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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yes, the twilight list because I tried to put together Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I would like to do a test and deliver to you the "naked" list and see what you can understand from it (it's a tournament list and it's usefull to see how people react to the list alone without explication). Do you think it could be competitive ?

Blood Angel Primary Detachment :

QG
- Librarian in terminator armour (sanguine sword and shield of Sanguinius)

ELITE
- Chaplain in terminator armour
- Sanguinary priest

TROUPS
- 5 men assault squald with a meltagun
drop pod with deathwind missile launcher
- 5 men assault squald with a meltagun
drop pod with deathwind missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
- stormraven with twinlinked lascanons and twinlinked multimelta
- stormraven with twinlinked lascanons and twinlinked multimelta

FORTIFICATION
- Imperial bastion with quadgun

Space Wolves Allies :

QG
- Wolf priest with the saga of the hunter

ELITE
- 3 wolf guards with combi-melta
- 1 wolf guard in terminator armour
- 1 wolf guard in terminator armour and cyclone missile launcher

TROUPS
- 15 Blood Claws with 2 flamers

HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5 long fangs with 4 missile launchers
 

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Blood Angels and Space Wolves, still a better romance then twilight... Sorry, had to be said.
 

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Your Terminators can't play nice with your other squads, so I'm not sure their purpose. They won't be able to keep up with the Assault Squads and their jump packs... and those JP squads already have Drop Pods, so how are they being transported?

Who's manning the Aegis, your Longfangs? And again, what's the Stormravens? Just expensive flying tanks?
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Your Terminators can't play nice with your other squads, so I'm not sure their purpose. They won't be able to keep up with the Assault Squads and their jump packs... and those JP squads already have Drop Pods, so how are they being transported?

Who's manning the Aegis, your Longfangs? And again, what's the Stormravens? Just expensive flying tanks?
If you studied well the Blood Angel codex, you would have known that if I took Drop pods for the assault squads then they have to go by foot.

So here is my general plan :
- the cyclon join the long fangs in the bastion or on the roof depending on the situation or reach the quad gun turn 2. Well, I'm not sure I need someone to handle the quad gun after all ...
- 3 drop pods (the 2 from the assault squads are empty) for a suicidal melta unit and 2 to troll the aegis lines with str5 pieplates
- the chaplain, the sanguinary priest, the wolf priest and the last wolf guard terminator join the Blood Claws unit to rush the ennemy. If I don't outflank them, the librarian will join them. The aim is to produce an uber unit that would worry the opponent. 58 str5 attacks with a lot of rethrowable dices, FNP, 4+ cover. Add to this the characters's attacks ...
- the assault squads will play the MSU style (forgotten because not frigthening or embarked in the stormravens)

But how you react is what I intended to reach in fact.

FYI might want to change the red text, that's mod only.
Done, really sorry, the orange is less Baal but still quite Blood Angel so ok for me :victory: .
 

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Question: Are your wolf priests 3 different squads? I don't understand the space wolf rules. If they are, keep in mind that allies can only have 1 elite choice.

Now.

Interesting idea with the pods: I haven't seen anything like it. It might work, but it's a tactic I'm unfamiliar with.

The chaplain only effects the blood angels, fyi, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking him for some naked assault marines.

Do you need the bastion if you have the ravens? They kill all the fliers up in there.

Longs fangs should probably be in a bigger squad, just so that they don't lose missiles as easily. Maybe take points from the bastion?

This is a very slow list, something I'm not accustomed to in BA. I'm not entirely sure how to comment.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Question: Are your wolf priests 3 different squads? I don't understand the space wolf rules. If they are, keep in mind that allies can only have 1 elite choice.
Yes, they are only one unit and 2 of them are detached to be part of blood claws and long fongs.

The chaplain only effects the blood angels, fyi, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking him for some naked assault marines.
I wouldn't be that sure because of the description of Liturgies of Blood p.42 from the BA codex and the battle brothers rules p.112 of the BRB.

Do you need the bastion if you have the ravens? They kill all the fliers up in there. Longs fangs should probably be in a bigger squad, just so that they don't lose missiles as easily. Maybe take points from the bastion?
It is basically an immobile AV14 vehicule and I need it to isolate long fangs from tau SMS or any other necron speciality.
 

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Blood Angels FAQ has already stated that their characters, such as Chaplains and Priests, only affect their own Codex, not Blood Brothers.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Damn FAQ ... so I have to rethink the list. That shouldn't be that much a problem.

Let some times and I will come back with a legal list.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ok, ok, so what do you think about this new one :

Blood Angel Primary Detachment :

QG
- Librarian in terminator armour (sanguine sword and shield of Sanguinius)

TROUPS
- 5 men assault squad with a meltagun
drop pod with deathwind missile launcher
- 5 men assault squad with a flamer
drop pod with deathwind missile launcher
- 5 men assault squad
drop pod with deathwind missile launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
- stormraven with twinlinked lascanons and twinlinked multimelta
- stormraven with twinlinked lascanons and twinlinked multimelta
- stormraven with twinlinked lascanons and twinlinked multimelta

FORTIFICATION
- Imperial bastion with com relay

Space Wolves Allies :

QG
- Wolf priest with the saga of the hunter

ELITE
- 3 wolf guards with combi-melta
drop pod

TROUPS
- 15 Blood Claws with 2 flamers

HEAVY SUPPORT
- 5 long fangs with 4 missile launchers


So the plan changed slightly. Still a bastion with long fangs, blood claws outflank with the wolf priest and the librarian, 3 MSU embarked in the stormravens or forgotten. And a deathwind drop pod strike backed up by the wolf guards whose mission is to un-mech something and create some trouble and die (but bravely).
 

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I like your 'troup' selections. :biggrin:

I really just don't get the point of your BA side of things. Yeah, three Stormravens is ballsy, but you aren't backing them up with much. RAS are really only good at chewing enemy troops choices and even then, without jump packs it's a tough ride for them. Their maneuverability is usually what keeps them alive in my experience.

At 1750 I don't see much in this list that blows me away or strikes me as overly competitive, but I don't play in tournaments. Can a BA Librarian join a SW squad and get to infiltrate, even as Battle Brothers? I don't have my BRB on the phone any more. However, if that IS the case you're still playing reserves illegally. RAS, SR and WG aside, you have 4 squads left on table for deployment and you're proposing to outflank three of those units.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well, I can count 5 units on the table :
- Liby
- Wolf priest
- blood claws
- long fangs
- bastion

Rounding it up, I can infiltrate 3 of them and that's what I propose (unless there is another damn FaQ I didn"t read, that's more than possible).
 

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Your Bastion doesn't count. It's a Fortification, and ownership depends on who is currently occupying it in game. If you're looking for where it says a Bastion doesn't count, it doesn't have to. Reserves refer to units and Fortifications are terrain, hence the Terrain Type entry in their datasheets.
 

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I still think this is debatable, as some fortifications have weapons you can specifically buy, which kind of makes the weapons a 'unit', whether it can be used by your opponent or not.
Comms Relay with Aegis only affects your own units (+1 to reserve rolls) and your opponent cannot even 'take it over' like they could a Quad Gun if I am not mistaken.

That said, I do not count Aegis with Quad Gun as a unit (for the purposes of the 50% reserve limit) in my current lists, as I recognise it's a contentious issue, and I feel arguing the point invokes a WAAC kind of attitude and can be a bit unsporting.
 

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In this case though I would say the Bastion is just terrain (does it have weapons?) so isn't a unit. Same as if you just took an ADL by itself. Very hard to argue that that is a unit.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Right, it's a terrain who have specific rules.

I feel the contrary about buidlings being not a unit. If you read the BRB p.92 you can read this :


The aegis defense line is a different case because it's a debris and have some other rules. Buildings are units because they are immobile transport vehicules with some different rules. Some buildings are neutral, the one I bought is one my units another player can control (in really few words, a terrible shortcut I must admit).

A vehicule is a unit, a building is a vehicule so a building is a unit.

Unless there is another FaQ that I didn't read, and it's more than possible.
 

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They just compare buildings to transports because it saved them writing out the rules for embarking twice. If fortifications were units they would have 'unit type' not 'terrain type' in their BRB entries. The first line of that is "buildings of all types use aspects of the transport vehicle rules". It doesn't say they are transports.

Pretty much all terrain has special rules.
 

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Comms Relay with Aegis only affects your own units (+1 to reserve rolls) and your opponent cannot even 'take it over' like they could a Quad Gun if I am not mistaken.
You are mistaken.

Page 104 tells us that and unengaged unit within 2" of a comms relay can re-roll reserve rolls.
That means it could be enemy or friendly, in fact it could be both !



Buildings/Fortifications are not units.

1. Their allegiance depends on whom is occupying them.
2. If they are destroyed they do not grant Kill Points.
3. They are not mentioned under unit types nor vehicles.
4. They cannot be attacked if they are not occupied by an enemy.
5. Fortifications are placed prior to terrain, not when the units of your army are deployed and they are not restricted to your deployment zone, unlike your "units".
6. Buildings are not a vehicle they simply share some aspects/rules of the characteristics of a vehicle.
7. They cannot fire their weapons of their own accord.

There are many reasons why fortifications are not units which far out weigh the idea that they "might" be because you pay for them yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
You have your way of thinking but if we stay RAW, it is written that buildings use aspects of transport vehicles. It is not stated what aspect they don't use minus the special rules of the buildings.

Transport vehicles are vehicules and so are units. It's one of the aspect of the transport vehicules and so it's an aspect of the buildings.

Where is it stated that buildings are neutral ?You go by some shortcuts that wrong you finally. If I read rules and try to only read them without RAI, I can see that the bastion is one my units (as all of the units I bought in my list unless we all go wrong since years) that are treated in a really special way (the ways magie_oz quoted very well).

You can occupy one of my unit ? Ok
You can use one of my unit ? Ok
This unit cannot fire by itself ? Ok
Etc ...

In fact, everything is treated by the rules as written.
 
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