Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hy all!

I'm about to start a daemons army, but before i start spending money, i'd like to hear your opinions about my evil plans.

HQ
Bloodthrister w/ Might
Bloodthrister w/ Might

Elites
6 Bloodcrushers w/fury, icon, instrument
6 Bloodcrushers w/fury, icon, instrument
6 Bloodcrushers w/fury, icon, instrument

Troops
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince w/ Hide
Daemon Prince w/ Hide

1840 points if i'm correct.

The idea is simply to owerwhelm the opponent's firepower with BCs, and beat him good in CC. The Thristers go for vehicles, the princes are to guard the troops.

Opinions, suggestions, experiences are welcome!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
So, what's coming in which wave? Remember, you HAVE to deep strike the whole army, so only half of those will be on the table in the beginning. And with no shooting in this army whatsoever, that's going to be a very, VERY painful first turn.

A lot of times I find my Bloodthirsters end up just being Lascannon magnets unless I can throw a Soul Grinder or two out there to show up and be scarier. In general Bloodthirsters tend to disappoint me, it's way too easy to kill them for their point cost. If you weren't obviously going for a Khorne themed army (nothing wrong with that) I would suggest Great Unclean Ones instead. If you want to keep the Khorne theme, though, just be very careful deploying them and make sure the Bloodcrushers or Princes look like better targets for the enemy's big guns.

Another thought is that, while Might is very nice on a Bloodthirster, it might be worth it to take Death Strike on them in this list instead. It's a relatively crappy ranged attack, but you at least might be able to shake or stun a vehicle with big guns that would otherwise shoot your Bloodthirsters off the table the turn they appear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thx for the answer.

Wave 1:
2 Bloodthristers, 2 Bloodcrushers, 1 Bloodletters
Wave 2:
1 Bloodcrusher, 2 Bloodletters, 2 Princes.

And yeah, i considered a shooty army, coming down and causing heavy damages, but all the ranged attacks seemed pretty disappointing for me.
So instead i have to stand the first rounds (crushers are great for this IMO), and then get to CC.

Actually I'm not after a Khorne army - i simply found them the most useful - so go ahead, and advise anything nasty. =D

On the table, i confront loads of Land Raiders, SM variants have at least 2 in most cases.
So i feel like i HAVE TO deploy 2 Thristers, because nothing else really threatens those taxies.

Bloodcrushers are an obvious choice IMO. Okay, they are slow, but can take all that fire they get on the way. And with 3 units of Crushers, 2 Thrishers, even twinLash CSM struggles to avoid everything i throw at him.

For the troops, first i tried Plaguebearers, but literally everything caused them problem in CC. Even single attack bikes caught them, and blocked them in movement for turns. So i chose to use Letters, who are little more vulnerable, on the other hand, you don't really want to get near them.
So the opponent have to take everything down by shooting.

By the way, how do you counter mass LR spams, which i feel the hardest with the daemons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
Well, if you're NOT intentionally going for a Khorne army....

For most armies, Horrors are surprisingly effective. They may only be BS 3, but with all those shots and with the AP 4, most armies will be pretty devastated by a unit of 5-10 of them. Unfortunately, there's only one type of army they suck against.... Space Marines. So, in your particular case, you have the right idea.

Sadly, against MEQs, Bloodletters really are your best best for dealing damage, despite how squishy they are. However, they're really only going to be able to handle it if you have them in large units, at least 10 (or 8 if I'm feeling fluffy. Blood for the Blood God!) Plaguebearers, on the other hand, make up for not being able to break through their armor by being both cheaper and one of the best objective-holders in the game. If you want to give your Plaguebearers another chance, here's one piece of advice for them--since they're so hard to kill, don't worry as much about bringing them in in cover. Just drop them either right on top of the objective you want them to hold, or drop them in front of whatever you actually want them fighting. Still, if you want them for killing power rather than objective holding, Bloodletters are still the way to go.

You might also want to consider Daemonettes. While the Bloodletters will do more reliable damage, Daemonettes are faster, have higher Initiative, and their Rending makes them almost as good at killing MEQs. Heck, I've even killed a couple Dreadnaughts with them.

You have the right idea with the Bloodcrushers, although if you're dealing with Land Raiders, I'd only take one big unit of them. You're right in that LR spam is extremely difficult for Daemons. Unless you can get a Monstrous Creature or Soul Grinder close enough to smash them, that'll definitely give you issues.

There is one fantastic way to deal with Land Raiders that's often overlooked though--Flamers. Breath of Chaos automatically glances on a 4+. Now for transports and such that sounds pretty crappy, but an automatic glancing hit on AV 14 on the first turn can be pretty sexy. Even if you're not lucky enough to get 2 Immobilized results to Wreck them, you can at least shake them up a bit to limit their shooting. So, if the average SM list you face has 2 Land Raiders, 2 units of 3-5 Flamers to drop in front of them and glance them into submission while your MCs get ready to finish them off can be a HUGE help.

For that matter, have you considered Unclean Ones over Bloodthirsters? Even with all their upgrades they're cheaper than a bare-bones Bloodthirster. They're slower and don't quite do as much in CC, but they're much harder to kill, have that same Breath of Chaos attack I was talking about with the Flamers, and it's less tragic on your army's point total if it gets killed.

As long as you don't invest too heavily in them, Screamers can also deal with tanks pretty well. Jetbikes with melta bombs. 2 units at minimum size should get the job done if you don't want to take Flamers, as long as you keep them safely behind cover when they come in.

Also, don't underestimate the Soul Grinder. It's pretty much amazing. Most people only go with Phlegm, but I find Tongue is also nice, since it's the only other somewhat effective way to dealing with AV14, and you might get lucky as you march him up to smash the thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
I agree with the above. Soul grinders are just awesome, and alot cheaper than a kitted DP. The thirster is fun, when it actually gets to where you need it to be. Otherwise its a big expensive target. I like the GUO, also, I've found alot of people ignore the Keeper of Secrets. He's not as killy as the thirster, not as shooty as the big chicken and not as tough as the Guo. Flamers are awesome. Also, Fiends are one of the best units in the codex, IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,166 Posts
3 five man troop units are VERY small for an objective game. I'd say they need to be 10 apeice to gain survivability.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
Oh, another thing I forgot about. Now that they have Seeker models out there, they're a nice way to get the destructive potential of Daemonettes with a lot more speed, while still using your Troops slots for either objective-holding Plaguebearers or more reliable anti-armor Bloodletters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
539 Posts
bloodletters are easly cleaned out. Just from my experience all you have to do is shoot them with bolters and they dissapear very quickly. I have also yet to see soul grinders be effective. They are a vehicle and vehicles dont fit in with a deep striking army....not at all......maybe if u ran 3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
However, they're really only going to be able to handle it if you have them in large units, at least 10 (or 8 if I'm feeling fluffy. Blood for the Blood God!)
Well, i didn't mean to use them for anything but holding the point.
For hitting or shooting, there are better choices.

You have the right idea with the Bloodcrushers, although if you're dealing with Land Raiders, I'd only take one big unit of them. You're right in that LR spam is extremely difficult for Daemons. Unless you can get a Monstrous Creature or Soul Grinder close enough to smash them, that'll definitely give you issues.
When i got only one squad of them on the field, the opponent ganged on them, and got rid of them easily, so i prefer multiple squads of them.

There is one fantastic way to deal with Land Raiders that's often overlooked though--Flamers.
Yeah, i thought about it, but they take away the FOC slots from Crushers, which doesn't seems like a good deal. I mean, what could take the place of Crushers? Maybe seekers? They seem vulnerable.

For that matter, have you considered Unclean Ones over Bloodthirsters? Even with all their upgrades they're cheaper than a bare-bones Bloodthirster. They're slower and don't quite do as much in CC, but they're much harder to kill, have that same Breath of Chaos attack I was talking about with the Flamers, and it's less tragic on your army's point total if it gets killed.
I considered, but no way, a GOU will ever catch an undamaged LR, which i use the Thristers for.

Also, don't underestimate the Soul Grinder. It's pretty much amazing. Most people only go with Phlegm, but I find Tongue is also nice, since it's the only other somewhat effective way to dealing with AV14, and you might get lucky as you march him up to smash the thing.
I don't know. I tried 2 of them a few times. 160 points for a Battle cannon, or an assault1 S10 shot hitting on 4+ don't seem to worth it. And if i try to get close enough to use DCCW, they wreck them with meltas easily.

3 five man troop units are VERY small for an objective game. I'd say they need to be 10 apeice to gain survivability.
Sure they are, but so far Elites and HQ choices took most of the enemy fire, and the letters got the attention only about round 4-5.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
539 Posts
If a dual lash list scares you, you havnt seen some one the builds people are running now. Chaos lacks the ability to spread fire power. most they can get is 9 oblits that can shoot 3 different targets. Thats nothing. Try fighting a guard list with manticore spam and vandetta spam.....its not fun.....not to mention its a shit ton more las cannons and they are all twin linked....not to mention a crap ton of S10 AP4.

Just saying if dual lash lists still scare you, you havnt seen anything yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Just saying if dual lash lists still scare you, you havnt seen anything yet.
It's not like it scares me. I plaied the dual list army for tree years, so i know most of the pros and cons about it.

But IMO it's the best to avoid the Crusher charge. And if i can deal with it, i have chance against others.
Am I completley wrong?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,166 Posts
If your enemy bothers shooting elites and others over 3 five man troop squads in an objective game, he's not playing to the scenario. Once he's got the troops killed, he can worry about the others, as you're not getting a win.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
390 Posts
3 5 man troop choices=3 easy kill points for your opponant and a lose for you in any senario:hang1:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
3 5 man troop choices=3 easy kill points for your opponant and a lose for you in any senario
Surely they need heavy protection, however so far i had no trouble because of them. They only got beaten up, when the battle was lost anyway.

I thought about deploying some screamers in the army. Are they really useful against vehicles, or just seems like?

Also i wouder about replacing the Thristers. How about a list like this?

HQ:
Tzeench herald w/ chariot, WaL, MoS, BoT
Tzeench herald w/ chariot, WaL, MoS, BoT
Tzeench herald w/ chariot, WaL, MoS, Breath
Tzeench herald w/ chariot, WaL, MoS, Breath

Elites
6 Crushers w/ Fury, Instrument, Icon
6 Crushers w/ Fury, Instrument, Icon
6 Crushers w/ Fury, Instrument, Icon

Troops:
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

Fast:
7 Screamers
7 Screamers
7 Screamers

My only problem with screamers, is they seem like a one-shot unit. They charge a vehicle, wreck it or not with the melta bombs, and then they are about to be slayed by anyone. Maybe I should keep the Thristers, and have 4 units (2 BTs and 2 screamers) to danger vehicles?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
If a dual lash list scares you, you havnt seen some one the builds people are running now. Chaos lacks the ability to spread fire power. most they can get is 9 oblits that can shoot 3 different targets. Thats nothing. Try fighting a guard list with manticore spam and vandetta spam.....its not fun.....not to mention its a shit ton more las cannons and they are all twin linked....not to mention a crap ton of S10 AP4.
Have to admit, you were right. I've tried both lists against a mech IG, and got a big time beating. He literally shot down every and anything i got on the board. With tzeench heralds and 1 unit of fiends it took him a little longer, but still, i never really had any chances.
He brought 6 hydras, 1 manticore, 3 vendetta, 1 inquisitor squad with 2 mystics and a bunch of veteran squads with spec weapons and chimeras

So now I'm pretty disappointed in daemons, not because i lost, but because i don't see what units i should have brought to change the outcome of the battle.

Not to mention, after those, i plaied against a jetbike warlock eldar army, who did beat the (supposed to be CC monster) Bloodcrushers in CC with the warlocks.

What would you bring to match those armies?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
So now I'm pretty disappointed in daemons, not because i lost, but because i don't see what units i should have brought to change the outcome of the battle.
flamers, flamers and more flamers.... in a squad of 3 they can kill almost any infantry squad in the game and it only costs 105 pts so don't deep strike them right next to a unit and breath them to death...

next up... princes are god like, with all the nifty little tricks they can do and if you make them cost 200 or less points they will make there cost back and more by the end of turn 3.

also horrors, they all have an assault 3 s4 weapon, now there not that good vs marines or necrons but guard, orks, nids and so on the kick ass

up last daemonettes, 14pt of gold, same as horrors not so good vs marines but that will be going first vs ALL MARINES and a unit of 12 should kill about 5 a turn and they will kick everything else'is ass

also try using winged princes for anti tank and a herrald for your hq cheap and can do wonders


hopes some of that helps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for the answer!

Here's my opinion

flamers, flamers and more flamers.... in a squad of 3 they can kill almost any infantry squad in the game and it only costs 105 pts so don't deep strike them right next to a unit and breath them to death...
Sounds nice, but he won't get out of the transports for nothing, and if I DS too close to his Inquisitor, he'll shoot me on the spot (mystics). And even if I don't, I need an icon near him, or have to risk scatter, which drasticly lowers the effect of my templates.
And even if they HIT, they'll wreck one vehicle if i'm lucky, then die.

next up... princes are god like, with all the nifty little tricks they can do and if you make them cost 200 or less points they will make there cost back and more by the end of turn 3.
Same problem here, the hydras and vendettas shoot 'em dead before they get a chance to assault.

also horrors, they all have an assault 3 s4 weapon, now there not that good vs marines or necrons but guard, orks, nids and so on the kick ass
Probably they'll get a chance.

up last daemonettes, 14pt of gold, same as horrors not so good vs marines but that will be going first vs ALL MARINES and a unit of 12 should kill about 5 a turn and they will kick everything else'is ass
Then seekers would be better wouldn't they?

Maybe my concept about the whole thing is totally wrong, but i don't see how could any of these stand the firepower of IG.

And by the way, how would you use these units against a mech IG?

Please correct me if i see things absolutly wrong!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,166 Posts
the issue is more the Mystics than anything else. If daemons avoided that sweeping fire of death during deployment, things would go better. And when DH is redone, I suspect Allies will be removed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Your answer lies in Fiends and Seekers, if the mystics frighten you. Just deepstrike far away, and use the amazing threat range of the slaaneshi cav to get closer, while hugging cover. :)

You could also confidently drop the Screamers, in my opinion. They're just not good, with a single melta-bomb each - who will at worst be hitting on 6's, best on 4's. Nobody would move that little near screamers, though ;)

Princes with bolt could be good to get him out, and cut down the hydra's before they pummel you to death, as well. Just drop down around that 24" sweet spot and hope you blow up one or two :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Ok seriously I look at the first army list and if I was facing it in any objective mission I am thinking 3x5 Bloodletters are that easy to take out I will just ignore everything else for a turn and then at the worst it is a draw unless I am tabled.

Even in KP missions those are 3 VERY quick and easy KP's for your opponent to pocket.

If you are going to try and run min Troops in Daemons then it always always always has to be Plaguebearers. They are survivable enough to stand up to the attention of an enemy army that is playing for the mission first and foremost.

Next up in the heavily mechanised game that is 5th Ed, 3 units of Bloodcrsuhers just never cuts it as they are far too slow to ever effectively be able to chase down the enemy. What are you going to do against skimmer armies for example (standard Eldar and Dark Eldar)? Or Land Raider heavy forces (VERY common in 5th)? Only your 2 Bloodthristers will be quick and/or strong enough to pose a threat and by in large Bloodthristers do not stand up at all well to concentrated AP shooting, which most mech armies pack in spades these days to take on other mech armies.

Don't get me wrong double Bloodthrister is scary but only when backed up by plenty of other fast moving combat units like Fiends and Hounds.

Looking at the second list, first of all I know its nit picking but that should me Mark of Tzeentch not Slaanesh on the Princes. Secondly quad princes is good but you never want to be getting them too close to the enemy as they suck in combat, so Breath is a poor choice for them. Bolt all the way IMO.

Once again you have massed Crushers with mech armies will run away from all too easily. But thankfully there is 3x5 units of Plaguebearers so your troops are not a push over any more.

Then finally, whilst I am a fan of Screamers I think 3x7 is too much. Take a single unit for popping Land Raiders and giving a protective screen to the Crushers if needs be. But 3 lots is too much and now whilst you army is a lot more mobile than the 1st list it totally lacks any decent punch in Combat, except the Crushers but again they are going to be left behind more often than not.

You are certainly getting there but I think you need to look into combine the strengths of both lists backed up with some other fast cavalry units (hounds and fiends....).

Sorry if I am coming across harsh, not my intention, but honestly that is not a very strong list whatsoever.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top