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Discussion Starter #1
Would like for this list to be an all comers list. I have these models currently and have another $200 to spend to make it stronger if needed. Please let me know how you would spend the money to make the list better.

HQ

Belial
Epistolary Validus


Troops

Deathwing Terminators - Assault Cannon, Chainfist
Deathwing Terminators - Plasma Cannon, (2) Chainfist
Deathwing Terminators - Lightning Claws, (4) Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Tactical Squad (10 Marines) - Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter


Fast Attack

Assault Squad (10 Marines) - Power Sword
Nephilim Jetfighter


Heavy Support

Vindicator - Siege Shield


Weighs in at 1841 C7C Please. For 2k I would add another Vindicator or another 10 man tac squad.
 

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Deathwing Terminators - Lightning Claws, (4) Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
This you can't do, as per the FAQ that states the lack of ability for the DW sergeant to exchange his wargear.

Tactical Squad (10 Marines) - Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
Drop the pistol, they just don't have enough return for 15 points. I cut mine off the DV model real quick like, but I've never liked PPs save for the look of them.

Assault Squad (10 Marines) - Power Sword
Really? Not that there's anything wrong with taking this squad, but they really are only good at dealing with light armoured infantry. If they get stuck in with a dedicated CC unit they'll get blown out of the water. Personally I'd go tri-wing here and take RW bikes over an assault squad. BA are great allies for DA if you want scoring RAS as well.

For 2k I would add another Vindicator or another 10 man tac squad.
If you combine the scout squad you lose a heavy weapon, but the squad is much more survivable. Camo cloaks are just so crucial in keeping your scouts alive when they're on an objective as well. This would also free up the Troops FOC slot you'd need...though I suppose you do gain access to the whole double FOC at 2k. Two Vindicators is always better than one.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
This you can't do, as per the FAQ that states the lack of ability for the DW sergeant to exchange his wargear.

Thanks for the heads up. Im new to the game and forgot about the FAQ rule.

Drop the pistol, they just don't have enough return for 15 points. I cut mine off the DV model real quick like, but I've never liked PPs save for the look of them.

Will do

Really? Not that there's anything wrong with taking this squad, but they really are only good at dealing with light armoured infantry. If they get stuck in with a dedicated CC unit they'll get blown out of the water. Personally I'd go tri-wing here and take RW bikes over an assault squad. BA are great allies for DA if you want scoring RAS as well.

How about a tactical Squad, I do not have any bikes at the moment?

If you combine the scout squad you lose a heavy weapon, but the squad is much more survivable. Camo cloaks are just so crucial in keeping your scouts alive when they're on an objective as well. This would also free up the Troops FOC slot you'd need...though I suppose you do gain access to the whole double FOC at 2k. Two Vindicators is always better than one.

I will try this out both ways and see how it goes.
 

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In a DA army I see more of a place for a tactical squad over an assault squad, to be quite honest. I would even use vanguard veterans in the FA slot instead of RAS because they can assault the turn they arrive from deep strike provided they're within range. The squad will only be scoring if you're playing the scouring....but maybe I'm just spoiled by my BA army.

It's all about working things back and forth, like with the scout squad. I've played dozens of subtle variations of the same list trying to ween out the useful from the useless. Gotta find the right fit for your play style.
 

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Rattlehead
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Belial
Epistolary Validus
No idea who Validus is. Belial has Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, I assume.


Troops

Deathwing Terminators - Assault Cannon, Chainfist
Deathwing Terminators - Plasma Cannon, (2) Chainfist
Deathwing Terminators - Lightning Claws, (4) Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Tactical Squad (10 Marines) - Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter
Scouts are seriously crap. Swap them out and drop the Plasma Pistol + one Chainfist for another Tactical Squad with Plasma Gun/Missile Launcher. I'd put a Missile Launcher on the other Tactical Squad too (although if you have 10pts at the end, upgrade to Lascannons). Take the Deathwing Assault Squad as 4x Thunder Hammers, don't bother with Lightning Claws. Take Plasma Cannons on both standard squads.

Fast Attack

Assault Squad (10 Marines) - Power Sword
Nephilim Jetfighter
Assault Marines are crap. Replace them with a pair of Rhinos for the Tacticals, and then I'd be tempted to add two 5-man Tactical Squads with a Lascannon apiece without Rhinos. Nephilim is godawful, replace it with a 6-man unit of Ravenwing Bikers with 2 Meltaguns.

Heavy Support

Vindicator - Siege Shield
Vindicator isn't bad, but I'm not really seeing how it supports the list and we need anti-air. At 1850 we could really do with some Allies for AA as DA have such bad AA themselves, but having a large 2+ presence and everything else mech'd or maneuvrable, you should be fine with just an Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun and then 35pts of upgrades somewhere - if your Librarian doesn't already have Terminator Armour, I'd give him such.

Midnight
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
New list

HQ - 285
Belial - th/ss
Librarian

Elites 120
Dreadnought - tlac x2

Troops - 1135
Deathwing knights
Deathwing terminators - plasma cannon / chain fist
Deathwing terminators - plasma cannon / chain fist
Tactical squad (10) plasma gun / lascannon / Rhino
Tactical squad (10) plasma gun / lascannon / Rhino
Tactical squad (5) to man the Icarus lascannon

Fast Attack - 181
Ravenwing bikers (6) - melta gun x2

Fortification 85
Aegis defense line - lascannon


1846

I feel that this is better, would you agree.
 

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I'd still take a scout squad with camo cloaks and sniper rifles over a 5-man tactical squad behind the aegis, just because of the 2+ cover save. Cheap and very effective objective holders.

I'd also take a Devastator squad with x4 missile launchers and some ablative wounds (so maybe a squad of 6 or 7) behind the aegis with the Libby casting prescience on them: You effectively get 4 twin-linked krak missile shots per turn, so even when snap firing against fliers you have 8 chances to roll a 6. And when you do hit you are hitting at strength 8 as opposed to flakk missiles which are strength 7. Couple this with the Libby or scout sergeant firing the quad gun/icarus and you have pretty effective anti-air without having to waste points on the overcosted flakk missiles. And even if your opponent doesn't bring fliers, you still have 4 twin linked krak or frag missiles to fire per turn against hordes, MEQ or transports. It's a very effective little firebase and everything in it gets a cover save. They will die to deep striking flamer squads and ignores cover weapons though, so it is far from invincible.

That said, as ntaw points out, it's really a matter of working out a list that fits the playstyle you use and enjoy. The above is just one way to play them. I use a little firebase behind the ADL, then lots of drop podders/deep strikers to break the enemy lines and some fast attack units. But then I use BA allies, so this is just one of many ways to use them...I think your revised list is better though: Ravenwing bikers over Assault Squads is a good call.
 

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Just some thoughts:

DW knights do not become Troops choices, they are always Elites. Only DW terminator squads become troops.

If you can find 5 points and your friends are cool with it that Dreadnought could be a Mortis one, which means that if it doesn't move the previous turn it has Skyfire/Interceptor. For a 5 point difference.

Straken's right about the Scouts manning the ICL. The improved save makes a big difference, but only until a Heavy Flamer gets to your backline. I would very much suggest making lists with both of these squads doing what they do and see which one you like more.
 

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And here I was thinking maybe someone would put together a competitive list without an ADL.

As someone mentioned, knights are always elites. Is Belial going to deep strike with the knights? It's not that bad of a choice as he would get the 5T (majority toughness from Wall of shields), and you want your knights as close as possible to get them to CQC before they're all shot dead.

The ravenwing squad is good because you can DW strike on turn 2 after theyv'ed moved into position. So you can guarantee safe deep strike, as 1850 can become a crowded board after the first move depending on terrain.

As someone said, if your opponents are cool with it, make that dread a mortis with auto-cannons. I don't hate 2x Las dreads, but I just prefer las/missile.
 

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My DA/BA lists have stopped using the ADL in lieu of Mortis Dreads. I have one TLAC and one TLLC that have been having some fun in the back being babysat by a 10 man plasma'd up tactical squad. It's way more expensive, but I just can't argue with the results.
 

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Rattlehead
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HQ - 285
Belial - th/ss
Librarian
What does the Librarian have? Should be Level 1 in Terminator Armour by my maths, which is fine. Roll on Divination, you'll usually swap out for the Primaris unless you've got Misfortune, Perfect Timing or maybe the 'I reroll everything' power.

Elites 120
Dreadnought - tlac x2
Deathwing knights
Solid, although I'd swap out the Knights for basic TH/SS Deathwing due to their Scoring status. Usually I'd go for Knights, but it's a close run thing, and if you're taking Belial to make the basic dudes Scoring then that tips the balance in the Hammers' favour.

Troops - 1135
Deathwing terminators - plasma cannon / chain fist
Deathwing terminators - plasma cannon / chain fist
Tactical squad (10) plasma gun / lascannon / Rhino
Tactical squad (10) plasma gun / lascannon / Rhino
Tactical squad (5) to man the Icarus lascannon
All of this deeply pleases me.

Fast Attack - 181
Ravenwing bikers (6) - melta gun x2
This also pleases me. I've been running a unit of 5, it's apples to oranges but if you need the extra points, this is where you shave them off.

Fortification 85
Aegis defense line - lascannon
And here I'd shave those points - the Icarus is pretty mediocre compared to the small investiture in the Quad-Gun. The Lascannon is fairly unreliable, whereas the Quad-Gun will almost always get four hits and is much better at bringing down light Flyers such as Dakkajets and Scythes - heavier stuff like the Heldrake isn't much fazed by the Quad-Gun, but neither do they care about the Icarus, so it's a moot point.

I'd still take a scout squad with camo cloaks and sniper rifles over a 5-man tactical squad behind the aegis, just because of the 2+ cover save. Cheap and very effective objective holders.
2+? I'm seeing 4+ and +1 cover making 3+, which is the Tactical's armour anyway. I'd go for Tacticals purely for the accurate heavy weapon and increased durability.

Midnight
 

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2+? I'm seeing 4+ and +1 cover from camo cloaks making 3+, which is the Tactical's armour anyway.
2+ if you go to ground behind a Defense Line. Not that they'll be doing much other than holding an Objective that turn, and if you fired the ILC/QG with skyfire you may as well go to ground sometimes. Marines would get that same save as well. Trick is, Marines will get a 4+ 'natural' cover save as opposed to the Scout's 3+ cover save. Much better at making saves from the long bomb and potentially high AP weapons coming downfield at the squad. I know when I face my bud's IG army that little bit of better cover save has made all the difference against his tanks.
 

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2+ if you go to ground behind a Defense Line. Not that they'll be doing much other than holding an Objective that turn, and if you fired the ILC/QG with skyfire you may as well go to ground sometimes. Marines would get that same save as well. Trick is, Marines will get a 4+ 'natural' cover save as opposed to the Scout's 3+ cover save. Much better at making saves from the long bomb and potentially high AP weapons coming downfield at the squad. I know when I face my bud's IG army that little bit of better cover save has made all the difference against his tanks.
Tacticals also get the 2+ if they GTG. If you're being hit by IG, it's either a Battle Cannon in which case, Go to Ground and get rid of it with Meltas, or it's artillery, in which case you don't get a cover save either way.

Midnight
 

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Trick is, Marines will get a 4+ 'natural' cover save as opposed to the Scout's 3+ cover save. Much better at making saves from the long bomb and potentially high AP weapons coming downfield at the squad. I know when I face my bud's IG army that little bit of better cover save has made all the difference against his tanks.
Yeah exactly. They cost exactly the same (70pts), but I am preferring the improved cover save without having to go to ground, plus the long range of sniper rifles - I have tried using a 5-man barebones tactical squad, but with a 24" range they never really fired at anything until late game (people generally ignore the firebase ADL once they realise the cover saves are wasting their firepower).
Of course, against specific units e.g a Manticore, the Scouts are boned (barrage weapon, center marker LOS, AP4) and the MEQ are better. But against the AP3 barrage weapons MEQ are also boned, so there isn't much in it unless you know you are likely to face Manticores (go with Marines), anything else I prefer the range of sniper rifles.....As for Battlecanons, sadly no one takes them anymore since the nerf to ordnance Russ. Not even seeing them in fun games anymore as it's easy to switch it for the superior Executioner.
 

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Tacticals also get the 2+ if they GTG.
Marines would get that same save as well.
In my quote above your response :wink:

If you're being hit by IG, it's either a Battle Cannon in which case, Go to Ground and get rid of it with Meltas, or it's artillery, in which case you don't get a cover save either way.
My buddy runs this all plasma variant of the Leman Russ whose main weapon is Heavy 3 Blast at AP2. Then there's the PC sponsons... that thing is a day ruiner.
 

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Yeah that would be the leman russ executioner :) i bought the fw executioner turrents to replace the redundant battlecannons on my russ...heavy 3 ap2 blast, plus heavy 1 ap2 blast sponsons per turn is nice...you can also give it camo netting and put it behind an aegis for 3+ cover save. Power armoured av14 tank is very nice... Eye-watering expensive though, and if someone fires a manticore it is losing its save and bang goes 250pts...maybe.
 

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Eye-watering expensive though, and if someone fires a manticore it is losing its save and bang goes 250pts...maybe.
Where do you think my MG RAS are pointed when my drop pod comes in T1? ...though sometimes the dice gods think it's funny to present me with snake eyes. I think my dice have been corrupted by Slaneesh..
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thank you all for the input. If you could add $200.00 worth of stuff to the list to bring it to 2k or to bolster the 1,850 list what would you do without changing the core of the list too much?

As far as the ADL I was thinking of running the lascannon for av14 defense and the quadgun for flyers depending on what the meta of wherever I end up playing is. Is this not a sound tactic?

:shok: So much information to learn so fast. I have a game setup for tuesday with someone willing to show me the ropes.

My idea for tactics is to run the tacticals in their rhinos to objectives. Deepstrike belial and terminators on some juicy target behind their line. Hopefully drawing first blood and linebreaker. Park the tac squad or scout squad behind the adl with the dreadnought for long range support. Flank with bikes and use melta for any other heavy support that needs dealing with.

See any flaws in that? Other than the obvious that it may not work that way in some scenarios?
 

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You got some sound general tactics, but without knowing what you're facing it's hard to advise any further.

Midnight's DA lists definitely made me want to try multiple Mortis instead of an ADL and I have been getting great results. I picked up a couple Assault on Black Reach Dreadnoughts and the specific arms I wanted off eBay. It cost me around $60 for both pieces, one with TLLC and one with TLAC.

Moving up to 2k, I'd drop the ADL and the 5 man tactical squad to add in a third DW squad and a second Dreadnought (Mortis, of course). DW would be ~250 points depending on kit and the TLLC Mortis is 155 to the ADL+Tac's 155 if my maths are on.
 
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