[Tossidin]

Hey all, long time since I have been in this section of the forum

So, I have used a "wolfwing" army for some time (Termis and long fangs), and though I have had some success, I think I have to change the list to stand better up against armies like IG, and after poundered some over it, I have decided to ditch my terminators, only leaving the Cyclone missil launchers and characters left in TDA.
Before explaining my reasoning and tactics, this is the list:

Logan Grimnar 275


Wolf guard (10) 445
1-7: PA
8: Arjac
9: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher
10: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher, Wolf claw

Wolf guard (5) 135
1: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher
2-5: PA

Wolf guard (5) 135
1: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher
2-5: PA

Wolf guard (5) 135
1: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher
2-5: PA

Wolf guard (5) 135
1: TDA, Cyclone missil launcher
2-5: PA


Long fangs (6) w/ 5x Multimeltas 175
Drop pod

Long fangs (6) w/ 5x Missil launcher 175
Drop pod

Long fangs (6) w/ 5x Missil launcher 140


By the title and the list, you should have a pretty good idea of what I am trying to achieve with this list. MOAR MISSILES! (22 missiles a round, at potentially 9 targets) The goal has been to have enough shooting to stop mech armys in their tracks, while still having enough survivability to last through the game. Also, I have drop pods on 2 long fang squads. While it is obvious what they can do, it is still wery effective. For those not familiar with it, I attach Grimnar and Arjac to the long fang squad armed with multimeltas, Grimnar giving them relentless so that when they drop, I have 5 multimeltas and a Str 10 AP 1 hammer splitfiring into the targets I don't like (They are aso combat monsters). The second drop (empty) pod makes me able to keep this unit in reserve if the enemy is reserving. They also make for good roadblocks if I choose to deploy the characters in their units.

So, I have 39 bodies on the table, 16 of these oacking missile launchers of some sort. 8 of them are terminators (2 of these characters), and the rest are power armour armed wolfguards.
It is essentialy a gunine army, with the added bonus of a drop pod of doom.

39 guys aren't really that much, and might not seem that survivable, and frankly, they aren't. The only thing keeping them alive is shooting the opponents "ways of killing them" to death, making life a ittle easier. The added terminators make them quite durable against small arms fire, but I think the bonus lays in that there are 5 troop units to kill, and you will have to comitt to kill them, or they are going to keep on laying down missiles. They are reatively easy to take down in the assault, though the 4 PA wolfguard packs 16 attacks on the counterattack, and that coupled with a power weapon armed terminator can actually make a little dent in the attackers, though I wouldn't expect them to survive (if we aren't talking about the 10 man squad, which is my next point).

Even though many targets makes it easier to survive, I elected to have 1 squad of 10, and also chose this as Arjacs squad.
This squad makes for many possibilitys. First of all they spew out 4 missiles each round, they are actually quite hard to get rid of, but most of all they give me a "solid" (if you can call it that) backbone, especially in the assault. Also, if Arjac is in the squad, their effectiveness is thrice doubled, and last but not leas, a 10 man squad is much more effective with Grimnar, as he grants the squad special rules, and 10 gets more from it than 5.

Hmmm, this has become quite a rambling... Anyway, my last point is that if I ellect to not drop pod the multimelta long fangs, they may to some seem a little weak. Not so though. They are essentially missile armed ong fangs with a 24'' range, and AP 1. I would also attach Grimnar to them, so that they can advance and fire (now being 30'' range), and just have the 10 man squad close so Grimnar can join them when he wishes (the long fangs now being in a good position to stand and lay down some melta fire.
If I now play aganst a assault based mech army, it would be only to easy to get to shoot with them.


So, these are my reasoings and thoughts on my army. I would ask of you that you give me your thoughts on it, how you think it could be more effective, how you would try to beat it, and what you think would be my worst opponent. And whatever else you can think of!
Just don't tell me "wolfwing" isn't effective, as I have seen some people say, as it is, and more importantly, I am going for best painted with it, so Logan (Or Ragnars wolf guard battle leader actually) will be the basis of the army.
Also, I have no restrictions on what I can use (like deathwing diehards), so any unit is viable (if I can get my hands on them).

-Tossidin out

 

[Hurricane]

Hmmm, a bunch of footslogging marines walking across the table are going to get blown away by the very armies you want to beat. The reason to take a loganwing army is to use the HUGE amount of variety that wolf guard have available to them. I would drop arjac and the wolf claw on that TDA / cyclone to give rhinos to all of your wolf guard packs.

Instead of dropping Arjac you could also drop one wolf guard squad and remove one long fang from each pack. Something along those lines would work fine too.

You seriously need to take advantage of all those upgrades. Give them a sprinkling of power fists, wolf claws, and combi weapons.

 

[Tossidin]

A bunch of footslogging marines packing enough firepower to cripple enemy forces

The reason to take a loganwing army is to get Cyclone missil launchers on troops that don't suck
(All in my opinion)

Not totally sure why I would give them rhinos. I have thought of razorbacks to give me more firepower, but the rhino would only be moving cover as I can't embark in them (also losing all advantages in killpoints).
And I would not remove Arjac, ever.

I have, as I mentioned, played with an all TDA army, with every wolf guard wound allocating due to wargear, and it has only been usefull due to them having 2+ save. With a 3+, it will be half as effective, and not even close to worth the points.
Also, be aware that if I start with wound allocating, I lose a serious amount of bodies, which presents my opponent with fewer targets, and losing a squad would be even more damaging to my force. The least thing I need is a sprinkling of power fists, wolf claws and combi weapons on the wery guys who are there to give me more wounds, and losing bodies while I am at it. Then I really would get blown of the table by the armies I am trying to beat

 

[Hurricane]

Put your cyclones with your long fangs...problem solved. I swear to you that if you are running PA wolf guard on foot in groups of 5-6 guys you will be obliterated by many lists and even that many missiles will not help. Especially against IG...well all I can say is you better get first turn or most if not all of your walking PA wolf guard will be annihilated. You may drop more killpoints in 1/3 of the missions but you are hopeless in objective missions without any troops unless you want to try to tie.

 

[Tossidin]

In a list like this I will not put my CML with the long fangs, du to the fact that the advantage I have with the CML is the fact that I can move and shoot.
Also, I know I have some problems with guard (my last list also had), and if I don't get first turn, I should be screwed (who aren't, really ). But, I have faith in The Emperor, it count for something.
I could go back to "all terminators", and lose firepower for survivability (and less models to paint!!!!!), though I am not sure.

Would you care to enlighten me as to why you would buy rhinos for them by the way? I can, of course, go mech again, it just isn't half as fun as footslogging in a world of mech though. And then I would just go with grey hunters etc, and why not runepriests instead of Logan, etc... Which is not what I want, even though i cripples me.

I believe some more playtesting is in order at the least :grin:

 

[Hurricane]

Ok so when I build my lists, killpoints are always the furthest thing on my mind. 2/3 of the missions don't care about them and when it does I simply play a tad more conservatively. I also don't make lists with hugely expensive components. I play those "boring" lists in which I field multiples of every unit and I make sure that unit has duality of purpose. For example my grey hunters are all

grey hunterx9, meltagun (or maybe plasma), MotW, standard, rhino
wolf guard w/ powerfist and combi-melta

Then all my grey hunter packs will be exactly like this. I don't offer units that, if killed, will severely cripple me for the rest of the game and I make sure I protect everything that I do have.

Wolf guard armies can be very fun but if you aren't using them to their full advantage then you are simply fielding five 3+ armor save models without any protection. You will quickly run out of troops to take objectives. To be honest I see most semi-competitive shooting list ripping this to pieces, and any assault list too actually. Dedicated CC units will tear to pieces your wolf guard packs and I can think of a number of things to keep myself away from Logan and Arjac such as lash, murderous hurricane, etc.

To be sure it is a dangerous combination, but as it is the only dangerous target close to home it will divert all shooting to it. Usually that would be dangerous as your other units get a turn to keep moving forward, but I'm not afraid of five PA marines with CC weapons and nothing else.

 

[Tossidin]

Heh, you are running your grey hunters identical to mine (bar 1 GH).

I don't even think of kill points really, (6 AV 10 killpoints in my Eldar 1500 list... go figure) it just seemed wierd to me having rhinos at the cost of my combat prowes, when they only would provide easy targets in killpoints, and cover saves (which I should have anyway) in cobjectives, though contesting would be good (missing my eldar tanks alredy).

Could you give me an example of how you would run an army with Grimnar? I have run some variations, but it would be good to see it from eomeone elses perspective

 

[Hurricane]

Why don't I just link you to some pre-existing lists here on Heresy that people have submitted that I like...mainly so I don't have to make my own right now. k:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64684

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64969

In both of these threads you'll find some good Logan lists and how to take advantage of the wolf guard. All credit goes to the people who made these lists.

 

[Tossidin]

Hmmm. Quite good lists (though more points). At least I have something to think about. Will be back when I have a new list put together. Thanks for the help

 

[Katie Drake]

If you're having trouble with Guard, here's the magic solution to annihilating their vehicles. EDIT: Now that I think of it you can probably use this against just about anybody due to the great number of mechanized armies.

Logan Grimnar
Rune Priest with Living Lightning and power of your choice plus Chooser.

Long Fang pack with 3 missile launchers and 2 lascannons

Add in a Wolf Guard Terminator with a cyclone missile launcher.

Have all these models join the Long Fang unit. Pick primary target (like a juicy Leman Russ) and a secondary target (whatever else you wanna blow up). Use Logan's ability to grant the unit Tank Hunter and laugh as you fire 5 krak missiles that are effectively Strength 9 against vehicles, 2 S10 lascannon shots and D6 effectively Strength 8 Living Lightning Shots. You can blow up two Leman Russ tanks a turn doing this. If you instead need to move, have Logan give the unit Relentless so you can shuffle about with no need to let up the firepower. Just be sure to deploy these guys in cover and you're good to go.

 

[LuLzForTheLuLzGoD]

WTF katie you can actually do that shit? D:
I might cry

 

[Katie Drake]

WTF katie you can actually do that shit? D:
I might cry

It's not shit. It's a legitimate tactic. It's also very points intensive and vulnerable to shooting. It cost an absolute minimum of 680 points (and that's assuming no transports are bought for the Wolf Guard, that the other four Wolf Guard are given no upgrades at all, that the Rune Priest has no upgrades and there's no transport for the Long Fangs or additional weaponry other than that listed.

On the bright side, it's amusing to give the unit Preferred Enemy in the opponent's turn if they decide that assaulting you sounds like a good idea.

Really, the only time I'd recommend using something like this in serious games is in 'Ard Boyz level points, or maybe a bit less - certainly no less than 2K.

 

[Drizzt_13]

It's not shit. It's a legitimate tactic. It's also very points intensive and vulnerable to shooting. It cost an absolute minimum of 680 points (and that's assuming no transports are bought for the Wolf Guard, that the other four Wolf Guard are given no upgrades at all, that the Rune Priest has no upgrades and there's no transport for the Long Fangs or additional weaponry other than that listed.

On the bright side, it's amusing to give the unit Preferred Enemy in the opponent's turn if they decide that assaulting you sounds like a good idea.

Really, the only time I'd recommend using something like this in serious games is in 'Ard Boyz level points, or maybe a bit less - certainly no less than 2K.

Responding to the bit in italics: I disagree it's actually not that powerful of a combo because it's just not very efficient. 680 points to kill heavy tanks when meltaguns are already so efficient at it and you have them available pretty cheaply.

By math those 5 S 9 shots give 10/27 odds of killing a russ, the lascannons 3/27. So 16/27 is pretty good odds but it's far from two dead russes a turn, more like two stunned russes a turn, and while that's nice odds are your going to be having to use the same combo to supress them again next turn, so not really efficient. In total that's a 37 percent chance to kill. Meltaguns have an 18% kill chance per shot on av 14, two multimelta speeders generate the same anti av 14 for a lot cheaper, while not as survivable they do generate more concern for your opponent as target priority because help overtax the light anti tank guns which your opponent needs to deal with other stuff in your list. Also more likely to ignore cover as more maneuverability let's you chose your lane of fire better. While obviously there are something your unit build does better for raw efficiency melta can't be beat.

The main reason I'm responding to this is because so often people (looking at you lulz) don't know what competitive list building is all about and get the wrong idea. Ruthless efficiency is the hallmark of competitive list building not silly win buttons or super units, real power gamers no how to use tanks and move blocking to screw up those darn super units regardles of how they move and teach you why you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

This combo is a fun and silly super unit it's a cool combo that won't fly in tournaments but you may actuaklly get to work in friendly games, that's why I think it is a much more of an LGS thing then an ardboyz thing, though of course what flies in the LGS is totally different from place to place.

 

[LuLzForTheLuLzGoD]

that maybe so but that so called super is gona be pretty hard to budge and abit of a worry tho a tad expensive still more fun and exciting than the same old crap you see at tournaments im not really bothered about seriously competitve lists winning is awesome yea but i dont wana win because i have one of those best of lists that you love to spam.
I think it is a good idea and seems pretty fun and quite effective tho you seem to want to kick down the door and state that good players dont need thse types of units seriously I couldnt care less if your one of these super players go play with your unbeatable tactics ill stick epic lulz and silly units.
plus whats more fun than turning up to a tourny with say 50 conscripts with a commie lord running around looking for cc some things have to be done not for the sake of being super cereal but trying shit out having a good time.....iv sorta gotten myself lost now so ill just leave smily faces.

 

[Katie Drake]

plus whats more fun than turning up to a tourny with say 50 conscripts with a commie lord running around looking for cc some things have to be done not for the sake of being super cereal but trying shit out having a good time...

Showing up with a hard list to play against other people with hard lists employing a mix of strategy and tactics to mentally out-muscle your opponent and hopefully have a close game while doing it.

There's a time and a place for craziness - it's usually referred to as a "friendly game". Tournaments are where you bring your A game against others doing the same.

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

back on topic: is Arjac really that good? i've always considered him to be a bit of points sink mysel, but is he really that awesome?

i just figure you could use his points on more WG or some other kind of unit to divert fire from the WG (Speeders?). just a thought.

good hunting.

 

[gen.ahab]

I have insta killed kharn with him in the shooting phase.

 

[Drizzt_13]

I have insta killed kharn with him in the shooting phase.

And I've used flayed one's to kill farsight, dosen't mean they don't suck. Tell me why he's worth his massive cost and then we're talking not what he's done on the tabletop in situations unique to you. Alternatively as Arjac is the chuck norris of 40k you could just amuse with a joke.

 

[gen.ahab]

Him alone? Not worth shit puked out a duck. With a large unit? He is one hell of a IC killer and a bitch of a kill but I wouldn't use him and don't in my competitive lists. He is good in lower class games, not meaning points, because he can't be targeted and he hits everything on a 3+ with a S10 attack and all attacks must go to IC. So he is good in that sense but like I said, not a competitive choice. He isn't bad but not really worth it tbh.

 

[Drizzt_13]

Him alone? Not worth shit puked out a duck. With a large unit? He is one hell of a IC killer and a bitch of a kill but I wouldn't use him and don't in my competitive lists. He is good in lower class games, not meaning points, because he can't be targeted and he hits everything on a 3+ with a S10 attack and all attacks must go to IC. So he is good in that sense but like I said, not a competitive choice. He isn't bad but not really worth it tbh.

Yeah I agree with you, especially since the only Ic's which anyone uses in combat have eternal warrior or are simply cheap throwaways now he isn't worth too much.

Mostly i just wanted you to give an actual analysis of him instead of an anecdote, which you did, so now people who disagree with you can discuss it, unfortunately that's not me.