Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I noticed the other day that of the armies I haven't spread the love to as of late, the Grey Knights were high on the list. Tossed this together to have a go in some upcoming games:

HQ: 175
Brother-Captain
Incinerator, nemesis force halberd, rad grenades
Simple setup, and while I realize I could take the grand master for a few points more I really don't want to (grand strategy is nice and all, but theres the matter of finding the points.)

Troops: 765
Grey Knight Strike Squad
5x Additional grey knights, 2x psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x hammer
Rhino

Grey Knight Strike Squad
5x Additional grey knights, 2x psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x hammer
Rhino
The mainstay of the list, I can either keep them together and take pot shots out of the rhino or split into pairs and run that way (my preference is to stay together but you never know when the game might call for it.)

Not sure if I want the justicars to keep their swords or take one of the halberds or hammers.

Grey Knight Terminator Squad
Incinerator, 2x halberd, 2x hammer
The captain's scoring guard, riding in one of the storm raven's to get them where they need to be all the faster. Since halberds and hammers are free, the composition can easily be changed though I do think I want at least one of both, though the flamer will be keeping his sword for that slightly better invulnerable save.

Elites: 190
Purifier Squad
2x Psycannon
Rhino
Similar concept as the strike squads, though I get to buy two cannons for half the price of the squad.

Fast Attack: 430
Storm raven
Pysbolt ammo
Not really interested in the hurricane bolters honestly; that aside this is some ranged firepower that the list is lacking a bit of, and transport to either the terminators or purgation squad.

Storm raven
Twin linked multi-melta, twin linked lascannon
The anti armour/flyer of the list. Yeah the other raven can take out flyers as well, but while most don't like S7, willing to bet they hate S8 and 9 more. Like the other raven, this would be the transport of either the terminators or purgation squad (depending on who went in the other one.)

Heavy Support: 295
Purgation squad
3x Psycannon
These guys are here to get in close and unload with the cannons, forcing the enemy to engage their relatively small numbers and waste time on them. If I could, I'd bring the squad up to six strong because I am a very strong advocator of two bodies to a heavy weapon, but I can live with being one shy of that (so if your going to suggest four cannons I'd want to have two or three more bodies in the unit.)

Dreadnought
2x Twin linked autocannon, psybolt ammo
Sticking out like a sore thumb is this guy, but again I need some long range support in this list or there will be a bit of hell for my other units to pay. Not really much to say about him to be quite honest.

Total: 1845/1850


Thats what I've come up with, so please tell me what you think and any thoughts/idea's for improvement.


Something that I do want to note, as sixth's inclusion of allies and renaming of the codex can lead to slight confusion on this. When I say pure Grey Knights, I mean it as that: only Grey Knight units in this list, no inquisition stuff. So no Coteaz, no henchmen units consisting of assassins or acolytes and servitors toting plasma, and no allies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Everything except for the Terminators and Brother-Captain seems reasonable for semi competitive play for pure GK- obviously not top-notch, but servicable in an LGS environment.

Assuming you want to stick with non-Inquisitorial stuff (there are two interpretations of 'Pure' these days...), I'd drop the Terminators and Brother Captain, and take a grand master and another Purifier squad, maybe? you end up with a bit more scoring through GS, and have more psycannons and assault potential.

Also, MSU Purifiers want a Razorback, not a Rhino. With Shaken and Stunned being so punishing these days, you can't afford to be using your cars as bunkers these days, so you might as well bring another gun.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Everything except for the Terminators and Brother-Captain seems reasonable for semi competitive play for pure GK- obviously not top-notch, but servicable in an LGS environment.
I'd have thought the terminators and captain were reasonable for semi-competitive play.

Assuming you want to stick with non-Inquisitorial stuff (there are two interpretations of 'Pure' these days...),
Considering thats exactly what I said I want to do.

I'd drop the Terminators and Brother Captain, and take a grand master and another Purifier squad, maybe?
Which nets me exactly two more psycannons and a rhino, assuming I keep the setup for the grand master the same as the brother captain. If not, then two more psycannons and a razorback.

Sure, keeping the terminators only nets me nine psycannons over the eleven of more purifiers, but I also lose out on slightly better armour/invulnerable save and a unit that the HQ 'fits' with; if you get what I mean.

Maybe a brotherhood champion or Crowe might be a good idea? Drop a strike squad unit in place of a full sized purifier squad rocking the same upgrades but more cannons?

you end up with a bit more scoring through GS, and have more psycannons and assault potential.
Actually no, I'd get as many scoring units through grand strategy if I dropped the terminators for another purifier unit. I'm dropping a scoring unit for a non scoring one, I need the minimum on strategy to get to where I was before, and the highest would give me the same number of scoring as the middle from the current list.

Also, MSU Purifiers want a Razorback, not a Rhino. With Shaken and Stunned being so punishing these days, you can't afford to be using your cars as bunkers these days, so you might as well bring another gun.
Thats what fortitiude is for, ignoring shaken and stunned most of the time last I checked. Taking the razorback is more points and doesn't let me make use of those cannons while embarked. The rhino on the other hand does; though yes I lose out on a bit of strength six firepower for it.

I may have a change of heart on this opinion after a few games, but for now to me four to eight strength seven shots are more worthwhile than three strength six shots a turn (especially since I'd likely be trying to stay out of sight/in smoke when at long range.)


Thanks for that though Coke, I hadn't even thoguht to look at Crowe for a list; might end up re-working things to have him lead it; though the lack of AP on his weapon in close combat isn't terribly fun. (Well, no character hunting for Crowe then!) I guess the guy really depends on cleaning flame to help him do a lot of damage then.

Also, any thoughts on the strike squad justicars? That and the loadout for the terminators?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
Also, any thoughts on the strike squad justicars? That and the loadout for the terminators?
I am finding that Warding Staves are worth the investment. They have paid some useful dividends in the past.

For the Termies I often find that the swords are a better option if you are expecting lots of High I units, Dark Eldar etc but in general Halberds are the go with a single hammer. I have run with Incinerators in the past but generally always come back to Psycannon for their greater usefulness. I find I fire flamers once or twice but psycannon fire nearly every turn.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I am finding that Warding Staves are worth the investment. They have paid some useful dividends in the past.
Yeah, I just read up on the fact that they are unusual force weapons; AP3 and that invulnerable save boost on the justicar definitely sound nice. Now I just need to find the points for the damned things!

For the Termies I often find that the swords are a better option if you are expecting lots of High I units, Dark Eldar etc but in general Halberds are the go with a single hammer.
Alright, think maybe I'll run them as a hammer, pair of halberds, and pair of swords.

I have run with Incinerators in the past but generally always come back to Psycannon for their greater usefulness. I find I fire flamers once or twice but psycannon fire nearly every turn.
The trouble is a lack of points; with terminators and brother captains paying through the nose, where in the many hells would I find the points? (Because believe me, I'd at least give the captain one if it wouldn't drastically increase his points like that.)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
The trouble is a lack of points; with terminators and brother captains paying through the nose, where in the many hells would I find the points? (Because believe me, I'd at least give the captain one if it wouldn't drastically increase his points like that.)
Yep that is the conundrum of Grey Knights, the high cost of the HQ's is a problem. You do spend a lot of points on them and they don't really bring a hell of a lot to your Army for the points and they aren't uber-killy combat monsters. The GM's are really the only ones who grant some army bonuses.

Personally I take a cheaper HQ and increase my foot soldier options as I don't like putting too many eggs in the one basket. That's why Coteaz is such good value for money.

If you're wanting to stay "pure" then the Brotherhood champion is an option as your basically just filling the slot as cheaply as you can. He doesn't really bring anything to your army as a whole but he is an OK character on his own particularly if there is a high value IC you need to sort out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
I'd have thought the terminators and captain were reasonable for semi-competitive play.
Terminators are... OK, I guess, but brother captain is just handicapping yourself too much.[/quote

Which nets me exactly two more psycannons and a rhino, assuming I keep the setup for the grand master the same as the brother captain. If not, then two more psycannons and a razorback.
and...? Not sure what the problem is here...

Sure, keeping the terminators only nets me nine psycannons over the eleven of more purifiers, but I also lose out on slightly better armour/invulnerable save and a unit that the HQ 'fits' with; if you get what I mean.
I'd argue that the Terminators aren't really that much more survivable- indeed, point for point, they have the same survivability as a GKSS, except against AP3 obviously.

I'd also argue that the HQ fits just fine with the Purgators who want to be on foot contributing all those psycannon shots, and would love a 2+ save guy to tank shots.

Maybe a brotherhood champion or Crowe might be a good idea? Drop a strike squad unit in place of a full sized purifier squad rocking the same upgrades but more cannons?
Crowes generally a bad idea, since a GM can effectively achieve the same thing (and more) through GS. A regular Brochamp isn't awful though, especially if you have something particularly nasty to deliver in the Raven (and Terminators don't really apply here).

Actually no, I'd get as many scoring units through grand strategy if I dropped the terminators for another purifier unit. I'm dropping a scoring unit for a non scoring one, I need the minimum on strategy to get to where I was before, and the highest would give me the same number of scoring as the middle from the current list.
Huh? You'd have the same amount guaranteed, and then 66% of the time you get more scoring. You don't have GS in your current list, so not really sure what your argument is here?

Thats what fortitiude is for, ignoring shaken and stunned most of the time last I checked. Taking the razorback is more points and doesn't let me make use of those cannons while embarked. The rhino on the other hand does; though yes I lose out on a bit of strength six firepower for it.
Go read the Transport rules. Shaken and Stunned apply a separate result to the passengers, and Fortitude does not remove this, so if your car gets shaken/stunned, no amount of Fortituding will allow the guys inside to shoot at full effect.

Any competent opponent shouldn't have too much trouble suppressing your units trying to bunker down- this is 6th edition, and immortal rhino bunkers are no longer a thing.

I may have a change of heart on this opinion after a few games, but for now to me four to eight strength seven shots are more worthwhile than three strength six shots a turn (especially since I'd likely be trying to stay out of sight/in smoke when at long range.)
The thing is, if you get out of your car, you can have 4-8 S7 AND a bunch of S6 shots at the same time

Thanks for that though Coke, I hadn't even thoguht to look at Crowe for a list; might end up re-working things to have him lead it; though the lack of AP on his weapon in close combat isn't terribly fun. (Well, no character hunting for Crowe then!) I guess the guy really depends on cleaning flame to help him do a lot of damage then.
I totally didn't suggest Crowe (but he can be OK in semi competitive I guess), but whatevs :p.

Also note that Crowe rends on a 4+, so AP isn't really an issue. It's more that he doesn't have the force weapon.

Also, any thoughts on the strike squad justicars? That and the loadout for the terminators?
I usually run justicars nekkid. If I must run Terminators, I kinda like 3x Halberd 2x hammer, with one psycannon thrown in there somewhere.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Terminators are... OK, I guess, but brother captain is just handicapping yourself too much.
Other than not having grand strategy, how is taking the brother-captain handicapping myself exactly? And if grand strategy is your only argument, then keep in mind the grand master is almost as much a 'tax' as Crowe considering their expense and how 'much' they bring to the table.

I'd argue that the Terminators aren't really that much more survivable- indeed, point for point, they have the same survivability as a GKSS, except against AP3 obviously.
Well AP3 and a bit of AP2, since their invulnerable saves can allow them to survive some of that fire.

I'd also argue that the HQ fits just fine with the Purgators who want to be on foot contributing all those psycannon shots, and would love a 2+ save guy to tank shots.

Crowes generally a bad idea, since a GM can effectively achieve the same thing (and more) through GS. A regular Brochamp isn't awful though, especially if you have something particularly nasty to deliver in the Raven (and Terminators don't really apply here).
Except that Crowe is a tad cheaper, meaning more bodies can be on the field )not many but one is still more than none), and when taking a master for strategy I'm mostly depending on my dice roll being good.

and...? Not sure what the problem is here...

Huh? You'd have the same amount guaranteed, and then 66% of the time you get more scoring. You don't have GS in your current list, so not really sure what your argument is here?
Alright, my problem is this: your suggesting I drop the terminators in favour of a non troops unit (list goes from 3 scoring to 2 scoring.) At worst, I make one unit scoring, bringing me back up to 3 scoring units; 5 units at best.

Thing is, gaining more scoring units is entirely dice dependent, requires me to spend more for potentially the same number of scoring units (because in order to even get back the minimum the grand master becomes a must), and treats my HQ almost completely like a tax to the army rather than the boost to a squad.

See where I'm going with this yet?

Go read the Transport rules. Shaken and Stunned apply a separate result to the passengers, and Fortitude does not remove this, so if your car gets shaken/stunned, no amount of Fortituding will allow the guys inside to shoot at full effect.

Any competent opponent shouldn't have too much trouble suppressing your units trying to bunker down- this is 6th edition, and immortal rhino bunkers are no longer a thing.
Haha, your right about fortitude not helping to let them shoot from within the rhino; that would be my goof.

Having said that, while one particular tactic in using the rhino may be less than viable these days, theres still more than one way to use the thing and to great effect. If you don't believe me then I strongly urge you to give The Son of Horus's recent rhino post a view.

With that in mind though, any competent player should be make use of the likes of terrain, wargear, and supporting units to make the opponents job that much harder.

The thing is, if you get out of your car, you can have 4-8 S7 AND a bunch of S6 shots at the same time
The point of the transport for those guys is a relatively inexpensive way to get closer to the enemy with a degree of speed, flexibility, and protection. I get that with the rhino since it comes in at only the cost of two knights; the razorback on the other hand costs me more, I have to upgrade it, and doesn't let anyone inside shoot unless everyone gets the hell out.

There are a variety of tactics I can use with the rhino, but less so for the razorback because of its higher cost (even with just the ammo.)

I totally didn't suggest Crowe (but he can be OK in semi competitive I guess), but whatevs .
No, but you did get me thinking of some alternate and cheaper costing options.

Also note that Crowe rends on a 4+, so AP isn't really an issue. It's more that he doesn't have the force weapon.
I completely missed the rending bit, so that definitely makes him a more attractive option.

I usually run justicars nekkid. If I must run Terminators, I kinda like 3x Halberd 2x hammer, with one psycannon thrown in there somewhere.
Right so now the loadouts to try are pair of swords, pair of halberds, and a hammer, and three halberds and two hammers. Will have to see which one works out better.


Also, I do hope that I am not coming off as to terribly combative with some of these suggestions from everyone. For some it seems like the only things that work in their local meta are grand masters (with everything else wearing terminator armour being terrible choices that shouldn't be considered at all) backed by nothing but psycannons and psybolt equipped guns (and if it doesn't then its bad.) However thats not how its going to work best everywhere. Its like trying to force a mono-build down someone's throat.

Mind you psycannons and psybolt ammo are pretty good, even for the codex they are not the end all be all for everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
Other than not having grand strategy, how is taking the brother-captain handicapping myself exactly? And if grand strategy is your only argument, then keep in mind the grand master is almost as much a 'tax' as Crowe considering their expense and how 'much' they bring to the table.
The Brother-Captain adds nothing to your army other than being a semi beatstick- and a very inefficient one at that. By not bringing literally any other HQ in the Grey Knight codex, you're depriving yourself of some really powerful buff characters who actually provide an impact on the game outside of "Hey, here's a few more force weapon attacks!". It doesn't even need to be Grand Strategy, it could just as easily be a barebones librarian who rolls on Divination. Even a Brotherhood Champion gets a nod over the Captain, as he does essentially the same thing, but cheaper.

In short, you're handicapping yourself by depriving yourself of a powerful resource. Opportunity costs and all...

Well AP3 and a bit of AP2, since their invulnerable saves can allow them to survive some of that fire.
Since your units should be taking cover, this really isn't all that relevant, except when you get into corner cases like IG orders I guess, but then there's stuff like Null Zone, so...

Except that Crowe is a tad cheaper, meaning more bodies can be on the field )not many but one is still more than none), and when taking a master for strategy I'm mostly depending on my dice roll being good.
Crowe also has to stand around all by his lonesome like a dork, and cops a lascannon to the face as soon as he does anything, which will mean one of 2 things- a) You just gave your opponent Slay the Warlord or b) you had to spend yet more points on an HQ to avoid this, which renders your point moot.

Also, Crowe can only ever make your purifiers scoring- Grand Strategy CAN make your guys scoring, but in games where that's not relevant, it turns into something else that's awesome- usually scouts, which is a pretty big deal for an army that operates at 24". There will be games when Crowe is literally a dead weight adding little to nothing to the army.

Alright, my problem is this: your suggesting I drop the terminators in favour of a non troops unit (list goes from 3 scoring to 2 scoring.) At worst, I make one unit scoring, bringing me back up to 3 scoring units; 5 units at best.

Thing is, gaining more scoring units is entirely dice dependent, requires me to spend more for potentially the same number of scoring units (because in order to even get back the minimum the grand master becomes a must), and treats my HQ almost completely like a tax to the army rather than the boost to a squad.

See where I'm going with this yet?
No, I still don't see it.

At worst, you maintain the same number of scoring units. You either have 3 scoring units, or 2+D3. When the D3 rolls up a one, you still have the same amount of scoring. When you roll higher, you have more scoring. At no point does taking a GM give you less scoring potential, and it even gives you the flexibility to change which units are going to score dependent on which suits the mission better.

The Brother-Captain IS a tax- it adds so very little to the army that it's not funny. When you spend points on something because you're forced to fill up some requirement, it's a tax. The Grand Master does pretty much everything the Brother-Captain does, except he gains Grand Strategy for 25pts, which is an absolute steal.

On the other hand, terminators are really just not a very good unit. They're expensive and slow, unless you buy another expensive vehicle to transport them in. They aren't appreciably more survivable than their power armour equivalents, and bring less firepower pound for pound. They're really mediocre in assault, and really suffer from the inability to Sweeping Advance. Seriously, the only good thing about CC is that when you win, you usually wipe out a unit wholesale- but Terminators don't have this ability. They suck.

Compare this to taking Purifiers (who bring more firepower and do combat just as well) and a GM (who is essentially just the Brother-Captain except better).

Having said that, while one particular tactic in using the rhino may be less than viable these days, theres still more than one way to use the thing and to great effect. If you don't believe me then I strongly urge you to give The Son of Horus's recent rhino post a view.
I'm very familiar with Rhino tactics- the thing is, everything you can do with a Rhino can be done with a Razorback, except for potentially hiding and shooting out the top hatch- which we've already established is a bad idea.

I'm not saying Rhinos are bad, I'm saying that if you don't need the extra space to transport large units, then why not bring another gun? The 10 strong GKSS obviously bring a Rhino, they want the transport, but the 5 strong Purifiers are better off in a razorback- 10pts nets you 3 more TL S6 shots, which is peanuts.

With that in mind though, any competent player should be make use of the likes of terrain, wargear, and supporting units to make the opponents job that much harder.
If you realise this, then why make it easier for your opponent to deal with you by allowing them to easily suppress your firepower?

The point of the transport for those guys is a relatively inexpensive way to get closer to the enemy with a degree of speed, flexibility, and protection. I get that with the rhino since it comes in at only the cost of two knights; the razorback on the other hand costs me more, I have to upgrade it, and doesn't let anyone inside shoot unless everyone gets the hell out.

There are a variety of tactics I can use with the rhino, but less so for the razorback because of its higher cost (even with just the ammo.)
As mentioned above, there's really only one thing a Rhino can do that a Razorback can't- and that one tactic is a bad idea. Razorback does everything the Rhino does, except it also has a decent gun. The only reason to be taking a Rhino is when you want to transport a unit that has more than 6 guys- otherwise, you might as well pay the meager 10pts and grab a psyammo heavy bolter.

No, but you did get me thinking of some alternate and cheaper costing options.
Ah KK, wasn't quite sure where that was coming from.

I completely missed the rending bit, so that definitely makes him a more attractive option.
His problem was never his CC output, but how to deliver him efficiently.

Also, I do hope that I am not coming off as to terribly combative with some of these suggestions from everyone. For some it seems like the only things that work in their local meta are grand masters (with everything else wearing terminator armour being terrible choices that shouldn't be considered at all) backed by nothing but psycannons and psybolt equipped guns (and if it doesn't then its bad.) However thats not how its going to work best everywhere. Its like trying to force a mono-build down someone's throat.
First off, don't worry about rubbing people the wrong way- when we offer advice, we have to be prepared to have it rejected, whether it be right or wrong to do so. Whether the recipient decides to follow their advice has pretty much zero impact on the advisor, and so if they're going to get butthurt over it, then I'd heartily recommend they get off the internet (although feel free to ignore this advice as well :p)

No-one said that everything in terminator armour that isn't a GM is bad- in fact, the only truly unplayable HQs in GK are Brother-Captains, Stern and Crowe. Basically everything else is justifiable, although only a couple are truly "good" (Coteaz and Grand Master) and there is one choice that is obviously the best (Coteaz). If you want a Terminator Armour guy who isn't the GM, try out the Libby- a ML2 Divination guy is pretty sweet, and the only reason these guys don't really see play is because Coteaz is so much cheaper, but for a sans =I= army, he's pretty great. The reason the GM was suggested is that a)You started with a Brother-Captain, and the obvious upgrade is to just make him a GM and b) He alleviates the obvious scoring problems your list has (which are there even if you keep the terminators).

Outside HQs, Paladins are also plenty usable, although I wouldn't go around constructing deathstars with them.

The only thing people said is that all the terminators *you picked* are bad.

It's also not a matter of metagame. If I build my army around a core of Coteaz and 30 GKSS with psycannons and psyammo, I can be confident at taking on pretty much any army I please. I can also build a number of different armies around this one central starting block, all of which play fairly differently. It's just the condition of the Grey Knight book that they're somewhat starved of different options to deal with certain threats- for instance, if you deprive yourself of melta through henchmen, then the only things left in your book that deal with high AVs are psycannons and hammers. Since hammers are often both hard to deliver and quite dangerous to use (assuming your opponent doesn't overextend their stuff), it means that you're generally relying on your psycannons to do the heavy lifting via weight of fire against heavy vehicles, which means you need to be bristling with psycannons.

Mind you psycannons and psybolt ammo are pretty good, even for the codex they are not the end all be all for everyone.
Granted, psyammo isn't 100% necessary, it's just stupidly undercosted on large units, but I would argue that Psycannons ARE the be all and end all (except in the case of both Interceptors and Dreadknights, where the incinerator shines), for the reasons I outlined above- you need them to kill tanks, and you already shred infantry, so you might as well take more tank killing stuff. They're also not completely awful as backup AA either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
146 Posts
If you want a Terminator Armour guy who isn't the GM, try out the Libby
I was going to suggest the Librarian. Yes you loose Incinerator, rad grenades, and some stats, but you keep the term armor and can add some fun interactions to your army. You also get some points back to spend elsewhere even if you give the Liby psybolt and a halberd/hammer. For example, give the termies 3 hammers/2swords, then take quicksilver with the Liby, run these units together and go at I10. Might of Titans stacks with hammerhand, or add whatever your next favorite power is.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
The Brother-Captain adds nothing to your army other than being a semi beatstick- and a very inefficient one at that.
No more inefficient than the grand master you keep trying to force down my throat. And you are doing exactly that, since saying that the brother-captain is 'inefficient', 'handicapping myself', and 'not a reasonable choice' does not lend itself to anything but trying to force me to take something I have already expressed not wanting to take.

By not bringing literally any other HQ in the Grey Knight codex, you're depriving yourself of some really powerful buff characters who actually provide an impact on the game outside of "Hey, here's a few more force weapon attacks!". It doesn't even need to be Grand Strategy, it could just as easily be a barebones librarian who rolls on Divination. Even a Brotherhood Champion gets a nod over the Captain, as he does essentially the same thing, but cheaper.
And bear in mind this is the first time your bothering to suggest any of those, but not before trying once again to get me to take the grand master.

Since your units should be taking cover, this really isn't all that relevant, except when you get into corner cases like IG orders I guess, but then there's stuff like Null Zone, so...
Except in situations where I find myself not able to take a cover save, like against overwatch when charging, it becomes pretty relevant.

Crowe also has to stand around all by his lonesome like a dork, and cops a lascannon to the face as soon as he does anything, which will mean one of 2 things- a) You just gave your opponent Slay the Warlord or b) you had to spend yet more points on an HQ to avoid this, which renders your point moot.
What? Why would he have to stand around on his own?

Also, Crowe can only ever make your purifiers scoring- Grand Strategy CAN make your guys scoring, but in games where that's not relevant, it turns into something else that's awesome- usually scouts, which is a pretty big deal for an army that operates at 24". There will be games when Crowe is literally a dead weight adding little to nothing to the army.
Except giving me a third choice for a scoring unit rather than relying on my HQ to make more of my units scoring or give them scout. I'd have thought purifiers becoming scoring would be a very good thing in your eyes, means more psycannons on the fields for little extra investment per unit.

No, I still don't see it.

At worst, you maintain the same number of scoring units. You either have 3 scoring units, or 2+D3. When the D3 rolls up a one, you still have the same amount of scoring. When you roll higher, you have more scoring. At no point does taking a GM give you less scoring potential, and it even gives you the flexibility to change which units are going to score dependent on which suits the mission better.
Alright let me try this then: by removing the terminators I am actually paying more for the same number of scoring units in the worst case scenario.

Thats my problem, for the chance to get more scoring units I have to pay more and there is no guarantee. And should I find myself in a situation where I don't need that, and give them something else, then I am potentially back down to two/three scoring units but paid more in the process for minimal gain.

I've also gone as far to bold some of the key words for you, so that you hopefully see my point this time around.

The Brother-Captain IS a tax- it adds so very little to the army that it's not funny. When you spend points on something because you're forced to fill up some requirement, it's a tax. The Grand Master does pretty much everything the Brother-Captain does, except he gains Grand Strategy for 25pts, which is an absolute steal.
Except the grand master adds as much to the force as the brother-captain barring grand strategy. And again, if grand strategy is your only argument for why he is better than the grand master is only slightly better.

Ultimately grand strategy is not a steal at 25 points; its minimal gain at nearly 200 points (since your point appears to be the brother-captain being nigh useless and the grand master doing pretty much what he does plus one rule.)

On the other hand, terminators are really just not a very good unit. They're expensive and slow, unless you buy another expensive vehicle to transport them in.
Gasp/shock/surprise! I bought two storm ravens to act as both transport and anti flyer detail, and noted that one of them is transporting the terminators. Its as if I looked to cover their slower movement base from the start or something..:(

They aren't appreciably more survivable than their power armour equivalents,
Except, as you noted, against AP3 and (as I noted) some AP2 when they find themselves not in cover; which does happen.

They're really mediocre in assault,
What, marines aren't gods in close combat? News to me...

and really suffer from the inability to Sweeping Advance.
Normally getting charged isn't the most ideal of situations, what with the enemy getting more attacks, but rad grenades do function whether they charge or you do.

They suck.
Except for having better armour, more base attacks per model, have relentless, and can deep strike if you want. I don't know if its just me, but I think your trying to come off a bit to strongly with this particular opinion of yours.

Compare this to taking Purifiers (who bring more firepower and do combat just as well)
For more points, with worse armour and no relentless

and a GM (who is essentially just the Brother-Captain except better).
Who is a brother captain with one extra ability; so your essentially paying the grand masters entire points for that ability.


I'm very familiar with Rhino tactics- the thing is, everything you can do with a Rhino can be done with a Razorback, except for potentially hiding and shooting out the top hatch- which we've already established is a bad idea.
Actually no we haven't, you've just stated the rhino can be stunned/shaken and fortitude does not help the passengers as I had mistakenly thought it did. Shooting out of the top hatch does not hurt the rhino or the unit inside.

In fact, the situations where I'd be looking to fire the cannons out the top hatch are essentially the same as those for which I'd be firing the razorback gun; meaning I'm open to the same shake/stun firepower.

Perhaps you should better elaborate on why exactly the razorback is better exactly?

I'm saying that if you don't need the extra space to transport large units, then why not bring another gun?
Points? The inability to fire the cannons from within the transport? The inability for another unit to swap places in the rhino if I absolutely need to.

If you realise this, then why make it easier for your opponent to deal with you by allowing them to easily suppress your firepower?
Uh...if I want the razorback to shoot, I need to put it in relative harms way anyway.

His problem was never his CC output, but how to deliver him efficiently.
Which I seem to already have an answer for..

The only thing people said is that all the terminators *you picked* are bad.
By people you mean yourself

It's also not a matter of metagame.
Actually it is, if you play in an area where everyone brings certain builds than only certain counters are going to work. Different area's seeing different units may and can see different options being more viable. Limit yourself to thinking it needs to be exactly the same everywhere and you can end up hurting other players by convincing them to take sub par stuff for their meta.

If I build my army around a core of Coteaz and 30 GKSS with psycannons and psyammo, I can be confident at taking on pretty much any army I please. I can also build a number of different armies around this one central starting block, all of which play fairly differently.
With the things you keep going on about, you could but wouldn't. After transports and some other upgrades that core comes in at 1000 points, and your next buy needs to be either a defense line or storm raven (preferably a pair) and then some long range fire in the guise of psyflemen. Now your at the 1500 point level, next step might be purgators, or a dreadknight, or some purifiers, or some henchmen (probably this so you can deliver a quartet of death cult assassins.) Whoops, 2000 points come and gone.

Yeah it can do well in some very competitive scenes, but its a mono build no matter how much you try to wag about it not being.

It's just the condition of the Grey Knight book that they're somewhat starved of different options to deal with certain threats-
Only when you limit yourself by saying that certain options are instantly bad (which is different than limiting your options on a certain list because you want to use other things.)

I was going to suggest the Librarian. Yes you loose Incinerator, rad grenades, and some stats, but you keep the term armor and can add some fun interactions to your army. You also get some points back to spend elsewhere even if you give the Liby psybolt and a halberd/hammer. For example, give the termies 3 hammers/2swords, then take quicksilver with the Liby, run these units together and go at I10. Might of Titans stacks with hammerhand, or add whatever your next favorite power is.
Hadn't thought of that, would quicksilver work on the hammers though or would they just be I1?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,846 Posts
I was going to address every point you bring up, but I got half way through and realised that you're simply not interested in listening, so I decided to not waste my time. I'm just going to point out a few glaring things and then be on my way.

Except in situations where I find myself not able to take a cover save, like against overwatch when charging, it becomes pretty relevant.
It is possible to receive a cover save against overwatch- it's a regular shooting attack that simply occurs during a different phase and is resolved as Snap Shots, and with correct placement you can usually manage it whilst not having to charge through cover yourself.

What? Why would he have to stand around on his own?
Much like Mephiston, Crowe does not have the Independent Character special rule. Unfortunately, unlike Mephiston he is not a T6 God of Close Combat, but rather is a T4 W2 dork, and so rarely actually hits CC.

Normally getting charged isn't the most ideal of situations, what with the enemy getting more attacks, but rad grenades do function whether they charge or you do.
Sweeping Advance has literally nothing to do with whether you get the charge or not.

When a unit defeats another unit in close combat, and the defeated unit fails its morale check, the winning unit can choose to perform a Sweeping Advance (there's basically no reason not to). The two units roll off and add their respective initiative values, and if the winning unit equals or betters to losing units result, then the losing unit is destroyed. Nothing about charging, it's all about there being a winner, a loser, and a failed morale check.

It's basically the only advantage close combat has over shooting, and Terminators can't do it. Since Terminators have less shooting output per guy than PA equivalents, can't do the most important thing when it comes to CC, and they can't hop in a cheap transport for mobility, all whilst costing more, it makes them bad- not that you're going to listen to this.

Hadn't thought of that, would quicksilver work on the hammers though or would they just be I1?
It doesn't work on them- the wording on hammers/fists is "they strike at I1", so it doesn't matter at all what the Initiative of the model is, when using that weapon they still strike at the lower initiative.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I was going to address every point you bring up, but I got half way through and realised that you're simply not interested in listening, so I decided to not waste my time. I'm just going to point out a few glaring things and then be on my way.
Well when you come in and tell me to go a grand master after I make it clear I don't want a grand master, should I be grateful or something?


Much like Mephiston, Crowe does not have the Independent Character special rule.
Oh look at that, I kept looking at the unit type like that was the answer (and scratching my head because it was the same type as the other HQ's


Sweeping Advance has literally nothing to do with whether you get the charge or not.
I meant that them not being able to sweep, thus leaving them open to getting charged, is not as bad a thing in this case thanks to the captains rad grenades. Being open to return fire will still suck though.

When a unit defeats another unit in close combat, and the defeated unit fails its morale check, the winning unit can choose to perform a Sweeping Advance (there's basically no reason not to). The two units roll off and add their respective initiative values, and if the winning unit equals or betters to losing units result, then the losing unit is destroyed. Nothing about charging, it's all about there being a winner, a loser, and a failed morale check.
Yes, thank you for that; just because I hop from army to army doesn't mean I have no idea how to play the game..

It doesn't work on them- the wording on hammers/fists is "they strike at I1", so it doesn't matter at all what the Initiative of the model is, when using that weapon they still strike at the lower initiative.
Not that I was expecting to get I10 hammers, that still kinda sucks; though it does make the free halberds unnecessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Crowe can't join units or embark in transports with units (since he can't join them) but he can be bubble wrapped by them, he just has to do things like make his charge rolls separately.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the Storm Raven but it looks like you actually want to use it for more than just air support so that's good.

Honestly it doesn't look like a bad list for semi-competitive (maybe not great but I've seen worse out there). Has it seen table time yet? I'm curious what information play testing will bring.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Crowe can't join units or embark in transports with units (since he can't join them) but he can be bubble wrapped by them, he just has to do things like make his charge rolls separately.
Thats true, though I'd have to think long and hard about what squad I'd want to wrap him around.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the Storm Raven but it looks like you actually want to use it for more than just air support so that's good.
Yeah, I knew when making the list that I was going to include a unit of terminators for my HQ to go with (was initially a three way split between Mordrak and his ghosts, a brother captain toting a flamethrower, or a librarian with a power or two) and that mobility would be their greatest issue. Though the land raider is tough and packs some strong weapons, I figured I'd be using flyers anyway so the storm raven(s) should make use of their transport capacity.

Has it seen table time yet? I'm curious what information play testing will bring.
Sadly not yet, though I'm hoping to change that in the near future.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
Go read the Transport rules. Shaken and Stunned apply a separate result to the passengers, and Fortitude does not remove this, so if your car gets shaken/stunned, no amount of Fortituding will allow the guys inside to shoot at full effect.
Not 100% convinced on this. The Fortitude roll simply says the effects of the Crew Shaken/Stunned are nullified and not longer apply. If the squad is still in the vehicle I can't see how the "healing" wouldn't flow on in the same manner the "suffering" does.

Thats true, though I'd have to think long and hard about what squad I'd want to wrap him around.
Just put him with the one most likely to get into combat, he is a "bomb" in the middle of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
I was going to suggest the Librarian. Yes you loose Incinerator, rad grenades, and some stats, but you keep the term armor and can add some fun interactions to your army. You also get some points back to spend elsewhere even if you give the Liby psybolt and a halberd/hammer. For example, give the termies 3 hammers/2swords, then take quicksilver with the Liby, run these units together and go at I10. Might of Titans stacks with hammerhand, or add whatever your next favorite power is.
Personally this combo coming out of a Raven is the only time I play terminators. I also like the Brotherhood Banner for this. I find this gives you a monster in your opponents back field. That said I usually just use DCA for this unless I am playing Necrons or Demons. Those STR 10 Hammers just eat through AV13 and 14 and GK are always better at killing Demons than Inq.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
greetings

Not a bad setup. I just have two opinions or rather questions with regards. You say you lack points but in my opinion you spend points where they are not needed. for instance for 765pts you come away with just 2 strike squad units in rhinos.
if you really wanted to, u could get 3 with the similar setup yet have swords in all three units,2 psycannons, 2 rhinos and 2 hammers. the third unit can DS and combat squad to go create havic or take some sort of objective and you manage to have 5 points left over. im sure you have your reasons for a SS with halberds but, honestly that a 1 wound model with 1 Attk that should not be have expensive equipment.

how come no dreadknights, they are very dangerous and allow your SS some breathing room because no one wants that thing on their front lines.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Sorry about taking so long to respond to this.

for instance for 765pts you come away with just 2 strike squad units in rhinos.
Actually, for 765 points I come away with two full sized strike squads in rhinos and a temrinator squad. Its about a 230 point difference I believe:p

if you really wanted to, u could get 3 with the similar setup yet have swords in all three units,2 psycannons, 2 rhinos and 2 hammers.
Unless I am missing something here, what your suggesting would cost me around 800 points, which would once again be an issue due to a distinct pack of points.

the third unit can DS and combat squad to go create havic or take some sort of objective and you manage to have 5 points left over.
Now I know I'm missing something. Are you suggesting three full sized squads, each with a pair of psycannons, a pair of hammers, and two of the three with rhinos? Because that would not work out to 760 points.

im sure you have your reasons for a SS with halberds but, honestly that a 1 wound model with 1 Attk that should not be have expensive equipment.
Spur choice, though I am thinking of keeping them on the justicar.

how come no dreadknights, they are very dangerous and allow your SS some breathing room because no one wants that thing on their front lines.
Because, unfortunately, they get very expensive very quickly and I am hemmed in with a lack of points. A 2k bump would likely see one in, likely at the expensive of the dreadnought.
 

·
Grand Master
Joined
·
87 Posts
I am a fan of using terminators because I love the models, but coke has many good points on why they are bad. Nowadays I usually take 5 paladins to escort an hq and find it works much better overall and skip terminators anywhere else. As far as weapon loadout on terminators goes, I would recommend 4 sword/halberd, 2 hammer.

I am also a big fan of the grand master. I do not understand why you are so opposed to him. You can surely find 25 points, and I don't think you understand how useful grand strategy is. Scouts can put d3 of your units into psycannon range on turn 1. You can reroll all 1's to wound on d3 units, or increase your scoring ability when needed. Regardless of grand master or brother captain though, I would recommend taking the sword, as it will give him a 3++ in combat, which I think is worth more than +2i for less points.

I also heartily recommend the hurricane bolters on your stormravens, you are already taking psybolts on one of them, I would atleast put it on that one to make the most out of the upgrade. Then you have a gunboat that shreds infantry to deliver your combat units.

As far as weapons on the strike men go I recommend keeping them focused on reaching 24" asap and standing there maximizing their psycannon shots, waiting for the enemy to come to them to assault. This means I usually take just swords to keep them cheap. With all your ravens around, I would recommend taking 1 strike squad and putting a good mix of weapons in there, a hammer of two, and a halberd or two. There is some discussion as to wether justicar is better with a hammer or halberd. I prefer the halberd but it is up to you. I would then place them in the raven, or combat squad them into psycannons/combat weapons and put the combat half in the raven. I would not take too many strike squads with weapons, as they can be very hard to deliver, especially when you want to be standing still to maximize your psycannons. I find it best to combat squad these and either deepstrike/stormraven them into place. With s5 bolters they are a serious threat to rear armor, and if they survive a turn (not an issue in a raven, as they can assault immediately) that hammer is in prime location, usually turn 2 thanks to your grand masters communion.

What do you think of something like this? If you really are so adverse to the grand master you can always take a librarian with divination, which is also great. It's just that that brother captain doesn't do much of anything, at least the grand master/librarian provide what are in my mind excellent buffs to your army. I know it has a few less psycannons (3), but you get a bigger scoring base and a few excellent army buffs. Where you lose the purifiers/purgators, you gain a strike squad+hurricane bolters. This is 4-8r s7, 16 s5, 6-12tl s5, versus 10-20r s7, 10 s4. I think you can see one puts out many more shots than the other, and with machine spirit, the stormraven almost always makes the most efficient use of all weapons, including sponsons. I know you lose some hammer/halberd action on the strike men, by appx 1 squad of them, but like I have covered, and coke as well, they are difficult to deliver for many reasons. The grenades on the grand master are amazing and all stack, they make that unit of terminators pretty savage in combat, providing they get there. Careful use of cover/scouting will do the job 9 times out of 10 I have found.

Grand Master
- Incinerator
- Rad Grenades
- Psychotroke Grenades
- Blind Grenades

Terminators x5
- Psycannon

Strike Squad x10
- Psycannon x2
- Psybolts
- Rhino

Strike Squad x10
- Psycannon x2
- Psybolts
- Rhino

Strike Squad x10
- Psycannon x2
- Psybolts
- Hammer, Halberd (justicar)

Stormraven
- Sponsons
- Psybolts

Stormraven
- Multi melta, lascannon

Dreadnought
- Autocannon x2
- Psybolts

You have plenty of scoring in this list, so you can use grand strategy to scout the grand master w/ terminators into range, potentially along with a psycannon combat squad/rhino strike men to fire psycannons at full effectiveness turn 1. You can then use the grand masters communion since he is on the field to bring in the stormravens asap, the sponsoned one carrying the hammer/halberd combat squad into range, the other tank hunting. If it were me I would even drop the dreadnought, and upgrade the terminators to paladins w/ 2 mc psycannons, staff (justicar), sword, hammer, 2x halberd...but that's just me.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top