out, (which I will on the turn before they arrive) then that goes down to 0.666666667 pens/glances. Serpent's Shield makes any Pens into glances.

They don't even get close to poofing a serpent/prism per flyer per volley. Maybe if the whole army shoots, then sure, they might down one, but I actually down their planes at a similar rate (I already did the maths- go back and look at it)- and they can't even guarantee all their stuff is on the table to be shooting me all the time.

Seriously, do you ever do the maths to at least give a rough idea of the probability of certain things happening? Because you've said a number of things I've been able to summarily curbstomp with some basic arithmetic.

-- 2 Drakes are only like 350 points (unless you mean double force org 6 Drakes, see below). That is still 1500 points for you to play against, and those drakes and still gank you by throwing that flamer vs back armor or Vector Striking you with Str 7. Not to mention if they brought Weapon Virus to the table, that will make it hard on your multi shot tanks.
1500pts that still struggles to deal with what I'm bringing. These lists either rely on Havocs or Obliterators to deal with tanks- the former is easy to kill, the latter bounces of my cover. Drakes ignoring cover with Vector Strikes is annoying, but not that damaging- they do something like 0.666667 glances with a Vector Strike, and 0.5 with the flamer- so maybe they strip a hullpoint.

-- Let me be real with you, you will not kill a single stormraven with Str 6. They also will only tickle the Dreadknights, while your Wraithguard can indeed bend those Dreadknights over if they get shot out of their tank then you won't have any left.
Actually, the S6 drops a dreadknight and change by themselves, and then I still have my wraithguard. Getting shot out of my tank is no issue with mad cover, and the fact that their primary AT is 24" range. Not to mention I'm a GK player- i just don't see myself losing to my own army without a significant difference in skill or luck.

-- I semi agree, it really depends on where they drop, how you deploy, and if they are dropping termies. If they brought 3 Long fangs with missile they are most likley dropping 2+ serpents a turn, even with the jink saves.
Seriously, math it out. They don't drop 2+ Serpents per turn, even without Jink- they maybe kill one. And then I zoom away and their foot list is committed and out of range to hurt me.

-- I mostly agree, but if they bring a lot of long range barrage they can place the center of the marker on your back arc and then your sheilds are useless once you lose the serpents your "tempo" peters out.
Actually, Barrages always hit vehicles on side armour, even if they go behind them, Serpent's Shield is up.

--DE Venom spam, yes you win, DE Raider spam, maybe not. But mostly you should have the advantage.
Seems fair.

-- As you said if they brought any sort of cover busting shots then you can't beat them. Having a Rock list that loses to paper is not a good tourney list.
So one bad matchup invalidates a list?

If so, then there is no such thing as a good tourney list. Basically everything in the metagame has it's own counter, this isn't the same as 5th edition. That's not to say the game is 100% RPS, but you have to expect your lists to have at least some uphill games.

-- You should be able to beat nids all the time on average, if the deamons brought Flying MC's...oh wait.. or Tzeentch deamons then it can be harder.
Have you actually played 'Nid Circus? Because 4 T7-9 FMCs is pretty harsh, especially when backed up by Tervigons and 'Gants- It's a seriously relevant list and worth being able to beat.

Same with Daemon Circus.

When you say "Tzeentch Daemons", I hope you don't mean Flamer/Screamer spam, because they fixed that broken shit in the new codex- that abomination of a White Dwarf is no longer in effect. It's not an army anymore. If it were still an army, I wouldn't be posting here- I'd be painting some Screamers and Flamers.

If you meant Tzeentch Flying Monstrous Creatures, then yeah, that's what Daemon Circus is. It's basically the only decent list they have left.

I'm putting together a Wraithknight right now, so I don't have time to put forth another list suggestion, but I think if you remove one serpent with the Wraithguard you can do something better with those 300+ points that will shore up your long range AT. If you can bring Barrage it will also help immensely.
Look, I get that you're trying to help here, and I am immensely grateful for your time, but frankly I think this conversation has run its course.

I just don't see a situation were either one of us is going to see eye to eye. I'm going to suggest we end this here, because we're both bashing our heads against a brick wall to now avail- and I'd hate to waste your time that could be spent painting your Wraithknight, and frankly I have other stuff to do. If you really want to post again, feel free, but I'm probably not going to give it more than a cursory glance and a token reply- and I know you don't want to put effort in just to have me give a glib response.

Again, thanks for your time, effort and perseverance, as I can clearly tell that you are trying to help me. Even though I don't agree with you, I still value your input and time- I'd rather that we both stop wasting our time on a pointless endeavour.
 

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Alrighty no problem if you want to end it that’s fine, I won't go into any reply’s except that a barrage weapon rolls armor pen vs the side armor, but nothing stops the direction of the shot coming from the center hole. So if a barrage lands behind the serpent the shot still counts as coming from the back arc, even though the armor pen is automatically vs the AV 12 of the side armor as opposed to the AV 10 of the back armor., also yes one hard
Counter is not the Hallmark of a balanced list.
I am seriously interested in how the list as you present it performs, if possible I'd like you to PM me at a later date with a battle report or two, preferably with pics/video. To help congeal an idea for you I have three quick sample lists, I think the first one is more your type.

Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140

Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65

Guardians x20 235
Warlock, Bright Lance x2

Guardians x10 135
Warlock, Bright Lance
Farseer 100
Aegis Defense Line 100
Quad Gun

1830--- Self explanatory

Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140

Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65
Wave Serpent 145
DA's 65

Crimson Hunter 160
Crimson Hunter 160
Crimson Hunter 160

Farseer 100

1840--- Self explanatory

Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140
Fire Prism 140

Guardian Defenders 135
Warlock, Bright lance
Wave Serpent 145

Guardian Defenders 135
Warlock, Bright lance
Wave Serpent 145

Guardian Defenders 135
Warlock, Bright lance
Wave Serpent 145

Guardian Defenders 135
Warlock, Bright lance
Wave Serpent 145

Spirit Seer 70
Wraithguard x7 224

1834—Guardians deploy separately from the serpents.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
The third list is actually pretty much what I'm considering, still just not sure between Guardians and DAs, slight tweaks but essentially that.

I know I called it quits, but you actually have a rules interaction wrong- On Barrage

From the Barrage rules- "Hits against vehicle are always resolved against side armour"

Serpent's Shield- "Whilst the shield is active, all penetrating hits inflicted against the Wave Serpent's front and side armour are downgraded to glancing hits on a 2+"

So barrage weapons always hit vehicles on side armour. Any hits on a serpent's side armour are subject to the serpent shield. Hence, the only bonus barrage gets from the centre of the blast rule is determining cover, but since the Serpent generates its own cover save, that is moot.

Hardly an awesome counter.

EDIT: On your interest in how it goes, if I remember I'll gladly PM you with results, but I'm not planning on taking this list anywhere till January, so it might be a while, and I'll probably forget. Regardless, I think we'll see this return as a major archetype, so I wouldn't be suprised to see this turn up at other events under different pilots.
 

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The third list is actually pretty much what I'm considering, still just not sure between Guardians and DAs, slight tweaks but essentially that.

I know I called it quits, but you actually have a rules interaction wrong- On Barrage

From the Barrage rules- "Hits against vehicle are always resolved against side armour"

Serpent's Shield- "Whilst the shield is active, all penetrating hits inflicted against the Wave Serpent's front and side armour are downgraded to glancing hits on a 2+"

So barrage weapons always hit vehicles on side armour. Any hits on a serpent's side armour are subject to the serpent shield. Hence, the only bonus barrage gets from the centre of the blast rule is determining cover, but since the Serpent generates its own cover save, that is moot.

Hardly an awesome counter.

EDIT: On your interest in how it goes, if I remember I'll gladly PM you with results, but I'm not planning on taking this list anywhere till January, so it might be a while, and I'll probably forget. Regardless, I think we'll see this return as a major archetype, so I wouldn't be suprised to see this turn up at other events under different pilots.
Yea your right about the barrage, I was misremembering the actual rule from the serpent shield and thought it was worded slightly different. I'd give you a little more rep but the system won't allow me to do so until I spread it around a bit more.

As an aside I have been play testing this list after your initial post and I don't think you can really do much better. It fills all the holes in your list and has a lot more firepower overall. So far its tabled Dark Angels, Dark Angels/Tau double bomb, Blood Angels, and Drop pod Wolves. Now that I type that out it doesn't sound very impressive since its just a bunch of marines :blush:

1848

Riptide 210 (SMS seems to be the best option)
Ion Accel, Smart Missile System//Fusion Blaster, Interceptor, Skyfire
Commander 142 (Missile Pods seem to be the best option)
Missile Pod x2//Plasma x2, Interceptor, Skyfire, Neuroweb jammer
Fire Warriors 54
Pulse Carbines
Devilfish 95
Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Burst Cannon
Skyray 100
Smart Missile System, Networked Marker Lights, Seeker Missiles x6

Wave Serpent 145 (after the 5th game i'm leaning towards the TL Cannon)
Scatter Laser//Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields
Wave Serpent 145 (after the 5th game i'm leaning towards the TL Cannon)
Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields
Wraithguard 160
Wraithcannons
Wraithguard 160 (if playing 2k give this unit all flamers)
Wraithcannons//D-Scythe
WindRider Jetbikes 61
Shuriken Cannon
WindRider Jetbikes 61
Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Seer 70 (Warlord) (Shard is optional, if playing 2k add a Farseer as well)
Shard of Anaris
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields, Prism Cannon
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields, Prism Cannon
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields, Prism Cannon

Skyshield Landing Pad 75 (this prevents Tau from raping you, also give you durability vs Pod/Bomb lists and other cover busting attacks)

@ 2k +1 Farseer, + D-Scythes x5
 

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A lot of posts here are very "Wall 'o' Text crits you for 5000dmg. You Die." so I'll just quickly throw in my few cents -

1. Super combinations of doom such as "Reaper Exarch plus whatever" rarely survive contact with a competent enemy commander. For that reason I'll run more men over more toys every day of the week.

2. Eldar can do Hybrid, especially with the new codex. It's more than viable to bring Jetbikes in support of your tanks. The BS4 and pseudo-rending means 6 Jetbikes with 2 cannons can actually bring some pain for ~120pts instead of just dying ineffectually like they used to. They make a viable alternative to DAVU units and compete with Wraith units for slots, depending on what holes you have in your list (primarily speed vs resilience and torrent vs quality) that need filling.

3. I personally don't rate Farseers. I thought I would, and I'd like to, but 50% of their Discipline is junk. In a Mechdar list, considering they can't cast out of transports any more, I'd take a Spiritseer/Autarch combo any time for the reserves manipulation, flexibility, and unit buffs.

4. You say in your first post that you can "drop the shields if you need to". I'd put that the other way round, personally. I almost never have my shields up. 2-7 S7 shots Twin Linked ignoring cover is far, far too good to not be using it at almost every opportunity, especially when you're all packing 4++ against hits already.

Lastly, the third list presented has no effective anti-air, which may or may not be a consideration depending on who you normally play.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I was hoping you'd comment, I recognise you from the 3++ comments. Same guy, right?

1. Super combinations of doom such as "Reaper Exarch plus whatever" rarely survive contact with a competent enemy commander. For that reason I'll run more men over more toys every day of the week.
Agreed, hence I was arguing against them.

2. Eldar can do Hybrid, especially with the new codex. It's more than viable to bring Jetbikes in support of your tanks. The BS4 and pseudo-rending means 6 Jetbikes with 2 cannons can actually bring some pain for ~120pts instead of just dying ineffectually like they used to. They make a viable alternative to DAVU units and compete with Wraith units for slots, depending on what holes you have in your list (primarily speed vs resilience and torrent vs quality) that need filling.
True, but that requires a hybrid build, and simply rocking Jetbikes in a mech build does not make Hybrid, it makes for a weaker mech list- you need more boots on the ground (probably some combination of Spiders/Hawks, and that's not what I was looking for.

Do you think that pure mech is viable? Because where I'm standing, I'm pretty confident it is- Wave Serpents are just so good.

3. I personally don't rate Farseers. I thought I would, and I'd like to, but 50% of their Discipline is junk. In a Mechdar list, considering they can't cast out of transports any more, I'd take a Spiritseer/Autarch combo any time for the reserves manipulation, flexibility, and unit buffs.
I agree with you about 75% here. Farseers are definitely bad in a mech army, absolutely no arguments there.

I also agree that 50% of Runes of Fate is trash (actually more the 50%, I only really rate Fortune and Doom, and Guide). However, Farseers can also take Divination, which is pretty insane. I'd envision rolling powers to be something like:

Roll of Runes of Fate. If you get Doom or Fortune, you can consider rolling again on this table. If not, swap for Guide, and then roll the rest of your powers on divination.

So basically at worst you can get a ML3 Psyker with Guide + 2 Divination powers, for a very good price. Not being able to cast out of a vehicle is lame, hence he's bad in mech, but in a hybrid or foot list (or as an ally to Tau), he's pretty great. Better than an Autarch at least.

4. You say in your first post that you can "drop the shields if you need to". I'd put that the other way round, personally. I almost never have my shields up. 2-7 S7 shots Twin Linked ignoring cover is far, far too good to not be using it at almost every opportunity, especially when you're all packing 4++ against hits already.
Hmm... I think the immunity to suppression and explosion is too good to give up every time, especially if they're likely to penetrate you. If they can't stun or immobilise you, then that awesome cover save is always up. I guess it depends on the opponent, but especially if they bring a lot of quality fire (Hammerheads and Vendettas come to mind) then I think the shield is better.

Lastly, the third list presented has no effective anti-air, which may or may not be a consideration depending on who you normally play.
I've already run the maths on 5 Serpents downing various kinds of plane in this thread, the long and short of it is that they generally hullpoint 2 AV11 planes and 3 AV10 ones- and I have the mobility to get into rear armour 10. There aren't really any flyers out there which are terribly concerning to this list anyways, the worst would be like 3 Vendettas, which actually only take a couple of hullpoints off in one volley thanks to cover, and then I can just move so that they either have to hover or fly over me next turn.
 

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I was hoping you'd comment, I recognise you from the 3++ comments. Same guy, right?
Yup, that's me!

Agreed, hence I was arguing against them.
Yup, and me with you! :)

True, but that requires a hybrid build, and simply rocking Jetbikes in a mech build does not make Hybrid, it makes for a weaker mech list- you need more boots on the ground (probably some combination of Spiders/Hawks, and that's not what I was looking for.
I disagree that adding Jetbikes makes an otherwise mech army weaker. ~120pts buys you 6 Marine equivalents with two heavy weapons that are much faster and more flexible. Jetbikes can move 48" and score at the end of that turn - Serpents cannot. This allows you to refuse flank right up until the end of the game, or react faster to developments.

Do you think that pure mech is viable? Because where I'm standing, I'm pretty confident it is- Wave Serpents are just so good.
It's viable, but I don't think it's the strongest list our codex can put out. I think 6th has seen the death of pure spam lists, and that hybrid is the way forward. Other units in our codex simply add more to our list once you've taken enough hulls to check that particular box.

Roll of Runes of Fate. If you get Doom or Fortune, you can consider rolling again on this table. If not, swap for Guide, and then roll the rest of your powers on divination.

So basically at worst you can get a ML3 Psyker with Guide + 2 Divination powers, for a very good price. Not being able to cast out of a vehicle is lame, hence he's bad in mech, but in a hybrid or foot list (or as an ally to Tau), he's pretty great. Better than an Autarch at least.
It depends entirely on your list, I think. I run Scatters in every available slot, so paying 100pts for two lots of Guide doesn't help me as much as the Reserves manipulation/jetbike cleaner of the Autarch or the scoring Wraithguard/blades of the SpSeer. On the other hand, someone who runs more Bright Lances will get better mileage out of the twin linking of Guide. I haven't examined any ally builds yet, but obviously Tau benefit exceptionally well from twin linking.

Hmm... I think the immunity to suppression and explosion is too good to give up every time, especially if they're likely to penetrate you. If they can't stun or immobilise you, then that awesome cover save is always up. I guess it depends on the opponent, but especially if they bring a lot of quality fire (Hammerheads and Vendettas come to mind) then I think the shield is better.
I'd rather be putting out more firepower in a bid to reduce incoming fire than rely on a defensive ability - "the best defence..." and all that. Using the S7 to destroy/suppress enemy units that are a threat to you is more effective in my book. Of course if you're about to drive in front of meltaguns or something then there are exceptions to this! :)

I've already run the maths on 5 Serpents downing various kinds of plane in this thread, the long and short of it is that they generally hullpoint 2 AV11 planes and 3 AV10 ones- and I have the mobility to get into rear armour 10. There aren't really any flyers out there which are terribly concerning to this list anyways, the worst would be like 3 Vendettas, which actually only take a couple of hullpoints off in one volley thanks to cover, and then I can just move so that they either have to hover or fly over me next turn.
I'd say Scythes are a bigger threat than Vendettas tbh, they do a great job of HPing you to death even without shields with their 4.4 S7 hits per flyer on top of the rest of the army, and it's not uncommmon to see multiples of them. It's really too hypothetical to offer counter-arguments back and forth, but I'd have thought that capable generals would be placing their flyers so that if you angle for rear shots they'll punish you in turn with the rest of their guns. Can't really mathhammer or predict that though, so... :)
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I disagree that adding Jetbikes makes an otherwise mech army weaker. ~120pts buys you 6 Marine equivalents with two heavy weapons that are much faster and more flexible. Jetbikes can move 48" and score at the end of that turn - Serpents cannot. This allows you to refuse flank right up until the end of the game, or react faster to developments.
A reasonable point, but I can't help but feel that Eldar tanks are too expensive to achieve saturation without spamming them. That said, I could see the benefit in dropping a Dire Avenger squad for 2x6 Jetbikes with double shuriken cannons. I don't think I'd go any lower than that on the mech count than that though, and I'm still not sold on it.

It's viable, but I don't think it's the strongest list our codex can put out. I think 6th has seen the death of pure spam lists, and that hybrid is the way forward. Other units in our codex simply add more to our list once you've taken enough hulls to check that particular box.
I would disagree with 6th killing spam, especially considering how overpowered flyers are, it's just changed the type of units you need to spam.

Tbh, I kinda can't help but feel there's only really two decent Eldar lists- Hybrid and mech- and I don't really see a huge difference in power between the two.

It depends entirely on your list, I think. I run Scatters in every available slot, so paying 100pts for two lots of Guide doesn't help me as much as the Reserves manipulation/jetbike cleaner of the Autarch or the scoring Wraithguard/blades of the SpSeer. On the other hand, someone who runs more Bright Lances will get better mileage out of the twin linking of Guide. I haven't examined any ally builds yet, but obviously Tau benefit exceptionally well from twin linking.
I can agree with this. Scatters do kinda make them a moot point in pure Eldar, but as soon as you bring Eldar as an allied detachment to a battle brother it's gotta be Farseer all the way- especially for DE and Tau.

I'd rather be putting out more firepower in a bid to reduce incoming fire than rely on a defensive ability - "the best defence..." and all that. Using the S7 to destroy/suppress enemy units that are a threat to you is more effective in my book. Of course if you're about to drive in front of meltaguns or something then there are exceptions to this! :)
Hmm... I guess it depends on the matchup and game state, so it seems a bit pointless to argue abstract possibilities. Good points though. It's a retardedly good piece of kit in either mode; that I can agree on.

I'd say Scythes are a bigger threat than Vendettas tbh, they do a great job of HPing you to death even without shields with their 4.4 S7 hits per flyer on top of the rest of the army, and it's not uncommmon to see multiples of them. It's really too hypothetical to offer counter-arguments back and forth, but I'd have thought that capable generals would be placing their flyers so that if you angle for rear shots they'll punish you in turn with the rest of their guns. Can't really mathhammer or predict that though, so... :)
Actually, each individual scythe only manages 1 HP per turn after Jink
(on average of course), so they're just not as effective against Eldar mech as people think, and your opponent is highly unlikely to have them all on the table at the same time- and you can mitigate their effectiveness with your own speed.

Frankly, the scariest thing in the Necron list is probably the Annihilation Barges, purely because they're always shooting and are harder to crack using S6- but then that's why we bring lances.

A reasonable point on the opponent defending their rear arcs, but this is really more of a "Ignore the flyers" list, that has the firepower to down them if necessary, than the other way around
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I've tweaked the list slightly, now thinking of something along the lines of:

Spiritseer

10 Guardians with Bright Lance, Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields
10 Guardians with Bright Lance, Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields
10 Guardians with Bright Lance, Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields
5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields

Fire Prism with Holo-Fields
Fire Prism with Holo-Fields

2 War Walkers, 1 with Scatter Laser+Shuriken Cannon, 1 with 2 Shuriken Cannons

So basically I just take cheaper troops in order to access more S6 in the War Walkers. Before anyone points it out, yes, I am aware that the single Scatter Laser on the Walkers does not TL the whole squad, it's there purely because I had 5pts left and figured +1 shot and TL on three other shots is a steal.

I'm not sure on whether War Walkers are better than Vypers at this stage, but I figure that Battle Focus and Scout (or more accurately, Outflank options) is probably tipping the WW over the edge as better, as it lets them somewhat mitigate their fragility. I really wish I had the points to give them Scatter Lasers and Starcannons, but am not sure where to drop the points- I considered dropping the Bright Lances, but I'm reluctant to drop the lance weapons just to spam more S6.
 

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I'd suggest you combine the 30 guardians into 2x20 guardians instead of 3x10. I know this drops a BL and WS, but I'd rather have the extra shots/survivability of bigger groups. Then with the savings you can add a Viper or two so that you have some Fast Attack for those missions they are scoring for.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Hmm... The issue with that is that then you a)lose a serpent, which is the reason we're bringing infantry in the 1st place b) you lose survivability, because now instead of being in silly hard to kill tanks, you're outside of them and relying on cover. Maybe if you brought Warlocks? But then you're losing firepower. You have an interesting idea, but I think it might be better to just hide in cars- although it's worth testing.
 

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I think you can drop Holofields on a Serpent or two in order to access Starcannons and another Scatter. Just use the ones with Fields more aggressively so they get targeted instead - i.e. the Wraith carrying ones.

In fact if you dropped all the fields bar the Prism ones you could get a third walker in there.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I think you can drop Holofields on a Serpent or two in order to access Starcannons and another Scatter. Just use the ones with Fields more aggressively so they get targeted instead - i.e. the Wraith carrying ones.

In fact if you dropped all the fields bar the Prism ones you could get a third walker in there.
This is an interesting idea, although I think I'd drop Chin Cannons before Holo-Fields (If I were going for the 3rd Walker), since I envision myself moving 12" a fair amount of the time, and after seeing the havoc that can be wreaked by the Serpent Shield-Gun, I think I'd rather be shooting that than a Cannon. On top of that the 4+ cover is so tasty, although dropping the shields on guardian Serpents is definitely a consideration. Thoughts on Cannons vs Fields?
 

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I think it's personal playstyle - I'm a very aggressive player in my tactics, going for early turn firepower dominance leading into an easy late game, so I'd personally run lots of cannons and no fields (for the sake of more firepower or bodies) but if you play a more cautious, attrition based style then you'll get more mileage out of fields. I don't really think there's a serious discrepancy in effectiveness/competitiveness between the two.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Yeah, fair call. I think I need to test it in order to figure out how much I value moving 12" every turn, which will pretty much determine whether I want fields or not.
 
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