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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK, this is a the list that a lot of you helped me refine for a tourney that's in 2 wks and i just played it. I barely won an annihilation game. My termies and dreads did absolutely nothing even close to there points worth.

Librarian in Termie armor w/SS w/Avenger and Null

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas and extra armor

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas and extra armor

6 Termies with TH/SH

7 Sniper Scouts w/Telion, cloaks, RL

Thunderfire Cannon

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Dreadnought w/RL, Auto-cannon

Dreadnought w/RL, Auto-cannon


So i was thinking of modifying it to be like this and wanted to know what you think.


Librarian w/Avenger and Null

Librarian w/Avenger and Null

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas and extra armor

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas and extra armor

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas and extra armor

7 Sniper Scouts w/Telion, cloaks, RL

Thunderfire Cannon

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

And I would still have 165pts left over for something. All opinions are welcomed.
 

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I would take out the thunderfire cannon and try to get some more transports and men. I think the extra armour on the razorbacks may be wasted points. The razorbacks are there for fire support and protecting the men inside. May want to get a rhino and have a full ten man squad seeing how five man squads can get eaten up fast. I have no personal experience with telion myself, but you may find the points useful somewhere else.

Just my opinion. Good luck.
 

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I would take out the thunderfire cannon and try to get some more transports and men. I think the extra armour on the razorbacks may be wasted points. The razorbacks are there for fire support and protecting the men inside. May want to get a rhino and have a full ten man squad seeing how five man squads can get eaten up fast. I have no personal experience with telion myself, but you may find the points useful somewhere else.

Just my opinion. Good luck.
Telion can be very good, but find out how your group are house-ruling him first. By RAW Telion's Stealth applies to his squad :ireful2:, so you don't need cloaks. That makes him far more efficient. However, some benighted souls insist that despite Stealth only applying to a unit, there are mysterious extra words that tell you it applies only to Telion. Note: Telion is not an IC.

EA on Razorbacks as you have them set up is pointless. You want them firing and either shaken or stunned stops that. EA on Rhinos can be good.

A lot of ppl go ML and melta. I feel this is inefficient, because even combat-squadded you will have four guys sitting around doing nothing just so that one ML can fire. I suggest MM and melta. That aligns range. Another possibility is 5xDevastator with 4xML instead of that third Tac. They can still take the Razorback.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Telion has always earned his points back so i really don't want to give him up. And a lot of people at my club play with those retarded Eldar rangers with their damn 2++, and the thunderfire negates that easily.And good point about the EA on the razorbacks. So with taking them off I have 210pts. what should i get?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok this is the final list. What do people think?

Librarian w/Avenger and Null

Librarian w/Avenger and Null

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas

10 man Tactical w/PW, combi-flamer, Melta, RL, and Razorback w/las-plas

5 man Tactical w/PF, combi-flamer, and Razorback w/las-plas

7 Sniper Scouts w/Telion, cloaks, RL

Thunderfire Cannon

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The thunderfire took out 3 sniper scouts and 2 marines. But it also drew quite a lot of firepower from other troops as well as allowing me to fortify a ruin to have a 3++ cover save for most units and 2++ for my scouts. So it def earns its points.
 

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So this is irrelevant to your final goal but the first list you have is bad because your assault terminators have to foot slog all over the board, I believe the general consciences is that assault terminators need a land raider to get to targets else don’t bring them to the table.

More on topic though; your final list has a lot of troops, 42 to be exact. My 1500 point list has 20 just to give you an idea as to why I say that’s a lot. It defiantly is a good way to get a lot of Razorbacks on the table though, and I can see some people making poor targeting decisions when faced with so many razorbacks and ML combat squads, but I guess what matters is how do you plan to use them and why do you think you need that many?

I like the concept though so let us know how play testing goes.

And @ vonklaude: MM on Tac squads is something I don’t agree with. Keep in mind that it’s a heavy weapon and that it has a short range. So to use it you have to get in range ie. move(doesn’t mater how) which means you then can’t shoot it until next turn so if your opponent is smart he’ll move out of range and then you won’t be able to shoot.
 

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i would drop the PF on the 5 man tactical as with only 5 wounds, there is a chance your expensive PF wont even get to hit. PW would be more suitable i feel.

please use ML instead of RL as it a missle launcher not a rokkit launcher, just for easier reading!

and i cant help feeling a dev squad, and 2 5 man squads of tacticals in a RB with las/plas and a rhino with a full 10 man possibly more effective as you dont have 4 guys sitting around, and only a ML hitting on 3+ for a group of guys worth 80 points. that said, if it's working for you keep it, just a suggestion!

glad the thunderfire is working though, bloody hate rangers..
 

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Quick question... how often do you find your tacs in combat? Normally when I run tac squads in razorbacks, I'm JUST doing it for the free ML. So the sgt gets nothin in most of my Marine builds.

Two Libbys might be excessive... thier main goal is to shut down the other guy's psy... I think you could use the 100 Pts back...

I HATES me a thunderfire cannon, but I get your love for the thing... But I wouldn't trade one of the preds for devs as suggested above... so 2 preds and a thunderfire cannon will work...

Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of shooty dreads... so that's where I'd put them.. YMMV. Or I'd drop in 3 typhoons with MM.... Or mix and match... but being able to get three more hard shooting units into the mix can only be good.

I'll mess about on Army builder tonight to see how to optimize it...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the help. But I try not to get my squads into combat but it happens cause I ussually set 1-2 squads in midfield to hold objectives. But should I drop the squads down to 5 to save points? And I don't have any speeders so I cant have them in my list. And help you can give is appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Ok, how does this list sound? Does it weaken my troops to much though? And I lose three scoring units though and make my remaining troops only 5 man strong for annihilation but i gain three dreads. And what powers should I give my Librarian?

Librarian

5 man Tactical w/PW and Razorback w/las-plas

5 man Tactical w/PW and Razorback w/las-plas

5 man Tactical w/PW and Razorback w/las-plas

5 man Tactical w/PW and Razorback w/las-plas

7 Sniper Scouts w/Telion, cloaks, ML

Thunderfire Cannon

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Pred w/Auto turret, LC spnsons

Rifleman Dreadnought

Rifleman Dreadnought

Rifleman Dreadnought

I still have 33pts left over.
 

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List looks good... Here's the question... Is Tellion worth another Razorback squad? If so then I'd run with what you have... With 9 long range threats every turn, and everything being cheap you've made a good MSU list...

Check your points though... For 1750 on the nose, I got the following into a list
Libby
3 x 5 man tac squads in Razorbacks
1 x 10 man tac squad in Razorback
2 x Autolas Preds
Thunderfire Cannon
3 x Rifleman Dreads
7 Scouts with Cloaks, ML and Tellion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok, ill check the points as soon as I get to my book. But what powers should i give my Libby?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I double and triple checked my points and the army i have comes to 1717
 

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Normally i would go with a combi weapon on 3 of your sergeants but seeing as that would give you less attacks...I would just either add two scouts or pick two tac squads and add a guy, since the razorback can hold six men...
 

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Your list is unbalanced - fabulous shooting but less than mediocre in HtH.

You can take a view on this - unbalanced lists are quite good for tournie play particularly for middle ranking players as they can overwhelm a more balanced force. But they inevitably have a nemesis. Yours would be a fast moving and/or high wounds count close combat army - think Chaos Daemons (see Scuzzlebum's list from the batrep on the tournie he just won for an example, it's on the Chaos Daemons army list part of this site), or Green Tide Orks, or Nids.

Assuming you are going for the 'shoot the hell out of them' approach, you need to consider how you are going to capture, and hold, objectives (after all 2/3rds of games require this). The scouts might manage to sneak in to contest something but their never going to dislodge a proper unit (eg 8 Plague Marines). So you'll probably need to commit at least 2 5 man squads to do the job. How does that fit with your overall strategy and weapon load out? For that reason I'd want at least 1 10 man squad in a Rhino and properly tooled up for CC.

Lastly, and this is just my preference, I don't like the Las and T-L Plas combo on the Razors in this type of army. The mix of ranges makes me feel that you are paying for flexibility that, by definition, you are not intending to use. T-L Las is better if you intend to sit back and shoot as it allows you to max the advantages of having long range weapons (The Eldar in particular can struggle because of their lack of 48" range weapons). If OTOH you are going to roll forward aggressively with the Razors (which doesn't really fit with the rest of the army build) T-L AC are the best bet.

Regards
TT
 

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I just looked back again at your original list.

To me it seems you could get a well balanced and effective list from this without too many changes.

Basically I'd drop a Predator, take the Dreads in bare bones configuration (MM + DCCW), drop the extra armour from the Razors, and drop Telion. That would buy (if my maths is right) a Land Raider Redeemer to transport the Termies and Librarian. That gives you a unit for going across the board and taking objectives (which the Scouts can then claim) and Dreads that can support the assault. The rest of your army can then sit back and shoot, or if you are feeling brave, you can Combat Squad the Tac Marines and go objective hunting in the Razors.


Regards
TT
 

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I disagree... Termies and a LR do not make you balanced.... if anything it will knock you the other way...

Balanced means that you have a solution for each type of problem that comes your way. So for tanks, there is an obvious answer. For Hordes, any razorspam deriviative will struggle a little. The way to play is to focus fire on one thing at a time. Thunderfire cannon will get to be useful and Tellion's Eye of Vengence will put his shots onto the Nob and then the boys are pretty well hosed... You just need to make sure you're attacking with multiple units of 5... and bolter fire the hell out of them... so you have an answer for Hordes...

For objective games, you don't have to hold your opponent's objective to win... You rely on the fact that you have 6 tanks and three dreads to contest. Set up for a turn 5 tank shock.... Move 12" and pop smoke... IF they have anything left to shoot after turn 4-5, then you get a cover... and for CC they're hitting on 6s...

The problem with what Truthteller is saying is that you run the risk of making your list unfocused... which means you do nothing expecially well... and you will ALWAYS struggle vs a focused list... Either go shooty or go Close combatty... but if you try to do both at the same time, you end up doing nothing well.
 

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CLT - you and I do see things differently.

I fully understand what you are saying but - just my opinion - I think you need to be able to both fight and shoot if you are to be successful.

As I said above an unbalanced list (what you call focussed) will overwhelm some opponents. The advantage is that this will happen as long as you don't play like a muppet - your list will win the game for you. But equally it will lose big against some types of army because it is a one trick pony - and no amount of brilliant generalship will save you.

A balanced list (what you call unfocussed) will struggle against an unbalnced list BUT it will also always have some area of advantage. So if you play well you can win. Equally, play below par and you'll lose.

I just think that a balanced army is a more satisfying way to play and win games. Maybe I'm just an old romantic.

Regards
TT
 
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