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Discussion Starter #1
I got a land raider for ard boyz and it was damaged, so I got a second one for free. I'm working on building a decent raider rush list with templars so as to use both of those and taking advantage of cheap Black reach termies + bitz I got from friends to make the army for pretty cheap. So far all I have is two raiders(1 Unbuilt) the Emperor's Champion and two scouts squads.

HQ: Emperor's Champion Accept any Challenge no matter the odds (army wide preferred enemy) 140

Elites:
Assault Terminators 3xLC 2x TH/SS Furious charge 215
Land Raider crusader Smoke Launchers 268

Assault Terminators 3xLC 2x TH/SS Furious charge 215

Venerable Dreadnought Assault Cannon Missile Launcher Tank Hunters 145

Troops:
5x Initiates 1 lascannon 90
5x Initiates 1 lascannon 90
5x Inquisitorial Storm troopers 123
2x meltaguns Rhino Smoke Launchers
5x Inquisitorial Storm troopers 123
2x meltaguns Rhino Smoke Launcher

Heavy Support
Land Raider 258
Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

This Comes to 1667, any ideas on what to buy with the remaining points?


Also I am aware this isn't as competitive as what I usually advocate for here, the issue is to try and get as cheap an army as possible while still remaining competitive.

I will be using scout models as IST's, they're going to be neophytes fluffwise, yeah my templars do things a bit differently oh well.
 

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I'd advocate a second crusader if possible. Also, the dread load out is a bit strange to me. I understand the strengths of 4 str 7 rending shots, but mixing it with a missile launcher seems less than optimal.

Other than that you have an ok rock list.
 

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HQ: Emperor's Champion Accept any Challenge no matter the odds (army wide preferred enemy) 140
No brainer. :)

Elites:
Assault Terminators 3xLC 2x TH/SS Furious charge 215
Land Raider crusader Smoke Launchers 268

Assault Terminators 3xLC 2x TH/SS Furious charge 215
These guys are okay, but you've got entirely too many points invested in Elites and their super expensive transports here. I'm sure you know that though.

Venerable Dreadnought Assault Cannon Missile Launcher Tank Hunters 145
Not the greatest fire support, but Templars tend to struggle in that department anyway.

Troops:
5x Initiates 1 lascannon 90
5x Initiates 1 lascannon 90
In my experience this is the absolute worst way to run Crusader squads. Remember that Black Templars are still subject to the Kill Them All! special rule requiring them to take a Leadership test at -1 to shoot an enemy unit that isn't the closest. It's not even a little bit worth it to take small fire support units. You'd be better off giving these guys bolters and a plasma or meltagun and running around trying to get in rapid fire range of stuff.

5x Inquisitorial Storm troopers 123
2x meltaguns Rhino Smoke Launchers
5x Inquisitorial Storm troopers 123
2x meltaguns Rhino Smoke Launcher
These aren't too bad.
Heavy Support
Land Raider 258
Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers
Might as well make this a Crusader.

This Comes to 1667, any ideas on what to buy with the remaining points?
You seriously need to pick up some transports for the Initiates, I think. A couple Rhinos would help them out a ton, though Templars have overly expensive Rhinos so you'll have to drop something somewhere to make room for them.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'd advocate a second crusader if possible. Also, the dread load out is a bit strange to me. I understand the strengths of 4 str 7 rending shots, but mixing it with a missile launcher seems less than optimal.

Other than that you have an ok rock list.
I tried the Twin las and missile launcher combo out which is the preferred build for venerable dreadnought in a templar list. However this list is low enough on anti tank that he ended up gunning down rhinos in the first games I played him and the single shots usually ended up bouncing of cover or not getting enough results to roll the magical 5 or 6 on the vehicle damage chart. Second game he still ended up gunning down rhinos but his weight of fire pulled through and he killed the one near him before being immobilized. Then the fact that the build can be effective against infantry as well saved my ass. So in conclusion I took it becasue of it's light armor busting potential and the ML because I needed something to compensate for the short range of AC


These guys are okay, but you've got entirely too many points invested in Elites and their super expensive transports here. I'm sure you know that though.
I think Black templar elites are where the strength of the army is, whatever these guys hit usually die. If I tried to make any other part of the FOC pull the same weight I think it would be a mistake. Our troops have overpriced transports and aren't actually that good in assault, fast attack gives us decent min/maxed bikes but assault marines are ridiculously expensive and mopt very goo anyway. Heavy support can get us vindicators and preds, and while our tri las preds are pretty cheap neither of those can fully handle anti infantry removal duty, vindis are too weak too mech and have too short range for that. Elites carry assault oriented black templars like no other slot can (well except hq but that's by taking command squads which are the same as elite choices)

Not the greatest fire support, but Templars tend to struggle in that department anyway.
Yeah, well I need anti mech in this list and I'll take him over a tri las any day (also dreadnoughts are really cheap on ebay, predators are not)

In my experience this is the absolute worst way to run Crusader squads. Remember that Black Templars are still subject to the Kill Them All! special rule requiring them to take a Leadership test at -1 to shoot an enemy unit that isn't the closest. It's not even a little bit worth it to take small fire support units. You'd be better off giving these guys bolters and a plasma or meltagun and running around trying to get in rapid fire range of stuff.
True, every other list I've run them in they've had a marshal or castellan to let them take the test on 8 or 9. I would not be better off taking small units with plasma guns, and here's why. This list needs anti mech so bad it hurts and these guys give it to them while fufilling my minimum troop requirement. If they had plasma or melta that would mean they would be moving up taking fire and presenting a threat, which is the opposite of what I want them to do. these guys sit on objectives and make my opponent make the hard decisions of whether or not to kill my objective holders or the part of the list that is actually going to kill them. People either ignore them until late in the game or shoot at them from the beginning which takes the heat off the rest of my army. Not all builds are blessed with troops that work well with them like most 5th ed armies have so we have to work around that and use ways such as preventing minimal threat to try and make shooting at them before you've pretty much won the battle not a great option.



Might as well make this a Crusader.
It's cheaper the list needs more anti tank and I've rarely found the hurricane bolters to be very useful, only reason I took a crusader is cause the champion needed a ride.

You seriously need to pick up some transports for the Initiates, I think. A couple Rhinos would help them out a ton, though Templars have overly expensive Rhinos so you'll have to drop something somewhere to make room for them.
No they have no need to get close and that's 100 points I can't really spare to keep the fire off units that aren't high target priorities anyway. Now If I could get 5th ed codex razorbacks i would be all over that but I can't so no.



It is a rock list based around heavy units and does have some serious weakness however within the genre of list (templar raider rush) I don't see a lot of ways to circumvent those.
 

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My suggestions were entirely in the context of this specific list. In my experience Black Templars are at their best using a Black Tide build. Gigantic units of Crusaders led by Chaplains with fire support units to help them with the stuff they can't deal with on their own. You'll find in that sort of army that its the Troops that do the majority of the damage - most of the Elite choices are nothing compared to the steamroller tactic. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My suggestions were entirely in the context of this specific list. In my experience Black Templars are at their best using a Black Tide build. Gigantic units of Crusaders led by Chaplains with fire support units to help them with the stuff they can't deal with on their own. You'll find in that sort of army that its the Troops that do the majority of the damage - most of the Elite choices are nothing compared to the steamroller tactic. :p
Ah yes good old templorks, I just don't think they can compete in 5th. Focusing fire overcomes the d6 inch advance from being shot pretty easy, depending on what their fire support is they won't have an easy time killing mech and they'll be outmaneuvered by anything in tanks. Considering their basically foot assault marines with scouts at that point dedicated assault units will wipe the floor with them and while a lot of marine bodies is not fun to kill in shooting they will take a long time to get to you so shooting them to death then tank shocking the survivors off objectives isn't hard.

also I just finished playing real orks and am really looking forward to a small body count army that dosen't take all day to move.

while yes in that particular build the troops do most of the damage our best anti infantry fire our most efficient close combat and some very good anti tank both come form the elites section in the form of assault terminators regular terminators and dreadnoughts. Furious charging LC terminators are just brutal 3 of them average 8 dead marines at I5, stick the emperors champion or a character with them and that gets even higher. for 215 points little else in our list compares to that.

I don't really intend on changing much with the troops as I just don't think I can get the points off anywhere else without really hurting the theme of the list, is there anything you would suggest other then the dreadnought for fire support or ways to get better anti tank into his list.
 

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This Comes to 1667, any ideas on what to buy with the remaining points?
Well you're short on anti-armour and shit that moves fast so speeders.
 
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