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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
EDIT: Updated lists on post 6 and 12

HQ Be'lakor 350

HQ Chaos Lord with terminator armour, chainfist, combi-melta, mark of khorne 137

E 4 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas, lightning claw (champ) 179

Land Raider 230

E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas 218

Land Raider 230

T 6 CSM with melta, combi-melta, rhino with havoc launcher 155

T 6 CSM with plasma gun, combi-plasma, rhino with havoc launcher 160

HS Predator with twin lascannon, lascannons sponsons 140

Aegis line 50

1849


Hoping to be a solid semi competitive list with enough going for it that it can at least go down fighting against a competitive build

The lord joins the unit of four termies in one land raider and the unit of five take the other one. Be'lakor glides up behind them. Trying to cast invisiblity on the lord/lermie land raider and then shrouding on both if I can manage it. Failing that, the other LR can use its smoke launchers. With the mark of khorne all round on the terminators both units put out a lot of high strength/low AP attacks to the point there isn't much I wouldn't want to charge. If I need to I could put invisibility on a termie unit after disembarking and before charging.

If I can pull off the lord/termie charge it would be seventeen fist attacks, nine of which are armourbane. Four claw attacks from the unit leader. The other unit charges with twelve fist attacks (four armourbane) and then four maul and four axe attacks.

So Be'lakor and two land raiders full of khorne termies and lord are the core of the army. Behind an aegis line I'd have the two CSM squads in rhinos and a predator annihilator. Can't think of much better to do with my troops and remaining points.

~

What are the implications of taking the land raiders as dedicated transports rather than heavy supports?

Any reason not to run the army as Crimson Slaughter for the Be'lakor fear synergy?



If you're still reading, thanks for making it this far :eek:k:. Any criticism or ideas are welcome!
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I like the concept of the list, but think it could use some tweaking.

HQ Chaos Lord with terminator armour, chainfist, combi-melta, mark of khorne 137
Why bring this dude when he's basically a multi-wound chainfist, and you already have your Warlord in Be'lakor? Drop him for more points to spread around, I say. Flesh out that squad of 4 Termis to 5, buy some more upgrades, etc.

E 4 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas, lightning claw (champ) 179

Land Raider 230

E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas 218

Land Raider 230
I would personally much prefer the MoT to the MoK on these guys, since it's one of the best ways of helping ensure their survivability. I'd probably rather have 2 chainfists and a power axe than a chainfist and 2 power fists, honestly--kill vehicles more effectively, and power axe mere 2+ armor enemies. Or if you have enough points now, all chainfists all the time. I would consider at least one dual LCs Termi per squad, though, for anti-horde benefit. And perhaps a 3rd combi-melta per squad, if possible.

A horde of 30 fearless Termigants or plague zombies will tie them up all game... assault extra attack of MoK or no, unfortunately. That in mind, it'd be important to get the second heavy flamer in there...

As far as the Land Raiders go, I'd personally like to get them dirge casters at the very least. You can also turn them into durable firebases for every turn they stay static by stacking on a havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and combi-plasma (and optional warpflame gargoyle, if you're going whole hog) to boot, if you like...

T 6 CSM with melta, combi-melta, rhino with havoc launcher 155

T 6 CSM with plasma gun, combi-plasma, rhino with havoc launcher 160
I'd probably just get these guys to 5 minis for the points to spare. And since they'll both be back at the ADL, I'd just go plasma on both, honestly.

If you haven't loaded out the Land Raiders with a bunch of gear, you might have enough points to treat yourself to something nice, honestly. Shave more inessentials from the CSM--or swap one squad for cultists on a quad-gun, or something--and it might actually be enough for a dakkapred, Maulerfiend or Vindi.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I like the concept of the list, but think it could use some tweaking.

Why bring this dude when he's basically a multi-wound chainfist, and you already have your Warlord in Be'lakor? Drop him for more points to spread around, I say. Flesh out that squad of 4 Termis to 5, buy some more upgrades, etc.

I would personally much prefer the MoT to the MoK on these guys, since it's one of the best ways of helping ensure their survivability. I'd probably rather have 2 chainfists and a power axe than a chainfist and 2 power fists, honestly--kill vehicles more effectively, and power axe mere 2+ armor enemies. Or if you have enough points now, all chainfists all the time. I would consider at least one dual LCs Termi per squad, though, for anti-horde benefit. And perhaps a 3rd combi-melta per squad, if possible.

A horde of 30 fearless Termigants or plague zombies will tie them up all game... assault extra attack of MoK or no, unfortunately. That in mind, it'd be important to get the second heavy flamer in there...

As far as the Land Raiders go, I'd personally like to get them dirge casters at the very least. You can also turn them into durable firebases for every turn they stay static by stacking on a havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and combi-plasma (and optional warpflame gargoyle, if you're going whole hog) to boot, if you like...

I'd probably just get these guys to 5 minis for the points to spare. And since they'll both be back at the ADL, I'd just go plasma on both, honestly.

If you haven't loaded out the Land Raiders with a bunch of gear, you might have enough points to treat yourself to something nice, honestly. Shave more inessentials from the CSM--or swap one squad for cultists on a quad-gun, or something--and it might actually be enough for a dakkapred, Maulerfiend or Vindi.
Thanks, I was hoping you would comment- your advice is always good.

Your point about the chaos lord is great- there's really no justification for him over a regular chainfist in the unit. Higher WS and one more attack and wound is really not worth his total cost. Dirge casters on the LRs and MSU CSM units is good too.

And yet- I come away with an awkward number of points that I can't figure out how to usefully spend.

Straight swapping the lord into the termie unit as the 5th guy (and new squad leader) gives me this

5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas, heavy flamer, chainfist/c.melta (champ) 240


So only one fewer chainfist attack but now with a heavy flamer. I save a load of points there. Then adding dirge casters to the land raiders and reducing the CSM units to five the list comes to 1757. Far more points efficient than it was. But... I'm left with 93 points and it feels like there isn't much I can do with that. Combi bolters on the land raiders seem like they wouldn't get fired often because I'll be trying to do hit something with the twin lascannons. Same with havoc launchers.



Swapping the melta CSM squad for plasma seems like a good idea. I'm not really convinced by mark of tzeentch on the termies because I'm relying on AV14 and telepathy spells to get them to combat, where I think the extra khorne attacks are going to be more useful. But let's assume I take the mark of tzeentch on all of the terminators too. I'm coming away with 68 points. What then? Cultists (and I hate the idea of them sullying my elite list) could sit behind the aegis and go to ground as an annoyance for the opponent


Ah, ignore the above... here's a list that doesn't involve hateful cultists and affords me a useful unit by downgrading the lord to a normal terminator:


~



HQ Be'lakor 350


E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas, heavy flamer, chainfist/c.melta (champ) 240


Land Raider with dirge caster 235


E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas 218


Land Raider with dirge caster 235


T 5 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 137


T 5 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 137


HS Predator with twin lascannon, 2 lascannons 140


HS Predator with autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launcher 107


Aegis line 50


1849




The lord is gone, the model as it is can be used as the unit champion of that squad. Now that unit has a heavy flamer. The CSM units both have a plasma gun and are MSU, but now don't have combi weapons on the unit leaders. A necessary saving to afford the dakka pred.


It isn't all of the changes you suggested but does seem like a directly better list. Maybe instead of the dakka pred I could find a few more points for an auto/las pred
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Ah, ignore the above
When it's such quality stream-of-consciousness musing? I have a weakness for indulging in such myself, so--never!

I like the list. It seems tidier, but is still at its core basically the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
When it's such quality stream-of-consciousness musing? I have a weakness for indulging in such myself, so--never!

I like the list. It seems tidier, but is still at its core basically the same.
Ha, you're being polite. I'd call it babble.

I've thought about it since and I'd drop the idea of fielding the lord model as the unit leader, making a slightly cheaper unit of termies, then I could upgrade the dakka pred to an auto/las pred. So now overall a slight hit to one of the terminator units (though now with a heavy flamer) but a significant boost to fire support with an autocannon and two more lascannons behind the aegis.

Thanks again!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
I've been tinkering, entertaining the idea of dropping the 'sit behind the aegis line' section of my list for something more aggressive. Essentially the Be'lakor/Land Raider/Land Raider part of the list is more or less as it was, but instead of a predator annihilator and the two rhino CSM squads behind the aegis I'm thinking of dropping the aegis and pred for a pair of MSU bike units. Mostly because the predator (while good) is a little one dimensional for a list with so few units, and I think the CSM units would be more valuable played aggressively.


HQ Be'lakor 350


HQ Chaos Lord with mark of khorne, term armour, chain fist, lightning claw 147


E 4 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas, lightning claw (champ) 179


Land Raider 230


E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, heavy flamer, 3 fists, combi melta, combi flamer 225


Land Raider 230


T 6 CSM with meltagun, rhino with havoc launcher 145


T 6 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 150


FA 3 Bikes with 2 meltaguns, melta bombs 95


FA 3 Bikes with 2 flamers, power weapon, veterans of the long war 98


1849




Is this an improvement? Part of the appeal is it would be more fun to play with.



Option 1: Pred annihilator, aegis line
Option 2: Two MSU bike squads


With the bikes my initial idea was two identical units with two meltaguns and melta bombs. Then I considered for the same price I could give the second unit a pair of flamers and give the unit champion a power weapon for a dedicated anti infantry unit. My list seems weak against hordes or any opponent with lots of small units so the dual flamer option is appealing.


I'd love to hear any opinions about the list generally or the bike idea :good:
 

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HQ Chaos Lord with mark of khorne, term armour, chain fist, lightning claw 147
Ah, I see this guy's sneaked back in, with the even more novel combo of chainfisticlaws. Rare to see that, with the limited access to chainfists. He might actually be worth it, but I'd still rather, say, drop him for a 5th heavy flamer Termi (there's more anti-horde for you), then grab that 3rd squad of MSU melta bikers--why choose between a second melta squad or a flamer squad, and not take both?

(you might have to drop the flamer Bikers' PW and/or VOTLW to make the points work, but... worthwhile, to my eyes)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ah, I see this guy's sneaked back in, with the even more novel combo of chainfisticlaws. Rare to see that, with the limited access to chainfists. He might actually be worth it, but I'd still rather, say, drop him for a 5th heavy flamer Termi (there's more anti-horde for you), then grab that 3rd squad of MSU melta bikers--why choose between a second melta squad or a flamer squad, and not take both?

(you might have to drop the flamer Bikers' PW and/or VOTLW to make the points work, but... worthwhile, to my eyes)
With the lord I took your original idea on board and still agree with the point you made- a regular terminator with chainfist is more point efficient, and the heavy flamer is a good incentive. It's going to be an option for if I ever need to strengthen the list, but in the meantime I just prefer the idea of having a CSM HQ (that isn't a daemon prince) to lead my guys. It's mostly a fluff/hobby issue if I'm honest. I think when I expand the army to 2000 points I'll add a unit of about 100 points so if I want to swap the lord for a normal terminator in the 1850 list I've already got a unit I can bring in to spend the saved points on.

What do you think of the bike squad with the flamers and power weapon? The power weapon will most likely be a sword. Swapping out the predator I thought two units of melta bikes made a decent anti armour alternative, but then thought it might be worth sacrificing some of the AA ability for something that can go after horde infantry or small MEQ units. Your CSM list you posted recently with lots of small units would be a nightmare for my land raider terms who'd be wasted when there aren't big, scary, expensive things to tackle like knights, and in that sort of game the flamer bikes would be a great option to have.

One more thing- dirge casters on the land raiders. It was something I liked when you suggested it but since then I started thinking they usually wouldn't get any use. When the terminators disembark 6 inches away from the front of the LR and charge away from the vehicle (which I expect would almost always be the case) the dirge casters are out of range. Since the LR can only move 6 on the turn they disembark the unit I'm going for would have to get pretty close to the vehicle in their own turn for me to get the land raider within 6 inches of them

By the way, smoke launchers and shrouding stack don't they? My initial idea with Be'lakor was to prioritise invisibility and put that on the lord/termie land raider, then if I had dice left for shrouding I could cast that for the other raider. Now I'm thinking turn one the raiders move 12 with Be'lakor right behind them, he casts shrouding, they shoot their smoke launchers and I can put invisibility on something else or just throw the rest of my dice at psychic shriek, dominate etc.
 

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One more thing- dirge casters on the land raiders. It was something I liked when you suggested it but since then I started thinking they usually wouldn't get any use. When the terminators disembark 6 inches away from the front of the LR and charge away from the vehicle (which I expect would almost always be the case) the dirge casters are out of range. Since the LR can only move 6 on the turn they disembark the unit I'm going for would have to get pretty close to the vehicle in their own turn for me to get the land raider within 6 inches of them
Fair point, fair point indeed.

By the way, smoke launchers and shrouding stack don't they? My initial idea with Be'lakor was to prioritise invisibility and put that on the lord/termie land raider, then if I had dice left for shrouding I could cast that for the other raider. Now I'm thinking turn one the raiders move 12 with Be'lakor right behind them, he casts shrouding, they shoot their smoke launchers and I can put invisibility on something else or just throw the rest of my dice at psychic shriek, dominate etc.
Yep. I've been bemoaning the fact that smoke launchers are a simple 5+ save, not Shrouded (so doesn't stack with cover), for all of 6th... but then along comes 7th and, hey, what do you know, we have the Shrouding psychic power, so let's take advantage of T1 3+ cover saves! (at the price of no going flat out, but ah well, win some lose some)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
i like what mossy is saying but i owuld run dual claws on 1 or 2 of the termies coz there soo good and if u have a chain fist its goin to kill the tanks first do anyways
I quite like dual lightning claws, partly because of how cool they look, but I can't see myself removing a fist for them. I want my terminators to be able to tackle imperial knights and wraithknights, and S4 isn't doing anything in those fights. Both units are built around one guy (the axe/lightning claw champions in both squads) running up front to take the overwatch (or die first to CC attacks) and the other four wading in with rage power/chain fists. The lord unit will have eight power fist and ten chainfist attacks on the charge, the other unit twelve power fist and four chainfist attacks. Sounds a bit OTT but bad rolls will happen at some point, and I can't do D3 extra wounds against wraithknights like I can with imperial knights so with only a quarter of my total attacks causing wounds I need every fist attack I can manage

FWIW I've got a single lightning claw on one of the unit champions and a claw on the lord which is effectively a pair of claws when I want to attack softer targets.

I forgot to mention a minor benefit of the lord is I could (in certain scenarios) split him from the terminator unit he's with and charge separate targets. It's not much but I can imagine situations when it might be beneficial
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I've had an idea for a variation of the more recent list that involves dropping one of the rhinos, putting that CSM squad in the lord's land raider and deepstriking the displaced terminator squad. I got the idea when I realised the lord is probably brutal enough on his own to not really need a terminator squad with him- he could get away with cheaper bodies as his meatshield while he goes to work on his own. I could maybe get away with cultists for that job but I don't want them in my elite army.

Deepstriking terminators without any reserve manipulation might not seem too smart but I'm thinking they make a great receiver of invisibility when they drop, and with the twin land raider/Be'lakor rush and a pair of MSU bike units to pressure the opponent, keep their forces back and lock units in combat I think it might be viable.

Anyway- the list. Removed: One rhino and the mark of khorne on the second terminator squad. Added: An extra terminator to the unit of four, one of the CSM squads is shifted to a CC role with the champion taking a sword and melta bombs. The lord and CC chaos marines ride in the heavy support land raider and the unmarked termies deepstrike.


HQ Be'lakor 350


HQ Chaos Lord with MoK, term armour, chain fist, lightning claw 147


E 5 Terminators with MoK, 2 chainfists, 2 fists, 3 combi meltas, lightning claw (champ) 230


Land Raider 230


E 5 Terminators with chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 fists, combi flamer 198


T 7 CSM (bolt pistol and CCW) with meltagun, power sword, melta bombs 131


T 5 CSM (bolters) with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 137


FA 3 Bikes with 2 meltaguns, melta bombs 95


FA 3 Bikes with 2 flamers, power axe 98


HS Land Raider 230




1840


Not sure about the remaining ten points. Maybe a heavy flamer on the land raider termies, gift of mutation for the lord or VOTLW and MoK on the flamer bikes.

@Mossy Toes ... improvement? It feels as if it might be since I go from three hard hitting CC units to four, and as long as the lord can regularly destroy a knight within two rounds of combat (he consistently will) the lord/CSM unit is strong enough.
 

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I dig this, since it differentiates the Lord and the Termis he was with. At this point, you should perhaps ask yourself if you're just clinging to the unmounted Termis because you liked the idea of having 2 Termi squads 2 LRs... but I rather like this loadout, even if you could do something interesting with their points, if you felt so inclined.

Hmmm, 10 points to spare? I'd drop the combi-flamer from the DSing unit and grab 3 combi-plasma on it, since it'll probably be able to DS within 12" of an enemy, so it'd be nice to give it a little real bite the turn it comes in!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I dig this, since it differentiates the Lord and the Termis he was with. At this point, you should perhaps ask yourself if you're just clinging to the unmounted Termis because you liked the idea of having 2 Termi squads 2 LRs... but I rather like this loadout, even if you could do something interesting with their points, if you felt so inclined.

Hmmm, 10 points to spare? I'd drop the combi-flamer from the DSing unit and grab 3 combi-plasma on it, since it'll probably be able to DS within 12" of an enemy, so it'd be nice to give it a little real bite the turn it comes in!
Thanks. The two termie squads have to stay because I'm basing the army around an original theme of trying to get a terminator heavy CC CSM army to be as viable as possible. Originally it was a deepstrike army with daemon allies and three termie squads but I saw potential in land raiders and two squads, and now I've come to this current incarnation.

I love the plasma idea, I just can't stand converting. I'm an awful converter and know my limitations. It's a shame the combi-flamer in the kit isn't a plasma :(
 
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