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Discussion Starter #1
Watched someone play a simmilar 1850pt army against the Nids, thought I would make my own list and see what you all think.

HQ
Avatar-155
Jain Zar(with second banshee Squad)-190

Troops
6 Pathfinders-144

6 Pathfinders-144

Elites
10 Harlequin-282
(8 Kisses, 2 Fusion Guns, Troupe Master, Shadow Seer)

6 Howling Banshees (in Falcon)-128
(Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic)

5 Howling Banshees (in Falcon with Jain Zar)-112
(Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic)

Heavy Support
5 Dark Reapers-227
(Exarch, Missile Launcher, Fast Shot, Crack Shot)

Falcon-230
(Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SE, HF, SS)

Falcon-230
(Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SE, HF, SS)
 

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interesting army for dealing with stealers, and MC's but i think it could struggle against anything resembling a hoard. Direavengers would probably help no end
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Maybe stick 2 squads of DA into wave serpents and ditch the rangers and reapers?
 

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Watched someone play a simmilar 1850pt army against the Nids, thought I would make my own list and see what you all think.

HQ
Avatar-155
Jain Zar(with second banshee Squad)-190

Troops
6 Pathfinders-144

6 Pathfinders-144

Elites
10 Harlequin-282
(8 Kisses, 2 Fusion Guns, Troupe Master, Shadow Seer)

6 Howling Banshees (in Falcon)-128
(Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic)

5 Howling Banshees (in Falcon with Jain Zar)-112
(Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic)

Heavy Support
5 Dark Reapers-227
(Exarch, Missile Launcher, Fast Shot, Crack Shot)

Falcon-230
(Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SE, HF, SS)

Falcon-230
(Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SE, HF, SS)
The banshees are THE counter to stealers; however their effectiveness relies on destroying the genestealers outright and not being susceptible to any substantial retaliation. For that reason I think it's best to max out the banshee squad. I field 10 in a waveserpent and i have obliterated my friends stealer squad twice. With only 6 banshees you'll face a stronger retaliation.

Pathfinders can be great but are terribly hard to use; they can deep strike a ravener out of LOS and next turn they move and charge as beasts with some 5 attacks. Not fun for pathfinders -- cover helps but initiative won't save them from raveners used properly. just an example of what to look out for.

Don't know about harlies never used them, but that squad is too expensive. You need what i call mowing power, and that means Dire Avengers, shuricannons/scatter lasers on warwalkers/vypers, and lots of dooming and guiding.

I don't really understand Dark Reapers against tyranids. My friend's army is all 2+ saves on the big bugs and 4-6+ on everything else, so really the best target I can think of is the warriors and you won't be targetting jack until you blast through the gaunt wall. Anyway dark reapers are too expensive for what they do against tyranids. Really I'd only field them if the table is wide open to their 48" but Nids cling to terrain like no other.

Falcons are too expensive IMO. 460 points in two vehicles is too much; you could get 3 fireprisms with holofields at that cost, just sayin.

Jain Zar is cool but too expensive. As are most Pheonix lords.



Bottomline I'd consolidate the Banshee squads in a waveserpent (drop Jain Zar), drop a falcon, replace with a prism, cut your harlie squad down to 6 to fit in the remaining falcon, drop the Dark Reapers and get a Wraithlord, spend the rest of the points on Dire Avengers + a fortune/guideseer.

Wraithlords are mean against Nids because they'll damage big bugs at range and in melee, it takes 5 strength to even damage them (on a 6, good luck to them) and none of the Nids ranged weapons can AP them. And don't forget the dual flamers! Last game my friend forgot my wraithlord had dual flamers, shoulda seen the look on his face when i brought out the template.
 

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Actually as a veteran of the Eldar, I see a lot of potential in your list. I do see a few downfalls but they are minor.

1... You have very few Scoring units for the points limit. Thsu certain missions and/or scenerios could work agaisnt you.
2... You have a lot of points tied up in those 2 "God-Falcons", yes their good; but those points could get you even more guns and another unit. The swap of Starcannons to Scatterlasers woudl save you points (for an extra unit) and with 4 shots instead of 2, they actually would make your list better for "All Comers" and have almost as much power on MC's with more potential against light vehicles and hordes.
3... The upgrades you have on the Banshees are a waste of points to some extent. First off, Jan-Zair confers all of her skills to the unit, so that Exarch only requires an Executioner to be fully effective. Secondly, I have yet to see the value in Warshout or Acrobat that I could not get for free through proper movement and a timed assault. Lets face it,,,, who cares if the enemy is WS=1 if you hit first, with 18+ pw attacks and you hit the right sized enemy unit or combine the 2 squads into large enemy units. Also, what good is a Counter-assault ability if your doing the assauting ? I would simply save those points (20 in total) to use elsewhere (that extra unit I spoke about earlier).
4.. Trim the Harliquins down just a little, the chances of actually getting all 10 across the table are slim to none, so you don't need 8 Kisses (4-6 would do), and I would actually take a PW on the Troupe Master instead of the Kiss, and possible remove 1-2 figures so that the squad is more manouverable. Hell, lets face it, I would run them as (162) Harlies - 6: Shadowsee and 6 kisses. So taht I could Leapfrog them with a Falcon when I felt like it and I would swap out one Banshee Squad for (113) Fire Dragons -6: Exarch with Dragons Breath Flamer and Crackshot. Just because I like the Flamer options on hordes, and their MC control is rediculous.
5... Now that I have saved you 70 odd points, add a Scatterlaser and Shuri-cannon Vyper to the army, its another scoring unit, adds 7 more Str=6 shots for better horde potential and a little more MC potential as well as being just sick against Light vehicles; thus turning a tuned (Nid) list into a much more viable "All Comers" list.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Alright I Re-made my nid list, totals about 1844 and it goes as follows:

HQ
Jain Zar-190
Autarch(Jetbike, Mandi., Laser Lance, Fusion Gun)-140
Troops
5 pathfinders-120
5 pathfinders-120
Elites
6 Harlequin(5 kisses, 2 Fusion Guns, Troupe Master)-168
10 Howling Banshees(Exarch, Executioner)-182
10 Howling Banshees(Exarch, Executioner)-182
Transport
Wave Serpent(Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SS)-155
Wave Serpent(Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SS)-155
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears (Exarch, Shuriken Cannon, PW, Withdraw)-227
Heavy Support
Falcon(Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, VE, HF, SS)-205

Harlequin go into the Falcon and the Banshees go into the Wave Serpents. Jain Zar can join one squad of Banshees while the Autarch follows the Shinning Spears. Not as much fire power as my last list without the Reapers and the extra Falcon, but I believe this list has more potential as an "All Comers" type army.

I notice right away that it wont do well against a mech army except against light armour. Besides 3 fusion guns and a pulse laser, I dont think it would manage against larger tanks with 12+ armour values... Any further suggestions?

I am also contemplating the effectiveness of a mostly wraith armyagainst the nids. I.E Wraith Lords and a few wraithguard in wave serpents. I believe 3 wraith lord and an avatar would hold out pretty well in CC.
 

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HQ
Jain Zar-190
Autarch(Jetbike, Mandi., Laser Lance, Fusion Gun)-140
Troops
5 pathfinders-120
5 pathfinders-120
Elites
6 Harlequin(5 kisses, 2 Fusion Guns, Troupe Master)-168 Why do you have Fussion Guns here, they should be assaulting, and even against a vehicle their Reniding or the Falcons should be doing the work. They are too few to be standing aroudn taking pot-shots at anything.
(162) Harlies - 6: Shadowseer and 6 kisses. Gives you Plasma Grenades for assaults into enemy in cover, Furious Charge (+1 Str, +1 Att) on assault, and the VOT to remove some enemy return fire if they do happen to get left in the open. Seriously consider this stuff.
10 Howling Banshees(Exarch, Executioner)-182
10 Howling Banshees(Exarch, Executioner)-182 Change this to a squad of Fire Dragons and do some Shake and Bake monouvers. Seriously you need the anti-tank and tough infantry anyway.
Transport
Wave Serpent(Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SS)-155
Wave Serpent(Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SS)-155 Both of these could be trimmed to Shuri-cannons all around and Star Engines if you intend on blitzing the enemy, as they will not be shooting much while moving super fast. I do like the Scatters though or even EML's with no Shuri-cannons; but your playstyle will dictiate which is best.
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears (Exarch, Shuriken Cannon, LL, Withdraw)-227 You wan to consider Skilled Rider for when you assault into cover, seriously..... and when are they going to shoot that Shuri-cannon ?
Turn 1, Turbo
Turn 2, Assault.
Repeat as neccesary plowing thorugh enemy infantry as they go (get the Autarch involved when you can.)
Heavy Support
Falcon(Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, VE, HF, SS)-205 Once again Star Engines are nice if your playing the blitz, and then trim off any Weapons upgrades as their generally not needed when your that close.

Harlequin go into the Falcon and the Banshees go into the Wave Serpents. Jain Zar can join one squad of Banshees while the Autarch follows the Shinning Spears. Not as much fire power as my last list without the Reapers and the extra Falcon, but I believe this list has more potential as an "All Comers" type army.

I notice right away that it wont do well against a mech army except against light armour. Besides 3 fusion guns and a pulse laser, I dont think it would manage against larger tanks with 12+ armour values... Any further suggestions?

I am also contemplating the effectiveness of a mostly wraith armyagainst the nids. I.E Wraith Lords and a few wraithguard in wave serpents. I believe 3 wraith lord and an avatar would hold out pretty well in CC.

EMLs, FireDragons etc woudl give you a lot more potential against all comers, take a look at what I said and consider a Rhino-rush Dark Angel Opponent that sticks his shooters in cover and rushes with his P-fist weilding squads.... I think you will understand what I am talking about.
 

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dont get dire avengers as there skill dosnt really work if multiple groups ttack a squad as it only works if there targetted

your list is fine
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have actually been considering the Dire Avengers. I am working on another list that involves 10 DA with exarch (2 Shuriken catipults, Blade Storm) and they will be joined by Eldrad. With them in the wave serpent, I can move them into a good location, shoot 32 shots that gain re-roles to hit and to wound (with guide and doom). They can also re-role saves(fortune) or I could choose to do some nasty work with Mind War or Eldritch Storm. And, if all goes well, they can hop back into the serpent and hide for a round. Although they would draw a lot of fire and break apart like twigs... OH WELL, if anything, they just wiped out a squad and have already payed for them selves. Eldrad can stand back a little in case things get nasty. I would most likely keep the waveserpent near cover to avoid unnecissary dents.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
This is my new list, haven't played it yet, but I will this weekend.

HQ
-210-Eldrad Ulthran

-215-Karandras

Troops
-192-8 Pathfinders-

-152-10 Dire Avengers-

Elites
-113-6 Striking Scorpions-

-136-6 Fire Dragons-

Transport
-190-Wave Serpent-

Fast Attack
-206-7 Warp Spiders-

Heavy Support
-227-5 Dark Reapers-

-215-Falcon-
 

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Please remove all breakdown costs from your post, unit totals are fine; but use the modify/edit button to dump the rest.

Then I'll be happy to atke a look at it for you and give you a rundown of what I think.
 

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This is my new list, haven't played it yet, but I will this weekend.

HQ
-210-Eldrad Ulthran

-215-Karandras

Troops
-192-8 Pathfinders-

-152-10 Dire Avengers-

Elites
-113-6 Striking Scorpions-

-136-6 Fire Dragons-

Transport
-190-Wave Serpent-

Fast Attack
-206-7 Warp Spiders-

Heavy Support
-227-5 Dark Reapers-

-215-Falcon-
What's Karandras going to do? Stick with other scorpions?

There is nothing wrong with dire avengers, Bladestorm is almost designed for killing nids.

Not sure how you plan on using the spiders, or the Reapers. Nids are basically all 5+/6+ saves and then big bugs/zoanthropes who can upgrade to the 2+ save, so the reaper launcher isn't particularly useful here. It's a waste of points if you use it to pick off gaunts; the best target you'll have is Warriors.

The more skimmers the better. Half their army can't do anything to a skimmer, so Falcons will help win this fight.

I would NOT take more pathfinders... I may be mistaken here, but if you've got your squad of Pathfinders nicely tucked into terrain, what is there that's stopping a Lictor from popping out of terrain and assaulting them right there? The Pathfinders will be tied down, it won't be pretty
8 pathfinders hit on 4+ = 4 hits, wound on 5+ = 4/3 wounds, save on 5+ = .8888 wounds
Lictor lives to attack the pathfinders with S6 and rending, and on the next assault phase he'll be going first.

Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm still very new.


And BTW, as i've said before, Banshees do wonders against stealers. Scorpions and the like will get shredded.
 

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I would NOT take more pathfinders... I may be mistaken here, but if you've got your squad of Pathfinders nicely tucked into terrain, what is there that's stopping a Lictor from popping out of terrain and assaulting them right there? The Pathfinders will be tied down, it won't be pretty
8 pathfinders hit on 4+ = 4 hits, wound on 5+ = 4/3 wounds, save on 5+ = .8888 wounds
Lictor lives to attack the pathfinders with S6 and rending, and on the next assault phase he'll be going first.

Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm still very new.
Just here to corrct your math-hammer.

8 Pathfinders
hit on 2+; thus, its 6.67hits (not factoring for AP=1 shots)
Wounds on 4+; thus its 3.3 wounds (not factoring for AP=1 shots)
killing 2/3 so its 2 Dead (not factoring for AP=1 shots)

But more important than that are these points:
-- They can Pin things that are wounded be them (obviously not a factor for most Nids; but usefull on other enemies).
-- The wound anything on a 4+ so they are absolutely solid against Monstrous Creatures, and if you start to factor in their AP=1 shots (due to the special rule for Pathfinders with Sniper Rifles) you can pretty well guarentee that they will get 1-2 wounds on an MC every turn.

If you take a look at most Tourney level Eldar lists you will see 5-8 Pathfinders in there somewhere, as they are wicked in shooting. Also with their Camileon Cloaks, they gain 2+ to any cover save they have, so they are often sitting in (2+ cover save terrain), Add Fortune and its gross. In regard to assault or being assaulted, again they do have their uses. With infilitration and their Scout move they can Assault on turn 1 (nice to take down a Bio-vore, or hold up some Necron Destroyers, etc). Also, even if being assaulted, they can often hold on long enough to allow other Eldar to get in there and save them. Pathfinders are one of those units that look weird on Paper; but can absolutely rock on the table (they can suck too, but thats normally due to poor "Leadership by their General").

CaHG
 

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Just here to corrct your math-hammer.

8 Pathfinders
hit on 2+; thus, its 6.67hits (not factoring for AP=1 shots)
Wounds on 4+; thus its 3.3 wounds (not factoring for AP=1 shots)
killing 2/3 so its 2 Dead (not factoring for AP=1 shots)

But more important than that are these points:
-- They can Pin things that are wounded be them (obviously not a factor for most Nids; but usefull on other enemies).
-- The wound anything on a 4+ so they are absolutely solid against Monstrous Creatures, and if you start to factor in their AP=1 shots (due to the special rule for Pathfinders with Sniper Rifles) you can pretty well guarentee that they will get 1-2 wounds on an MC every turn.

If you take a look at most Tourney level Eldar lists you will see 5-8 Pathfinders in there somewhere, as they are wicked in shooting. Also with their Camileon Cloaks, they gain 2+ to any cover save they have, so they are often sitting in (2+ cover save terrain), Add Fortune and its gross. In regard to assault or being assaulted, again they do have their uses. With infilitration and their Scout move they can Assault on turn 1 (nice to take down a Bio-vore, or hold up some Necron Destroyers, etc). Also, even if being assaulted, they can often hold on long enough to allow other Eldar to get in there and save them. Pathfinders are one of those units that look weird on Paper; but can absolutely rock on the table (they can suck too, but thats normally due to poor "Leadership by their General").

CaHG
Slow down a second there, my Math Hammer is between Pathfinders and a Lictor in assault.

I'm saying this because my friend uses a lictor, and my Pathfinders can be in ANY terrain, sniping like they should be, and a lictor can pop out and kill them and they don't have the strength to put enough wounds on it, so I10 isn't helping them.
 

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The list also sports Scorpions, Karandas, Eldrad and several other things that can deal with a Lictor.... did you expect to jsut naturally get those pathfinders in CC as a Freebee. There should be 25% terrain, so they certainly have opotions on placement, and they should be used in conjunction with a Counter Assault unit, so the lictor may get in; but he aint getting out. Meanwhile the Pathfinders can infiltrat, scout, and be shooting TMC on their turn 1... worth it I think if it means cleansing out a Flyrant or some other nasty.

I saw your math, I just put int he other side of the coin, as both scenerios are certainly viable.
 

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The lictor deepstrikes into any piece of terrain and then assaults, it can always get the pathfinders. Or for me, the reapers. If i put something in terrain that can't fight in assault, my friend sets the lictor on them, and it always kills a few of my squad leaving not enough to do much in defense -- and at worst for the Nid player, he has a 150-200 pt squad tied up until i deal with it. Except of course as you said, waste a turn or two bringing counter assault units over to your chosen sniping cover, kill it, and let them get back to what they were doing.

Is there something I'm missing?

maybe my friend is just lictor-crazy and this isn't the standard practice?
 

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If you are going to use a Phoenix Lord at all, use Asurmen. Against Tyranids I mean. Maugen Ra's gun is nice too, but Asurmen can dish out crazy shots from his catapults if he Bladestorms. AND you can stick him in a squad of dire avengers to give them the ability without paying for an exarch and the subsequent power. I personally use about 45 avengers vs nids, along with scatter lasers GALORE.
 
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