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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A Chaos list that has an abundance of troops, led by Fabulous Bile? I must be mad. Or is it you who is mad for forsaking the greatness he brings?

General strategy? GO FORWARD! Except that is, for the Predators and horrors behind the aegis forming a fire base.

Crimson Slaughter + Deamons + Helcult (1850)
Sorcerer: bike, lance, bolt pistol, melta bombs - 85
5 Bikes: melta bombs - 115
Rolling telepathy for a light harassment and counter-charge unit.

Fabius Bile - 165
9 Chaos Marines: enhanced, nurgle, bolt pistols, ccws, power fist - 179
Land Raider: dirge caster - 225
The original gangster right here in his sweet ride. No explanation needed.

10 Chaos Marines: 2 plasma guns, combi-plasma, bolters, ccws, melta bombs - 203
Rhino - 35
Cowers behind the land raider until it can unleash a plasma salvo.

Helbrute: multi-melta, power fist - 100
Cultists: flamer - 55
Cultists: flamer - 55
Who doesn't love fearless cultist meat shields?

Helldrake: baleflamer - 170
For those nay-sayers who insist that Fabulous isn't competitive, LOOK HELLDRAKE!

Predator: autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launcher, combi-bolter - 112
Dakka dakka!

Predator: autocannon, lascannons - 115

Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
The all time kings of sucking dirt.
 

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Review of List

Right where to start...

HQ
Fabius Bile
He's a great fluff character and he can dish out some nasty 18" poisoned (2+) shots and Close combat instant deaths.

However as a HQ choice he sucks, simply because he doesn't last very long. He is has a 3+ Armour save and is toughness 4 - although he has FNP he doesn't have eternal warrior. This means he will be torn like a wet paper bag when he comes up against any AP3 weapons, or high strength weapons which would cause instant death.

His range capability is only AP6 which means that although you are likely to wound them, this will likely be negated by armour saves.

His close combat capability is S5 and is AP - which means everything will be able to save against your 6-8 attacks.

For 165 points he just isn't worth it! We'll have to use mathhammer to compare and contrast with a better option - Chaos Lord.

So Chaos lord with Terminator armour, 1 x Lightning claw , combi-bolter and MoK = 132 points.
The Chaos lord is better stat wise that Fabious as he has: WS6, BS5, I5 and a 2+ armour save! He is only worse than him in regards to attacks and Strength, this can be compensated for though by attaching him to a unit with Icon of wrath. Still aren't convinced? So lets take into account ability to kill MEQ from range, on the charge, following assault phases and ability to take hits.

MATHHAMMER TIME!!

SHOOTING

Fabius - 3 shots, 3+ to hit , 2+ to wound. Ergo 55.5% of all shots will wound. Due to a 3+ armour save on MEQs only 18.5% of all shots will kill. In a round of shooting you will kill an average of 0.55 MEQ models.

Chaos Lord - 2 shots, 2+ to hit (twin-linked), 4+ to wound. Hence 48.6% of all shots will wound. Thus 16.2% of shots will on average kill an MEQ. In a round of shooting you will kill an average of 0.32 MEQ models. Bear in mind that Termie armour grants relentless and a TL bolter's has 6" more range over the needler.


ASSAULT
Fabius - 8 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound. Hence 55.5% will wound. 3+ armours save means each hit has a 18.5% chance of killing an MEQ. Thus Fabius will kill on average 1.48 MEQs on the charge and 1.11 MEQs every round of combat after.

Chaos Lord - 4 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound (re-rolling). A power sword is AP3 negating MEQ armour saves meaning 50.0% of attacks will kill. On the charge he'd kill 2.0 MEQs on average and 1.5 MEQs every other round.

Survivability.
Against S4 weapons, per hit, Fabius will take a wound 22.2% of the time . The Terminator chaos lord will take a wound 16.7% of the time.

Conclusion - Paying 30 points extra for no additional options; poorer WS, BS and Initiative. For a worse combat ability, worse survivalbility and a slightly advanced ranged capacity these 30 points are poorly spent.

I understand the 'enhanced warrior' is tempting but a squad of Khorne berzerkers out perform enhanced standard CSMs
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a positive note the sorcerer accompanying bikes is a good idea; consider giving the bikes mark of nurgle for Toughness 6.

Moving onto troops

In regards to elites, a helbrute is a big fat no-no! Why you ask? although it is relatively cheap it is nowhere as good as it's specialised brethren Maulerfiend, Forgefiend and Defiler all of these do it's job better. In addition it will attract quite a bit of fire if you're intending to try and get within Melta range; it will unlikely last long. Although I didn't do it here it would be worth it to invest another 100 points into a forgefiend with 3 ectoplasma cannons (3 x S8 AP2 Blast... lovely!).


Crimson Slaughter (1850)
Sorcerer: bike, lance, bolt pistol, melta bombs - 85
5 Bikes: melta bombs, MoN - 145

Chaos Lord: MoK, 1x LC, Combi-bolter - 127

8 Khorne Berzerkers: +Aspiring champion w/Pmaul - 177
Land Raider: dirge caster - 225

10 x Chaos Marines: 2 plasma guns, combi-plasma, bolters, ccws, melta bombs - 203
Rhino - 35
Cowers behind the land raider until it can unleash a plasma salvo.

Heldrake: baleflamer - 170
Heldrake: baleflamer - 170
An extra Heldrake never hurts

Vindicator: Demolisher cannon, Havoc launcher - 132
This will provide you with S10 AP2 which is effective against everything (large blast Woop!)

Predator: autocannon, lascannons - 115

30 x Cultists - 130
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100


The list you suggested was very fluffy and the units seem to have non-specific roles (I.e attacking daemons in charge of the aegis defence line?). Please give me a rebuttal if you disagree or think I've overlooked something.
 

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Crimson Slaughter + Deamons + Helcult (1850)
Sorcerer: bike, lance, bolt pistol, melta bombs - 85
5 Bikes: melta bombs - 115
Rolling telepathy for a light harassment and counter-charge unit.
As you are using Crimson Slaughter add the balestar. Mobile Divination isnt a bad plan. I would also add Melta guns or flamers to the bikes to add a bit more firepower.

Fabius Bile - 165
9 Chaos Marines: enhanced, nurgle, bolt pistols, ccws, power fist - 179
Land Raider: dirge caster - 225
The original gangster right here in his sweet ride. No explanation needed.

10 Chaos Marines: 2 plasma guns, combi-plasma, bolters, ccws, melta bombs - 203
Rhino - 35
Cowers behind the land raider until it can unleash a plasma salvo.
Nice, my only advice here would be maybe put Fabius in another squad! Fabius's points are over priced for a single guy, but he gets back to 'competitive' by beaning a force multiplier. As he is fearless add him to a squad that isn't fearless, and let his monsters attack by themselves! (I also would look at adding MOK over MON to give them +1 attack (and if you give them the icon of wrath gives you 37 S 6 hits on the charge!)

Helbrute: multi-melta, power fist - 100
Cultists: flamer - 55
Cultists: flamer - 55
Who doesn't love fearless cultist meat shields?
Sounds Good, I would see if you can find the points for a heavy flamer on the Hebrute - Helps clear infantry before the assault.

Helldrake: baleflamer - 170
For those nay-sayers who insist that Fabulous isn't competitive, LOOK HELLDRAKE!

Predator: autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launcher, combi-bolter - 112
Dakka dakka!
Good Choices, Looks of Dakka.

Predator: autocannon, lascannons - 115

Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
The all time kings of sucking dirt.
Iam not a fan of the Autocannon/Lascannon setup on the pred. In my book is to go with a dakka pred or full lascannon. Messing around with the halfway house pred, can be problomatic (or at least in my experiance)
 

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I dont normal retort comments, but thought this worth it.

Right where to start...
For 165 points he just isn't worth it! We'll have to use mathhammer to compare and contrast with a better option - Chaos Lord.

I understand the 'enhanced warrior' is tempting but a squad of Khorne berzerkers out perform enhanced standard CSMs
Enhanced Warriors; do not cost anything its a free upgrade. And he (Fabius) does only run 30-15pts more than a normal chaos lord. 10 Chaos Marines with MOK and the icon of wrath run 35pts cheeper than 10 Berzerkers, and the only way the Berzerkers outperform these chanced marines is by having +1 WS, but the Marines have +1 Strength. (and with S6 on the charge, it becomes very scarey)

Also on the helbrute over forgefiend argument. Helbrutes are very good for their points. If they get targeted then your losing ~100pts, and with a landraider on the table along with two preds. (and its coversave via the cultists) its going to stick-around for a bit. Now personally I run with lascannons and other long ranged weapons.

Now for the Forgefiend, its more fragile that the hellbrute. And will attract alot of firepowers (as its big and more units will be able to draw LOS to it.)
 

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Berzerkers are better!

I'm not sure what codex you're looking at but you have wrong point values there.

10 x Khorne Berzerkers - 200 points

10 x Khorne Enhanced CSMs - 190 points
- the 190 points are spent on 10 models plus a CCW, IoW and MoK.

So they are 10 points cheaper than Khorne, (bear in mind you spend 30 points extra on Fabius so the Enhanced CSMs are technically 20 points more expensive).

So lets compare assault performance against MEQs

CHARGING
Khorne Berzerkers: 3+ hit, 3+ wound. 41 attacks. ~18.22 wounds. Killing ~ 6.07 on the charge

Khorne Enhanced CSMs: 4+ hit, 2+ wound. 41 attacks. ~17.08 wounds. Killing~ 5.69 on the charge

FOLLOWING ROUNDS

Khorne Berzerkers: 3+ hit, 4+ wound. 21 attacks. ~7.00 wounds. Killing ~ 2.33

Khorne Enhanced CSMs: 4+ hit, 3+ wound. 21 attacks. ~7.00 wounds. Killing~ 2.33

Therefore on average Berzerkers are overall better in assault against MEQs than enhanced Khorne CSMs.

Note: Those extra 30 points wasted on bile could buy the Khorne berserkers chain axes which would give them all AP4 attacks!!!! Making them MOSTROUSLY better in assault than the enhanced CSMs against Tau, Chaos Daemons, Imperial guard, Dark eldar, Tyranids and Orks (as they would ignore armour saves).

MOD EDIT: Removed Individual Points Costs.
 

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I'm not sure what codex you're looking at but you have wrong point values there.

10 x Khorne Berzerkers - 200 points

10 x Khorne Enhanced CSMs - 190 points
- the 190 points are spent on 10 models plus a CCW, IoW and MoK.
Ok, For the Khone Enhanced CSMs, you have spent way to much on them. you only need to spend the 20 on CCW if you want them to keep bolters (which I normally do, but zerkers don't get at all). Which brings us to the 30 extra points.

So they are 10 points cheaper than Khorne, (bear in mind you spend 30 points extra on Fabius so the Enhanced CSMs are technically 20 points more expensive).
Depends on your build, but if you normally do run a 30 point cheeper person that Fab, then they break even.

So lets compare assault performance against MEQs

Therefore on average Berzerkers are overall better in assault against MEQs than enhanced Khorne CSMs..
Against MEQ, yes by 0.38 more wounds. But in the Enchance marine favor, they are scoring, will cause instant death to T3 multiwound critters and heros, and be able to destroy Armour 12+(rear) tanks in CC. That extra flexablity is worth the gain given by 0.38 extra wounds.

MOD EDIT: Removed individual points costs.
 

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Ok, For the Khone Enhanced CSMs, you have spent way to much on them. you only need to spend the 20 on CCW if you want them to keep bolters (which I normally do, but zerkers don't get at all). Which brings us to the 30 extra points.
No for 10 enhanced CSMs with CCWs, Mark of Chaos and Icon of Wrath it costs 190.

& yes 'zerkers don't get bolters but I thought the point was to assault with them?? if you shot bolters you couldn't charge next phase?

Depends on your build, but if you normally do run a 30 point cheeper person that Fab, then they break even.
Yeah I run the aforementioned chaos lord whom is better stats-wise, performance-wise and cheaper than Fabius. These points can be used on more important things!

Against MEQ, yes by 0.38 more wounds. But in the Enchance marine favor, they are scoring, will cause instant death to T3 multiwound critters and heros, and be able to destroy Armour 12+(rear) tanks in CC. That extra flexablity is worth the gain given by 0.38 extra wounds.
Firstly the VAST majority of multiwound T3 creatures have a maximum of a 4+ Armour save.
As I said I can cheaply upgrade the 'zerkers to all have chainaxes with AP4 attacks.
So even here they beat Enhanced CSMs in performance; they'll kill everything they wound!!

Secondly, if you have a Chaos Lord with MoK 'zerkers are a troop choice instead of being elite; they are also scoring!

Thirdly, I appreciate S6 is nice in combat but to state that you need enhanced CSMs in order to combat vehicles is silly. It seems a very expensive option in comparison to a 5pt meltabomb??? (Furthermore they can only glance an Armour 12 on the charge).

MOD EDIT: Please don't list individual point costs next time. It angers the GW lawyers.
 

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& yes 'zerkers don't get bolters but I thought the point was to assault with them?? if you shot bolters you couldn't charge next phase?
Yes, So you replace them on the CSM Squad for free, and thus don't spend the 20 extra points!


Now outside of the list NathanJD posted. I agree Fabius isnt the great choice. But the core list that NathanJD presented does make Fabius useful. And with slight alterations (Use of MOK) it can even be a good army.

Fabius is a very odd HQ choice for the CSM list, and doesn't really have a comparable verson. The Chaos Lord can be built to be better in CC, but his ability to ride in a rhino and only be 6% less survible that a Terminator lord. He also makes more units Fearless and and 'free' +1 S, can be used in some fun ways.

Now, if you really want to run the most effect list via mathammer, neither Zerkers or enhanced CSMs will every make it...

NathanJD- Sorry for hijacking your thread.
 

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Yes, So you replace them on the CSM Squad for free, and thus don't spend the 20 extra points!
Sorry... what?

A CSM normally has a boltgun and bolt pistol, he can take in addition a CCW for 2 point/model. The CCW doesn't replace anything, it is added to his wargear. (Thus he will have a CCW, bolt pistol AND a bolt gun!)

What are you replacing for free?? You are making 0% sense; 20 points for CCW 20 points for MoK and 20 points for IoW.
 

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CSM can also replace the Boltgun, with a CCW .. codex page 95
Ahh found it, I missed that bit! Okay I can see where you have got the 170 points from. :)

& I agree that 'zerkers and enhanced CSMs aren't competitive. I was just showing that 'zerkers performed better in assault.

NathanJD, sorry for the hi-jack!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I’m loving the discussion here, keep it up! It’s given me tons to think about. In response, I’ve developed a few points in favor of Fabius and his Enhanced Warriors.

Challenges!
Any self-respecting master of chaos wants to please the gods with challenges. Also… you kind of have to unless you’ve built a sacrifice-able champion into your unit. And personally, I’d rather throw a p.fist or axe on the champion to let him swing down the rest of the enemy unit unmolested. Don't forget Fabius re-rolls hits against space marines and has a re-rollable 2+ to wound against anything T5 or lower.

Against a basic Chapter Master (WS6 T4 4W 3+/4++), Fabius has a 86% chance to kill with his 7 attacks in a single round of combat. The above mentioned Khorne Lord w/ claw doesn't even register, with a 0.1% chance to do 4 wounds with his 4 attacks. Not only this but Fabius averages 1.7 wounds per round to the Khorne Lord’s 0.75.

Who runs a basic chapter master you ask? Not many but it’s a useful reference point. Unfortunately you’re more likely to run into a Chapter Master on a bike with a 2+/4++, boost-able to a 2++, eternal warrior and a burning blade. Both chaos lords piss themselves in this matchup but even so, Fabius averages 0.85 wounds per round while the Khorne Lord averages 0.19, so you’re still better off with Fabius. Even if the I5 lets you swing an extra round, Khorne still nets less damage than Fabius.

The one challenge in which the Khorne Lord does excel is against the lowly marine sergeant, with a 94% chance to kill from his 4 attacks vs Fabius’s 91%. This is where his I5 really comes into play as most likely he will achieve a flawless victory.

To sum it up, Fabius is massively better in challenges, even against models with Eternal Warrior. However, as the Khorne Lord is cheaper, the addition of the Khorne daemon weapon and VotLW might be a more fair comparison. This lord (165pts for terminator, khorne, AoBF and VotLW) beats Fabius pretty handily in the 2+ eternal warrior Chapter Master scenario. But, he's still a bit worse against characters without eternal warrior. Although the ability to totally wreck infantry outside of a challenge probably makes the Khorne lord a better choice than Fabius. If you don't factor in Enhanced Warriors that is :).

Points Efficiency
I don’t think it’s fair to straight up compare Enhanced Warriors to Berzerkers as Berzerkers are much more expensive so if the codex designers had any sense, they should be better. I’ve done some math on the points efficiency of the two as any lack the Enhanced Warriors have could, in theory, be made up elsewhere in the list. I didn't do any setups with bolters, but it should be mentioned that for a squad of 10, bolter+bp+ccw will cost you 18pts (not 20) as the champion already has all 3.

We’ll start off with 10 Enhanced Warriors with bp/ccw and compare them to 10 Berzerkers. The Warriors cost 140pts and average 3.44 dead MEQs on the charge, which translates to 40.65 points per dead MEQ. The Berzerkers at 200pts, average 5.17 dead MEQs, translating to 41.03 points per dead MEQ. So, at their most basic they’re roughly equivalent in this respect but the Warriors pull way ahead in resiliency per point.

Next up we’ll compare the same Berzerkers to some Khorne marked Enhanced warriors. 160pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 35.12/MEQ. Now we’re really starting to see the Warriors pull ahead.

Now for the banner. We’ll compare Khorne marked Enhanced Warriors w/ banner to Berzerkers with a banner. Warriors: 180pts / 5.69 dead MEQs = 31.61/MEQ. Berzerkers: 220pts / 6.07 dead MEQs = 36.22/MEQ. Again, you’re getting a better deal on both damage and resiliency per point. Below I’ve listed these all for convenience:

10 Warriors: 140pts / 3.44 dead MEQs = 40.65/MEQ
10 Khorne Warriors: 160pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 35.12/MEQ
10 Khorne Warriors + banner: 180pts / 5.69 dead MEQs = 31.61/MEQ
10 Berzerkers: 200pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 43.90/MEQ
10 Berzerkers + banner: 220pts / 6.07 dead MEQs = 36.22/MEQ

Now for the bling. @Uveron’s mention of the balestar gave me an idea of adding a Sorcerer to the unit. For simplicity I’ll just list all the combinations out. The Sorcerer’s only equipment is the balestar, force sword and bolt pistol, putting him at 85 points. These calculations are assuming prescience was cast on the unit.

9 Warriors + Sorcerer: 212pts / 6.33 dead MEQs = 33.47/MEQ
9 Khorne Warriors + Sorcerer: 230pts / 7.83 dead MEQs = 29.36/MEQ
9 Khorne Warriors + banner + Sorcerer: 250pts / 9.98 dead MEQs = 25.17/MEQ
9 Berzerkers + Sorcerer: 266pts / 7.15 dead MEQs = 37.21/MEQ
9 Berzerkers + banner + Sorcerer: 286pts / 9.53 dead MEQs = 30.01/MEQ

As you can see, here the Warriors pull even farther ahead as a re-roll has a greater benefit to a 4+ than a 3+.

In summary, Berzerkers continue to be arguably the worst power armored unit in the game.

Monstrous Creatures
There’s no contest here. Fabius will make a mess of Riptides and Wraithknights.

All that being said, any Chaos Lord without 12” movement + AoBF or Daemonheart is sub-par and probably not competitive.

So, without further adieu, here's the updated list:

Crimson Slaughter + Deamons + Helcult (1850)
Fabius Bile - 165
9 Chaos Marines: plasma, combi-plasma, bolters, bolt pistols, ccws, melta bombs - 173
Rhino - 35
@Uveron, while it pains me to lose the 3rd plasma gun, you're right. Gotta spread the fearless love around.

Sorcerer: force maul, bolt pistol, balestar, level 2 - 110
9 Chaos Marines: enhanced, khorne, banner, bolt pistols, ccws, power fist - 190
Land Raider: dirge caster - 225
I'm pretty torn between a p.fist and axe for the champion. S10 AP2 is irresistible to me but S6 AP2 with an extra attack is probably good enough in most cases. I chose a maul over a sword for the Sorcerer as he's pretty screwed against 3+ lords anyway. I also paid for mastery level 2 so I can both prescience and force-out models. My rolls will go to prescience and biomancy.

3 Bikes: 2 melta guns, melta bombs - 95
Due to points-shuffling these got downgraded to dedicated anti-tank.

Helldrake: baleflamer - 170

Predator: autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launcher, combi-bolter - 112

Predator: autocannon, lascannons - 115
@Uveron, I find the tri-las predator to be prohibitively expensive. Plus prescience is wasted on the already twin-linked turret.

Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
@Hugh1992, I personally don't consider horrors an attacking unit unless you're massing them. You don't want to be giving enemy units FNP. Their sole purpose is to get a 2+ re-rollable go to ground on a home objective while still being able to cast prescience on the nearby Predators. If they ever get to actually fire the quad-gun at full BS that's just gravy.

Helbrute: multi-melta, power fist, heavy flamer - 115
Cultists: flamer - 55
Cultists: flamer - 55
@Uveron, Great idea on the heavy flamer. Last time I used this setup I took 3 turns to chew through a single IG command squad. I'm seriously hoping this draws fire away from my other vehicles as with the 3+ cover I believe it will be a waste of my opponent's points. This is of course ignoring Tau and IG who could care less about cover.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry @Zion, is that in reference to my post? I could pull the totals from it but they would still be easily attainable by multiplying MEQ dead by points/MEQ. 2 values which do not exist in the codex but are needed for the discussion. Please advise.
 

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Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
@Hugh1992, I personally don't consider horrors an attacking unit unless you're massing them. You don't want to be giving enemy units FNP. Their sole purpose is to get a 2+ re-rollable go to ground on a home objective while still being able to cast prescience on the nearby Predators. If they ever get to actually fire the quad-gun at full BS that's just gravy.

Why don't you just use plague bearers??? Them having the 'Shrouded' ability will grant them 2+ cover save behind the Aegis defence line without having to go to ground!!
 

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Because daemons of tzeentch get to re-roll any failed saves, so effectively they have a 2+ re-rollable save behind an ADL if they go to ground.

List looks very interesting! Would be very interested to hear how it plays out!

Also, what Zion means is you have displayed the individual points costs of the units, while summing up the points, eg. Combined troops = ..., Helcult total is..., posting the full breakdown of points is against forum rules.
 

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Sorry @Zion, is that in reference to my post? I could pull the totals from it but they would still be easily attainable by multiplying MEQ dead by points/MEQ. 2 values which do not exist in the codex but are needed for the discussion. Please advise.
I already edited the posts in question. It had to do with ones that broke down points totals for the units. Total costs are fine, but an option by option breakdown is not.
 
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