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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Elite CC army designed to fit in a single carrying case!

I dreamed this up when I realised any viable 1850 list with my nids would likely take three carrying cases which makes it impractical to use right now. They'll just have to gather dust for now :(.

This list relies on a lot of deepstriking but I think I have enough CSM bodies on the table to stay alive until the reserves start showing up. They can go to ground in cover on T1 if necessary. Often deepstriking big units will backfire but the unpredictability might at least make every game a little different.

Chaos Lord
Terminator armour, power fist, combi bolter, gift (125)

7 Terminators
3 fists, 1 chainfist, 1 claw, 2 axes, 2 combi meltas, 1 heavy flamer, 4 combi bolters (278)

7 Terminators

2 chainfists, 2 fists, 3 axes, 3 combi meltas, 1 heavy flamer, 3 combi bolters (282)

6 Terminators

2 fists, 1 chainfist, 3 axes, 2 combi flamers, 1 heavy flamer (234)

10 Chaos Space Marines

2 flamers(150)

10 Chaos Space Marines
2 meltas (160)

7 Chaos Space Marines
flamer (106)

7 Chaos Space Marines
melta (111)

Bloodthirster
(250)

15 Bloodletters
(150)

:so_happy:

1. Can this sort of list work in semi competitive or even competitive environments?

2. Is 34 CSM enough to avoid being tabled on T1? On a board without much cover I have doubts

3. Would you arm the CSM units differently? I haven't put too much thought into their weapons. They're meant to be cheap power armour bodies to hold on until the killy stuff starts showing up, then move up to the objectives.

4. As you can see I have no practical flyer defense. I considered a firestorm redoubt or havoc squad but realised it would give the opponent an obvious target for T1 and a fortification would break my rule of fitting everything in one case. In the end I thought more cheap CSMs would create a list that can possibly get away with ignoring flyers. At least with lots of bolters I can try grounding FMCs.

5. Should the bloodthirster have points spent on rewards? Is it worth a terminator, or are there other places I could lose models?

6. I can deepstrike all three terminator units and the lord, right? The daemons don't count towards reserve limits because they have to be in reserve, and then I have four CSM units on the table. So four of ten units are choosing to be kept in reserve which is under half of my units.

7. What will cause me the biggest problems and are there changes I can make while sticking to an infantry based army?

Any input would be very appreciated! I'm out of touch with the meta anyway and it seems to be changing so fast these days it's hard for me to judge how an unusual list like this would work in practice.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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4,249 Posts
1. Can this sort of list work in semi competitive or even competitive environments?
Prooobably not competitive. FMC daemons or riptide/wraithknights will mulch their way through your Termis by ganging up MCs on squads and taking them down before your Unwieldies get to strike--to say nothing of the sheer amount of AP2 plasma that Tau can get, or AP2 and shooting-rending that Eldar can get. Couple this with the fact Chaos can't get any way to eliminate scatter, so you can get screwed over by a mishap/having to take an extra turn walking... you won't have the edge.

On a semi-competitive level, though? Quite probably will work. Few people will be prepared for such a heavy 2+ contingent. Heldrakes will bounce off your Termis like rubber against a steel wall. Blastmasters, Leman Russ battle cannons...

2. Is 34 CSM enough to avoid being tabled on T1? On a board without much cover I have doubts
Almost certainly. Though I would be tempted to drop the squads of 7 CSM for squads of 10 cultists with an ADL with a comms bouy--you have enough reserves that the rerolls will almost always be important, and the cultists can go to ground for some fantastic 2+ cover.

3. Would you arm the CSM units differently? I haven't put too much thought into their weapons. They're meant to be cheap power armour bodies to hold on until the killy stuff starts showing up, then move up to the objectives.
Their downsides are their lack of mobility and short-ranged special weapons. Consider plasma+autocannon or plasma+missile launcher for the ranged fire support role you seem to want them to fill. Or dual plasma, of course.

4. As you can see I have no practical flyer defense. I considered a firestorm redoubt or havoc squad but realised it would give the opponent an obvious target for T1 and a fortification would break my rule of fitting everything in one case. In the end I thought more cheap CSMs would create a list that can possibly get away with ignoring flyers. At least with lots of bolters I can try grounding FMCs.
Again, a weakness that could break you on the competitive level. What are you going to do against a Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Air, or a Tyranid Skyblight Formation? Helldrakes would absolutely love to have an uncontested reign of the skies while torching a marine squad per turn (though as mentioned before, yeah, they wouldn't be able to touch the Termis. Still, a Mace Prince can clear a squad of Termis per turn with a good Daemon Weapon roll--and that's another FMC that you'll need to be on the lookout for).

What can you do? Well, the Bloodthirster can hit rear armor with his whip? Flakkvocs are too expensive, but if you went Crimson Slaughter, you could swap your lord for a Sorc with Balestar/Divination, with Prescience rerolls to hit fliers. Hmmm. You could supplement the Daemons with a Soul Grinder? You could replace the Bloodthirster with a Lord of Change (barely worse statline and easy access to Prescience, to say nothing of being able to get some decent S5 Skyfire shooting into flyer rear armor), or a Slaaneshi DP with Lash of Despair (2D6 S6 hits? Sure! Or higher S if you invest the points and get the random roll for Iron Arm)...

Chaos have a hard time with AA. It's unfortunate. And Helldrakes (HAC for AA, perhaps?) are very hard to fit in carry-cases, even if you magnetize the wings. I don't have a perfect or easy answer for you here, unfortunately. If you want to try not worrying about flyers, or if your meta doesn't have too many, you can go ahead and do that.

5. Should the bloodthirster have points spent on rewards? Is it worth a terminator, or are there other places I could lose models?
Yes. And yes. The Bloodthirster should be bought two Greater Rewards. Hopefully you buff his survivability with your rolls, but the worse of the rewards you roll you want to swap out, so it's not terrible if you get a second set of armor or something. Why swap out one of the rewards for the Blade of Blood? Because it gives the bearer Rampage, and you already have the Axe of Khorne, which is also a Specialist Weapon, so if outnumbered (aka any time your 'Thirster isn't dueling another MC) he gets 2-4 bonus attacks. Glorious, for so cheap--and the other reward should be something like +1W and IWND, or 4+ FNP, or something. Worst case scenario you roll the lance in addition to the armor and are stuck with a solid anti-tank ranged option.

Where can you drop models? The 7-man marine squads can go down to 5 apiece, for one. If you haven't already dropped them for cultists and an ADL, that is. But it's worth it to finagle in those rewards.

6. I can deepstrike all three terminator units and the lord, right? The daemons don't count towards reserve limits because they have to be in reserve, and then I have four CSM units on the table. So four of ten units are choosing to be kept in reserve which is under half of my units.
Incorrect--you do not have to hold the daemons in reserve. They may Deep Strike, but they no longer must, so they count toward the number of units you have to keep on the board for your half-of-the-army.

The easy solution? Start with the Bloodthirster on the board hiding behind a ruin in your deployment zone. He can fly forward T1 and charge somebody T2. A bit riskier, but he'll get into combat sooner. Then the Lord, 3 Termis squads, and 'Letters can DS as normal.

7. What will cause me the biggest problems and are there changes I can make while sticking to an infantry based army?
I may have outlined a few of them...

From a personal standpoint, I would swap the Bloodletters for Daemonettes. 'Nettes are better against enemy 2+ saves, high Toughness MCs, light vehicles... and are nearly nearly as good at killing enemy MEq units.

One vital change I think you need to somehow find the points for: get those Termi squads the Mark of Tzeentch. It'll ramp up their survivability immensely--enemy MCs won't be able to chew through them nearly as fast, all the enemy AT weapons that would normally be shooting at vehicles and will now be focused at your Termis will be less effective... and so on. You can get a better invuln than loyalist Termis without having to sacrifice a weapon for a storm shield--use that to your advantage. It's well worth the points, I think.

It's certainly a very interesting army--it'll throw a lot of enemies for a loop, I think, as they won't be expecting a Termi-spam list out of a non Grey Knights army. I'd certainly be interested in hearing how you do with it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I really appreciate your input Mossy Toes! You've given me good ideas and improvements to work with without drastic changes to the character and make up of the list, that's exactly what I wanted

Certain types of army will eat this list for breakfast, I'm under no illusions there. There are too many things I can't do effectively and builds I don't have a counter for. So be it. If working some or all of your suggestions into an improved list makes it an effective semi competitive list I'm happy with that

The cultist idea sounds really good. The comms buoy is exactly what I need!

Heavy weapons in the larger CSM units would be nice but I'm thinking they'll usually either have gone to ground or be moving. In any case, it's a small change I can introduce later if necessary. It would be good to have something that can pop a transport or two early

Flyer heavy lists will be a nuisance. I'd have to hope I can hit the opponent's ground force hard enough to keep me in the game until the later turns.

Two greater rewards seems perfect for a bloodthirster. I'll do that for sure.

The option to start a bloodthirster on the table seems like great news to me! It's good the greater deamon models haven't changed (alternate heads aside) in so long so they aren't the size of newer MC's. Shouldn't be too difficult to hide on a table with the right amount of terrain. I bought a Great Unclean One in 99 when I first got into the hobby, back when it was T5 :laugh: but the only model in the game with more than 4 wounds. They're looking a little dated but have stood the test of time pretty well

Daemonettes are worth considering. I used a unit of 9 in 4th ed and they were devastating! They're not what they were but I can see why you'd suggest them over bloodletters. Rending is better for me than AP3. For consistency I'll likely keep the bloodletters though; in my 4th ed Word Bearers army I always included a Keeper of Secrets and 9 daemonettes, and I like to keep daemons to one god at a time. All Khorne daemons gives me something new to paint and use that I haven't done before.

MoT on the termies is appealing. Worth reducing each unit by one? It's an option I can easily try out later, I'll definitely remember that one.

___ ___ ___ ___ ___

Well, thanks for the advice! You've given me a lot to consider and I think it's worth going ahead with this list now. I'll probably order a bunch of termies, CSM and paints later today when I figure out exactly which colours to use.

I'd be interested to see anyone else's input but really I think I've got enough to go on now!
 
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