[MidnightSun]

Forgive me, Lion, for I have sinned.

HQ
Tigurius

ELITES
5 Sternguard with Sergeant with Combi-Grav in Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher in Rhino
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun and Lascannon in Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
Vindicator with Legacy of Glory (Battle of Keylek) (An upgrade from War Machines Of The Adeptus Astartes that gives the Demolisher Cannon the Ignores Cover rule for the price of a Rhino - expensive, but very nasty!)
Stormraven Gunship with Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, and Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

I wanted to bring the Legacy of Glory (Murder) to give the Stormraven Monster Hunter to make it better at hunting that pesky Winged Hive Tyrant, but points and the 1-per-1000pts cap make that impossible.

Other than that, the plan is to pretty much refuse the flank, concentrating the Tacticals, Tigurius and his Sternguard bodyguards and the Vindicator on one side, with the Stormtalons coming in to deliver a powerful blow when the rest of the army gets stuck in and the Stormraven delivering the Terminators into the most troublesome enemy unit or where the power-armoured/mechanised force looks to be struggling.

 

[vonklaude]

Forgive me, Lion, for I have sinned.

HQ
Tigurius

ELITES
5 Sternguard with Sergeant with Combi-Grav in Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Cannon
5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher in Rhino
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun and Lascannon in Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
Vindicator with Legacy of Glory (Battle of Keylek) upgrade from War Machines Of The Adeptus Astartes that gives the Demolisher Cannon the Ignores Cover rule for the price of a Rhino
Stormraven Gunship with Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, and Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

I wanted to bring the Legacy of Glory (Murder) to give the Stormraven Monster Hunter to make it better at hunting that pesky Winged Hive Tyrant, but points and the 1-per-1000pts cap make that impossible.

Other than that, the plan is to pretty much refuse the flank, concentrating the Tacticals, Tigurius and his Sternguard bodyguards and the Vindicator on one side, with the Stormtalons coming in to deliver a powerful blow when the rest of the army gets stuck in and the Stormraven delivering the Terminators into the most troublesome enemy unit or where the power-armoured/mechanised force looks to be struggling.

Nice list! If only you could give your Sternguard combi-weapons...

 

[ntaw]

Where do you find the rules for this Legacy of Glory stuff? I noticed it added to Battlescribe a little while back but I have no idea what it's all about.

I would be tempted to drop the MLs in the Tactical squads for combi-weapons in the Sternguard. I think I'd also run Tigger with the Hammernators, but that's patially because I rolled Invisibility with my Imperial Fist Libby the last game I played him in and those Hammernators basically won me the game because of it. Differently, I would also play the Sternguard in a Drop Pod instead of a Razorback. One less turn of shooting for them in a tank.

As a side note, TH/SS Terminators are the only Infantry unit I would ever put in a Stormraven (that's after losing almost every other unit I've tried to Explodes! results). That being said, I never do it any more because I like them in a Land Raider WAY more.

 

[MidnightSun]

Where do you find the rules for this Legacy of Glory stuff? I noticed it added to Battlescribe a little while back but I have no idea what it's all about.

Forge World book, War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes. For every 1000pts of army, one vehicle can bring a Legacy of Glory. There's a bunch, costing different points depending on which vehicle you put them on (Super-Heavy ones are pretty expensive because they get more use out of them, for example); the two stand-outs in my opinion are Kheylek (Ignores Cover on the vehicle's blast weapons) and Murder (Monster Hunter and a 6" bubble of Fearless).

I would be tempted to drop the MLs in the Tactical squads for combi-weapons in the Sternguard.

That makes sense, heavy weapons are always kind of awkward for Marines in tanks.

I think I'd also run Tigger with the Hammernators, but that's patially because I rolled Invisibility with my Imperial Fist Libby the last game I played him in and those Hammernators basically won me the game because of it. Differently, I would also play the Sternguard in a Drop Pod instead of a Razorback. One less turn of shooting for them in a tank.

Eh, I don't like Invisibility. I'll play against it because it's perfectly legitimate in the rules, but I try not to use it if at all possible. I'm more a Divination person, anyway - reliability is why I play Marines! Sternguard are great in a Pod, agreed, but I'm working on model restrictions.

As a side note, TH/SS Terminators are the only Infantry unit I would ever put in a Stormraven (that's after losing almost every other unit I've tried to Explodes! results). That being said, I never do it any more because I like them in a Land Raider WAY more.

Land Raiders are nice, but I like the mobility/fire-fighting aspect of the Stormraven, as well as the Stormraven's firepower. Being able to get them exactly where I need them at one turn's notice has been useful more than once - also very useful for picking up the Misplaced survivors of a Deep Strike Mishap, if you're Deep Striking anything

HQ
Tigurius

ELITES
5 Sternguard with 4 Combi-Plasmas in Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
Vindicator with Legacy of Glory (Battle of Keylek)
Stormraven Gunship with Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, and Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

 

[ntaw]

What's not to like about Invisibility? It makes that unit damn hard to do any damage to. I know it's a bit random to get, but with a ML3 Psyker you will likely roll that out every time.

Currently checking out that IA book, was it written in conjunction with the 5th or 6th edition release?

 

[MidnightSun]

Definitely 6th ed or post 6th ed, since the Legacy of Glory increases the range on Command warlord traits.

I don't like Invisibility because it's a bullshit auto-win if your opponent has no Warp Charge to Deny it with, or gets unlucky/average with their D6 warp charge.

 

[ntaw]

I don't know if Invisibility is an auto-win, unless you're using Tigger as a Space Marine you'll be hard pressed to even get it. I was quite lucky in rolling off on it, and my opponent would have dealt with it better had he better experience being forced to hit something on a 6 (coming from a dude that plays a Flying Daemon Prince and twin Heldrakes...jeeze). He just didn't commit enough firepower on them soon enough to stop them from getting into combat. As for casting it/getting it denied, maybe I play a bit more aggressively in the Psychic Phase at 6-8 Mastery Level points but I usually can throw everything at denying crucial powers like that. It means I might get hit with a few Witchfires, but I've stopped plenty of Blessings this way.

Don't get me wrong, Divination is way more reliable. I just don't hate on Invisibility because it's ultimately up to the dice if you get it, making for quite the gamble between "uber-psyker" and "force weapon wielding dude who's mediocre in combat".

Well would ya lookit that. While seeing if it was worth switching the PCs in the Devastators to MLs to get a couple points for Combi-Weapons I found out that they are the same points cost. The more you know!

 

[MidnightSun]

I don't know if Invisibility is an auto-win, unless you're using Tigger as a Space Marine you'll be hard pressed to even get it. I was quite lucky in rolling off on it, and my opponent would have dealt with it better had he better experience being forced to hit something on a 6 (coming from a dude that plays a Flying Daemon Prince and twin Heldrakes...jeeze).

Thing is, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flyers are something you can, and should, factor into your list building. Bring an anti-air defence, even if that's just flyers of your own. A flying DP is probably going to Glide at some point so it can get into combat, so have a plan to kill it on the turn it does so, or make a new plan so you can afford to sacrifice the unit it charges so it will be in the open and on the ground in your turn. But Invisibility? You can't use templates, you can't use blasts, you can't fire at your full Ballistic Skill against it. How do you counter Invisibility? Tank Shock or a very good tarpit seems to be the only option outside of codex-specific options like Tesla.

He just didn't commit enough firepower on them soon enough to stop them from getting into combat.

How, pray, do you commit enough firepower to kill Invisible Hammernators? I think most armies would struggle to simply bring enough bullets to bring them down.

As for casting it/getting it denied, maybe I play a bit more aggressively in the Psychic Phase at 6-8 Mastery Level points but I usually can throw everything at denying crucial powers like that. It means I might get hit with a few Witchfires, but I've stopped plenty of Blessings this way.

I don't think that bringing 8 Mastery is the norm - I'd never have a Space Marine list with that amount of Warp Charge, and my Orks would have no hope at all. Even my Eldar and Tyranid opponents are going to be sitting at +5 or +6 most of the time unless they run particularly psyker-heavy. I don't bring that many psykers purely because I don't need that many psychic powers cast - their inherent unreliability ensures that, and bringing a 65pt minimum Librarian to twin-link a squad if he can successfully cast Prescience without it being denied seems far less efficient than simply bringing more guns in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, Divination is way more reliable. I just don't hate on Invisibility because it's ultimately up to the dice if you get it, making for quite the gamble between "uber-psyker" and "force weapon wielding dude who's mediocre in combat".

And don't get me wrong - Invisibility, and Telepathy in general, are really powerful. It's just that of all the ways to take the fun out of the game, Invisibility in a casual game seems to be one of the most common ways to do it.

Well would ya lookit that. While seeing if it was worth switching the PCs in the Devastators to MLs to get a couple points for Combi-Weapons I found out that they are the same points cost. The more you know!

Eh, as a general rule I don't like Missile Launchers in 7th. They can't kill tanks unless you're stripping their Hull Points, and with no readily accessible source of Ignores Cover and Str8, that's unlikely. I'd far sooner pay the 5pts for Lascannons, or bring Plasma Cannons and be a dedicated anti-infantry murder machine.

 

[Mossy Toes]

How do you counter Invisibility?

The most effective way, I've found, if you're not bringing 10+ MLs, would be: bring Karanak, a DE Archon with the anti-psy-nasty helm, or a Culexus. The Culexus is the nastiest, the only guaranteed "snuff out," though also the most fragile, since he can't join a unit and enemies only snap shots against him his first turn. But if you're just within 12" of the caster with the other two, you're basically guaranteeing a Perils, which is going to put a damper on anybody's casting.

With Space Marines, obviously, your best bet would be the Culexus, striking fear in the hearts of psykers everywhere.

 

[MidnightSun]

Yeah, a Culexus would neuter Invisibility completely, as well as any other psyker, and I'd certainly consider one if most pf my games were against powerful psykers (I'd definitely bring one against you, Mossy, to put the wind up Be'lakor for a turn if nothing else). However, many of my games have negligible psychic contribution, if any. I don't really need a Culexus most of the time. Of course, he's still worth bringing since he's a pretty annoying dude to have around even if there are no psykers, but that's a problem I'm having and I play Space Marines. How do Tyranids or Chaos Space Marines or Orks get that defence? (note - I am aware you can bring Come the Apocalypse allies, and while I'm a fairly lenient guy in terms of what fluff is or isn't allowed, bringing a Culexus for your Ork or Tyranid or Daemon army would require quite some explaining)

Ultimately, though, it's not about whoch codexes can access what answers to Invisibility; it's that I think it makes the game less interesting and, as shown by the existence of one solitary hard counter, devolves the game to be even more rock-paper-scissors than it is. And since I don't like playing against it, I won't use it.

 

[vonklaude]

HQ
Tigurius

ELITES
5 Sternguard with 4 Combi-Plasmas in Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino
10 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons
Vindicator with Legacy of Glory (Battle of Keylek)
Stormraven Gunship with Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, and Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

Just to note that Sternguard are generally best in a Rhino, shooting out the hatch. I think you get poor value for upgrading that to a Razor.