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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is what I’m working on for my 1850 list. I played a guy who placed in the top 10 at the NOVA open today, Necrons and Tau. He maxed his points, I scored 5, but I didn’t get tabled. How do you stop tanks from being punched to death? I can’t figure it out. I love my tanks, LOVE THEM, and won’t give them up. I love the formation, but I need to figure out how to make sure they survive. PLEASE HELP!!!!!


Do I just run conscripts and bubble wrap the tanks? Any advice is GREATLY appreciated!



CAD
CCS-Chimera
Platoon
PCS- Vendetta
Commissar
2 Squads
HWT- 3 Autocannons
SWT- 3 Flamers, Vendetta
Vets- Chimera, 3 Plasmaguns


Emperor’s Fist Armoured Company Formation
3 Enginseers
Pask Punisher, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Exterminator
2 Executioners
Battle Tank
 

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Thordis
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hm camo nets could help for ranged weapons, automatic 6+ save, not much but it helped me a lot when I tested it.

on another note, I would advice dropping 1 plasma gun from the veteran squad. if they are going to ride around in a chimera you can have 2 plasma guns and use the top hatch. no need to leave the transport anymore.

about tanks. I am not sure why you would bubblewrap them. try to present your front armour as much as possible, and spread them around. the 12" BS 4 is a very tempting buff but if you keep all your tanks close together its gonna make for one big target for close combat units coming from assault vehicles.
in my experience leman russ tanks can take a pretty big beating before giving up the ghost. untill the enemy decides to focus all their firepower on them.

the only downside is that Tau and Necrons are basicly 1# on the list of vehicle killing armies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks @Haskanael! I ran into a similar problem when I come up against ANY CC army. Shooting I can handle with front AV14 but in CC anything hits rear armor either AV10 or AV11. So anything strength 4 or 5 has a chance to glance. Also scarabs glance on a 6, as do plaguebearers with "rust".

I like the idea of camo netting, then I can shoot and pop smoke in the same turn with the tank commander order, giving a 5+ but can that be used in close combat too?

With the new Emperor's Fist formation, GW is trying to make Guard a little more competitive so there has to be a way to stop models from getting so close. I always hear of bubble wrap but can't find an explanation of what it actually means.

:cray:
 

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Thordis
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Thanks @Haskanael! I ran into a similar problem when I come up against ANY CC army. Shooting I can handle with front AV14 but in CC anything hits rear armor either AV10 or AV11. So anything strength 4 or 5 has a chance to glance. Also scarabs glance on a 6, as do plaguebearers with "rust".

I like the idea of camo netting, then I can shoot and pop smoke in the same turn with the tank commander order, giving a 5+ but can that be used in close combat too?

With the new Emperor's Fist formation, GW is trying to make Guard a little more competitive so there has to be a way to stop models from getting so close. I always hear of bubble wrap but can't find an explanation of what it actually means.

:cray:
yeah bubble wrap is basicly putting infantry around your tanks, personaly I find it inneficient and a waste of points. I try to keep on the move. and make sure I have other units that are scary in my army.

here is a list I tried in 2 battles last weekend. it met with mild succes while suffering a devastating loss against Necrons. (honestly even their basic weapons glance our tanks to death and those wraiths.. those wraiths... and all the bloody re animation protocoal safes and what not)
but a very strong win against a dark angel Deathwing/raven wing list.

"Emperor's fist" armoured company
Techpriest Enginseer.
1st squadron:
Tank commander, Leman russ vanquisher, Lascannon, camo netting.
Leman Russ vanquisher, Lascannon, camo netting.
2nd squadron:
Leman Russ battle tank, Heavy bolter, camo netting.
3rd squadron
Leman Russ Domolisher, Heay bolter, multi melta's, camo netting.
4th squadron
Leman Russ executioner, Plasma cannons, camo netting.
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"Emperor's blade" assault company
Regimental command carapace armour, 2x plasma guns.
veterans 2x melta guns, carapace armour.
veterans 2x plasma guns, carapace armour.
veterans 2x plasma guns, carapace armour.
4 chimera's.
Bane wolf.
Devil Dog.
1850 points

the entire list is based on staying on the move, capturing and holding objectives and then moving on. while packing a fair amount of firepower.
and occasionaly ramming and tank shocking (not something I can recomend against necrons tho)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
"Emperor's blade" assault company
Regimental command carapace armour, 2x plasma guns.
veterans 2x melta guns, carapace armour.
veterans 2x plasma guns, carapace armour.
veterans 2x plasma guns, carapace armour.
4 chimera's.
Bane wolf.
Devil Dog.
1850 points

the entire list is based on staying on the move, capturing and holding objectives and then moving on. while packing a fair amount of firepower.
and occasionaly ramming and tank shocking (not something I can recomend against necrons tho)
I really like your list! I read somewhere that the Emperor's Blade Assault Company only gives objective secured to the troops, not the transports. You could make the same formation with a CAD and the transports would allow you to get objective secured but you would lose preferred enemy.

If this is true, I don't know how I feel about it. But I can't believe I didn't think of using this. If I can get confirmation about the transports I will run right out an buy a hellhound kit or three:grin:
 

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I read somewhere that the Emperor's Blade Assault Company only gives objective secured to the troops, not the transports.
This is specifically stated in the rules for the Formation, I was almost excited for it as well. For reference,



Also you can't take Pask in the Armoured Company, only in the Battle Group Command. Note the exception for Pask for the Command Formation and not for the Company one:



As for your tanks getting punched up in CC: that's the way she goes. You gotta get ruthless with your tank selections, you need to have a devastating shooting phase because it's all you really have. Heavy tanks will never out run anything no matter how hard you try. Bubblewrap can be ChimeraVets and terrain just as easily as it can be infantry units. Check it out:



Vets set up to slow things down and shoot, terrain on the side to force tests and slow down that flank. As the Orks advanced I could barely even move, but you can see here my front line once destroyed still acted as bubble wrap for cover saves and difficult terrain tests for the Boyz. Not to mention I steadily moved my Leman Russ's back into the corner even though they started off much closer:



Plans never hold together much past the second turn, but if you keep paying attention to how and why you're losing you might just be able to play better with your list as opposed to constantly switching it up looking for 'better' combinations. I won that game because the game before I wasn't moving my army back in the face of the advance and I got ran hard. It might not work the same again, but it's something to consider with all tank armies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
@ntaw Where does it say Pask can't be taken in the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company? I'm looking at the book right now and it says no restrictions, as well as allowing it in Battle Scribe. Am I missing something somewhere?
 

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Look at the picture I posted. The Command Formation has a caviat saying he can replace the Tank Commander, the Armoured Company does not. I can post a bunch of other Formations that have similar restrictions on Unique Characters, but have done so several times at this point and am feeling lazy.

GW also has the Emperor's Fist boxed set pictured with 20 Guardsmen (instead of 50) saying that it's 'all you need' for that Formation, and Battlescribe is not a valid source for rules no matter how pretty the interface is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Look at the picture I posted. The Command Formation has a caviat saying he can replace the Tank Commander, the Armoured Company does not. I can post a bunch of other Formations that have similar restrictions on Unique Characters, but have done so several times at this point and am feeling lazy.

GW also has the Emperor's Fist boxed set pictured with 20 Guardsmen (instead of 50) saying that it's 'all you need' for that Formation, and Battlescribe is not a valid source for rules no matter how pretty the interface is.
Just confirmed with one of the guys who run the NOVA Open that he in fact can be. There are no restrictions on the formation. He's a main character in the Mont'ka book as well so it makes sense.

Not trying to argue but I believe you're mistaken mate.
 

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Not trying to argue but I believe you're mistaken mate.
Always a conversation my friend. I'm more interested in getting rules straight than being right or wrong. That being said,

I can post numerous examples of Formations stipulating and not stipulating the allowance for Unique Characters to be swapped in place of a generic title. To steal the example from the same book series we're talking about with a little copy and pasting from the other thread since it wasn't discussed there much, this Formation states that only Shrike and no other Uniques may be taken in place of the Formation's Captain requirement:



Whereas this Formation from the same book has a very different listing of options:



I believe those stipulations are there/not there for a reason, gentlemanly agreements and tournament rulings for whatever reason aside. If you look at Formations in the books you have at your disposal I'm sure you'll see the same trend. Can you (or your friend at NOVA) explain why we should ignore it when we see the Pask caveat in one Formation as a replacement for a Tank Commander and not in another? I'm open to hearing otherwise and seeing through to the truth here, but so far people have just told me I'm wrong without saying why.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I contacted a GW manager as well. He can be added because he is a "tank commander", specifically an upgrade to one. It states the formations needs a tank commander, which he is. That's the explanation I got from both the NOVA guy and the GW guy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The GW guy said he was written in the Battle group command as a reminder, not a special rule. Just like you can always take Pask as a commander. Same with Castellan and the shield company, he may replace the company commander.

I emailed the FAQ to get written confirmation, just so I don't have to call GW every time someone questions it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Guess his upgrade status overrides his Unique status. Works out to the benefit of the Formation, that's for sure!
So I woke up this morning to about 4 emails from various people about this. They are split on how to read it. Some are saying it was noted in the Battle Group as a reminder that Pask and Castellan can be taken in the formation and not noted in the others to save room, sort of like a full citation the first time you put it in then it continues for the rest of the article, while others are agreeing with you. The more I think about it, I can see both sides now. Hopefully I receive a response from the FAQ people, because without Pask I need to change my entire list. If/when I get a response I'll PM you with a copy for your own use, if you care or not.

I just wish GW would be clearer at all times and not leave this up to discussion, they do it much too often.

Merry Christmas all!
 

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I just wish GW would be clearer at all times and not leave this up to discussion, they do it much too often.
Amen brotha. I'd love to take Pask in this Formation, but to me allowing it offers a slippery slope of interpretation for other Formations. Since I only play friendly it would never be an issue on any table top I share on but if you're playing for winning like at tournaments or other events I can very well see this being an issue. If it's 'just a reminder' in this Formation it must be that way across the board, right? How would we tell otherwise when it's literal and when not, why did they even put it there at all? Jerks.

Merry Crimbo to you too dude :drinks:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm going to get to the bottom of this, for sure! I emailed ITC FAQ as well. What pisses me off the most is the damn picture on page 160 has Pask in it! That would be the ultimate screw off, putting him in the picture and not allowing it....like a girl who looks great inside the bar but the ne t morning you find out her name was Jim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Behold, the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon:



Featuring all you need for...wait....uh....

:laugh:
Maybe it is! I know some were interpreting it as 5 squads, although it says infantry squads. That's a PCS (1), 2 infantry squads (2&3), and 2 heavy weapons squads (4&5). I'm waiting for an FAQ. It just doesn't make sense, once again, how they wrote it. What is shown makes sense because it's an actual platoon.
 
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