[Sethis]

Duke Sliscus
150

Haemonculus with Liquifier
60

Haemonculus with Liquifier
60

9 Kabalite Trueborn with Carbines, Dracon and Venom Blade
163

Raider with Flickerfield
70

4 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances
98

9 Wracks with Liquifier and Acothyst with Venom Blade
115

Raider with Sails
65

9 Wracks with Liquifier and Acothyst with Venom Blade
115

Raider with Sails
65

10 Warriors with Blaster and Splinter Cannon
115

Raider with Flickerfield and Splinter Racks
80

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Disintigrator Ravager with Fields
115

1501

Compared to my Mech Eldar, this army can put out a frankly silly amount of firepower - 12 Lance shots on turn one. The warriors working in conjunction with the Trueborn - 49 splinter shots, almost half of which wound on 3+.

Alternatives include:

swapping a Wrack unit for a Wych unit

Small Reaver squad instead of sniper Trueborn

Wyches over Warriors to benefit from combat drugs reroll

Unit of full Razorwing Beastmasters - 210 points for 75 attacks, most of them Rending. 5 Wounds need to be caused before any attacks are lost. Downside is they're a bit slow and get insta-deathed by S6 weapons.

Considering Sathonyx as well with Hellions instead of Wracks, but I'm not sure it's a good move.

 

[Sethis]

New idea, not sure if it's an improvement.

Vect
240

Baron Sathnoyx
105

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

15 Hellions with Helliarch with Agoniser

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

I don't have my codex with me right now, but I think I have about the right amount here.

The idea is to get first turn and then cause such a huge power imbalance that it effectively cripples the opponents ability to retaliate. 20 Lance shots on turn one should turn any vehicle I can see into a smoking crater with shots to spare to start working on heavy infantry/MCs/Walkers. I don't play many Horde players, but if I do then the Warrior squads will thin them out slightly before I assault with the Hellions.

What does anyone think?

 

[beakerpsych]

both nice

I think both these lists are very viable.

In your DL spam list I think you will be dissappointed by the performance of the hellions.
Why not use Asdrubel and incubi to be your cc champs instead, they will perform much better.:victory:

You also mentioned beastmasters with razorwings and got me thinking, perhaps that is what a hellion with stunclaw should be doing, depositing independent characters near all thosen rending attacks. :santa:

 

[Khorothis]

Liquifiers are sure nice and shiny but they aren't exactly helping the Wracks getting into close combat, which is pretty necessary given their dismal resilience to shooting.

Also, whats the big deal about Flickerfields? A bloody 5++ isn't worth it, just stick a Night Shield on it and you're golden. How often will those 10 points get their points back? Two times out of six, mathematically (and we all know what does that mean). How often will the Night Shield help? A bit more case-sensitive but a lot more. With a bit of clever positioning it can make several guns useless, most of the time Bolters, MMs, Assault Cannons and Plasma Guns.

Thats all I can say about the first list. Its pretty cool, I'd give it a try.

The other list is... well... Vect goes where? Do you intend to play Space Wolf and sit back, let the big guns kill everyone and then mop up the floor with your Hellions? If so, Vect doesn't belong there, hes too expensive to babysit one of the Trueborn. Or did you intend to let him run around, middle finger in the air, and let his Shadowfield do the job?

 

[Sethis]

Liquifiers are sure nice and shiny but they aren't exactly helping the Wracks getting into close combat, which is pretty necessary given their dismal resilience to shooting.

Nope, but a 50/50 chance of having a flamer that kills MEQs on 4+ is pretty damn nice for softening stuff up before the assault.

Also, whats the big deal about Flickerfields? A bloody 5++ isn't worth it, just stick a Night Shield on it and you're golden. How often will those 10 points get their points back? Two times out of six, mathematically (and we all know what does that mean). How often will the Night Shield help? A bit more case-sensitive but a lot more. With a bit of clever positioning it can make several guns useless, most of the time Bolters, MMs, Assault Cannons and Plasma Guns.

You'll notice I only put flickers on raiders that are intended to sit fairly still and snipe with their guns/warriors. It's quite hard to position a Raider where it can claim an obscured save and yet still shoot its gun and the passengers on board, so I'm happy paying 10 points for a slightly worse cover save that is permanent. The problem with Night shields is that they do nothing against, say, Autocannon, Missile Launchers, Battlecannon, Lascannon, Lances... they're useless aganst just as much stuff as they are useful against. I'd rather have something that is equally useful against every gun in the game.

The other list is... well... Vect goes where? Do you intend to play Space Wolf and sit back, let the big guns kill everyone and then mop up the floor with your Hellions? If so, Vect doesn't belong there, hes too expensive to babysit one of the Trueborn. Or did you intend to let him run around, middle finger in the air, and let his Shadowfield do the job?

It would definitely be a "sit back and shoot" army, and depending on how aggressive the enemy is being, the Hellions can sit and wait for him to come to me, or I can aggressively go after him. Vect would do one of two things; either displace a Warrior unit from their raider and ride into enemy lines on it by himself, or run from cover to cover by himself given that he can pretty much solo anything that isn't a Dreadnaught. If the enemy wants to focus any kind of serious firepower at him then I'm more than happy for them to do so - it means they're not shooting the Trueborn or Ravagers who are frankly bigger threats.

Because I have Vect and Baron, I don't have the points to accompany both of them. It's a choice between a Raider Incubi squad for Vect, or a Hellion squad for the Baron, and I figure Vect works the better of the two without the luxury of a bodyguard.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Khorothis]

Hmmm... But if you use Liquifiers then you either have to field Wracks en masse so you can afford to lose some, or use them as a delivery system for said Liquifier and shoot up stuff that would shoot them up.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think you convinced me.

Ya know... the new Vect model must have a version where he lifts a middle finger in the air, 'cause I can easily imagine lots of people doing what you said. 'cause it might just end up being a great idea, if you keep rolling 2+s as you mathematically should. One of my Terminators has that extended middle finger PF from the Termie Lord sprue and he has a habit of surviving crazy things... and getting killed by something beyond anti-climatic.

 

[beakerpsych]

Ya know... the new Vect model must have a version where he lifts a middle finger in the air, 'cause I can easily imagine lots of people doing what you said. 'cause it might just end up being a great idea, if you keep rolling 2+s as you mathematically should.

Is there a dice god that I should be praying to? I can't roll 6 dice without rolling a 1.

20 Lance shots on turn one should turn any vehicle I can see into a smoking crater with shots to spare to start working on heavy infantry/MCs/Walkers.

I find that it takes me about 6 lance shots to kill a vehicle with armor 12 or better. With 20 that would be beween 3 and 4. At 1500 points this should do the trick, I think. I took your lead and use the small trueborn squads for dl in my 1000 pt list, but they do die quickly.

 

[Sethis]

Yeah, they are fragile as hell, but I'm kinda semi-hoping that they'll have done their job by turn 2, and also that the Hellions and Raider Squads might absorb some of the flak that would otherwise have been aimed at them.

I also have been playing with the list in my head and have considered swapping out Vect for another Raider squad and a bigger Hellion unit, or of swapping him for some Haemonculi and a Wrack Raider squad. The Raider Warrior squad gains me two Dark Lances, but the Haemonculi gives me FNP for the Hellions, as well as a Wrack squad in a Raider which counts as a troops choice, and can engage with Horde-ish units fairly well.

 

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Vect
240

Meh.

Baron Sathnoyx
105

Meh.
I see that you're going for the alpha strike here. I'll explain later why this is relatively useless.

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

Slogging, these are all dead. Wasted points.

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

So your Raiders either stay still or dump the warriors? If the Warriors slog, they die. If the Raider stays still, it dies. Flickerfield is frigging useless. 5+ save on your AV10 opentopped vehicle? Dump it.

15 Hellions with Helliarch with Agoniser

Amazing! You'll beat up MEQs in HtH! And then anything with any real CC ability wipes them and combat res kills Baron Syntax. Crap.

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Decent, sadly mandatory.

The idea is to get first turn and then cause such a huge power imbalance that it effectively cripples the opponents ability to retaliate. 20 Lance shots on turn one should turn any vehicle I can see into a smoking crater with shots to spare to start working on heavy infantry/MCs/Walkers. I don't play many Horde players, but if I do then the Warrior squads will thin them out slightly before I assault with the Hellions.

You will get turn 1 reliably with Vect/Baron Syntax combo. And then your opponent places everything in reserve, rolls on whenever, and beats up your crappy vehicles. No one's going to sit there and take that many lances to the face. At least 2 Ravagers will die. At least 1 Trueborn squad will die. And then you have 12 lances left. That's 8 hits per turn. 1 glances, 3 pen. Who does that scare? No one. And the next turn, more reserves come in. You lose the other Ravager and all your Trueborn. And then you have 5 lances. Which is nothing. Guard beat you up, BA beat you up, SW beat you up. You can't contend with any of the top 3. Even Eldar will kill this with no effort.

 

[beakerpsych]

Meh.

Well, can't argue with logic like that.

You will get turn 1 reliably with Vect/Baron Syntax combo. And then your opponent places everything in reserve, rolls on whenever, and beats up your crappy vehicles. No one's going to sit there and take that many lances to the face. At least 2 Ravagers will die. At least 1 Trueborn squad will die. And then you have 12 lances left. That's 8 hits per turn. 1 glances, 3 pen. Who does that scare? No one. And the next turn, more reserves come in. You lose the other Ravager and all your Trueborn. And then you have 5 lances. Which is nothing. Guard beat you up, BA beat you up, SW beat you up. You can't contend with any of the top 3. Even Eldar will kill this with no effort.

I don't really see that starting wiht nothing on the board, and then only having half your army would be especially effective. Starting with everything off the board means that everything has to move onto the board before it can do anything. Moving vehicles shoot less. I don't think '2 ravagers will die' at all, nor that 'then the trueborn die'. Just the opposite in fact. You will start with half your army moving onto the board at the beginnig of the second turn and then that half of your army will die. I mean seriously how many tanks will you start off with rolling onto the board in turn two? Five? For a very mechanized army. Your argument is flawed. And hey, stop making fun of my crappy vehicles too.

 

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Chimeras can kill Ravagers pretty easily, lol. At 1500...say 1 Manticore, 1-2 Vendettas w/ HBs, and 3 chimeras come in turn 2. Each Vendetta that shoots probably kills a Ravager. 2 pens from lascannons is the norm against an AV11 vehicle. It's open topped. And, as a guard player, a 5+ save isn't a "save" at all. It's a hope.

Manticore kills either another Ravager or tears up a Trueborn squad.

DE kill the Manticore or a Vendetta, make the others unable to shoot the next turn.

Next turn, autocannons shoot you from Chimeras, another Mantie and another Vendetta or 2 come one, as do 2 more Chims (on avg, obv.). That last Ravager's done for. Autocannons come out of the Chims at Raiders. Mantie shoots the Hellions (kills at least half the squad, so you know). Multilasers work on the Trueborn.

But hey, that's just my flawed argument. Based in experience and backed up by the math.

 

[Ragnar]

This is true... IG are the best army... ever... I will challenge that any time, anywhere. It's called Vassal, for those of you playing at home

 

[beakerpsych]

Chimeras can kill Ravagers pretty easily, lol. At 1500...say 1 Manticore, 1-2 Vendettas w/ HBs, and 3 chimeras come in turn 2. Each Vendetta that shoots probably kills a Ravager. 2 pens from lascannons is the norm against an AV11 vehicle. It's open topped. And, as a guard player, a 5+ save isn't a "save" at all. It's a hope.

OK just off the top your numbers must be skewed because i don't think you are playing with 2 manticores 6 chimeras and 4 vendettas,
That is the math that you would need to get those units on the board in turn two, unless you have some ability to get stuff sooner that I don't know about. To be fair with what you have purposed before, you should only be getting half your army on the board on turn two. If this is half than cudos to you its a damn nice list. Otherwise confess.


You realize of course that you are just as likely to get 4 chimeras out on the first turn?
Or 1 maniticore and 1 vendetta and 1 chimera. on a slightly unlucky roll?
If you got all your chimeras out and nothing else you would hurt bad.
My point of course being that you don't know what you're going to get if you put everything in reserve. As also a chaos demon player, I can tell you that reserves are not that well counted on. (Well, at least you're not derp strike.)
Yes IG armor is nasty, but then, so is your attitude.

 

[beakerpsych]

[/QUOTE]
Imperial Guard
Codex: Imperial Guard

This is true... IG are the best army... ever... I will challenge that any time, anywhere. It's called Vassal, for those of you playing at home

Imperial Guard
Codex: Imperial Guard
Wow, you do display your bestness with humble iti tude.

 

[Ragnar]

If I didn't offer myself up to be challenged, then I would see a problem with my logic. If I offer anybody to challenge my claims in a game, I don't see what the problem is. Imperial Guard isn't based on humility or lack-thereof; it's matter of fact.

oh, slight qualifier:
it's not myself I'm glorifying here; it is the Imperial Guard codex as the most ridiculously IMBA, broken, and unbeatable book when taken objectively (that is, outside of player competence and luck).

 

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

OK just off the top your numbers must be skewed because i don't think you are playing with 2 manticores 6 chimeras and 4 vendettas,
That is the math that you would need to get those units on the board in turn two, unless you have some ability to get stuff sooner that I don't know about. To be fair with what you have purposed before, you should only be getting half your army on the board on turn two. If this is half than cudos to you its a damn nice list. Otherwise confess.


You realize of course that you are just as likely to get 4 chimeras out on the first turn?
Or 1 maniticore and 1 vendetta and 1 chimera. on a slightly unlucky roll?
If you got all your chimeras out and nothing else you would hurt bad.
My point of course being that you don't know what you're going to get if you put everything in reserve. As also a chaos demon player, I can tell you that reserves are not that well counted on. (Well, at least you're not derp strike.)
Yes IG armor is nasty, but then, so is your attitude.

Thank you for the list compliment. It's actually 3 Vendettas. 1 or 2 turn 2 and the remaining one(s) usually the next turn (you have to assume rough averages when comparing lists and planning). If I get all Chims then I'm still fine. AV11 opentopped lets me do something with multilasers, and my really shooty stuff would be untouched and I'd get more of it at once. I'd still blow the army off the board. I know how reserves go, I played Daemons a bit, and got fed up with "derp strike". I never had problems with reserves deviating significantly from the average with a well designed and redundant army, though.

As to my attitude, the nearest thing to confrontational was the closing line in my post. I merely make my point in a systematic way, which many people find annoying because it appears that I am calling them stupid when I a merely presenting my argument thoroughly. That said, this is the internet, and ultimately I am just trying to help the OP with his list. I could care less about offending people even though I do not set out to do so.

I hope I've been able to clarify both my post and my "attitude".

 

[Sethis]

I concede that Imperial Guard are relatively overpowered, and that Leafblower is one of the most competitive army builds out there. Bearing that in mind...

My original point was to argue that Dark Eldar are capable of handling the majority of lists out there if played right and built right. I wouldn't call Imperial Guard the "Majority" of lists all by themselves. I think this list (or a tournament tested version of it at an appropriate points size, given that most tournies don't run at 1500, which is what this list is) would give Razor-spam, Mechdar, Nids and several other armies a good run for their money.

Saying what Ragnar said, which was "Dark Eldar can't handle tanks" is in my mind utterly wrong. Give me *any* army that can "handle" Leafblower or its varients easily and I'll give you the new uber-powered codex to replace Guard. On the other hand if you play any other Mech list, I think it would be a different story.

You're also forgetting that every vehicle in the Dark Eldar army will have a cover save on the turn you arrive, right? You can't just say "My army turns up and rapes you" because it all depends on how lucky you are with rolls, what the terrain is like, what edge you outflank from, what you have LoS to and so on. For all you know I'm hiding behind a statue of the Emperor two feet wide in my own deployment zone...

Even if I'm not, with Guard BS a Chimera hits 1.5 times with a multilaser, averages less than a glancing hit on the penetration roll, and the hits I do take I save on a 4+. In the meantime my return fire pops three chimeras and I wipe out two of your troops choices with my Hellions that are now in your Deployment zone. It's amazing how armies perform when you're just pretending what would happen, isn't it? :grin:

 

[beakerpsych]

Thank you for the list compliment. It's actually 3 Vendettas. 1 or 2 turn 2 and the remaining one(s) usually the next turn (you have to assume rough averages when comparing lists and planning). If I get all Chims then I'm still fine. AV11 opentopped lets me do something with multilasers, and my really shooty stuff would be untouched and I'd get more of it at once.

Yeesh.

It is a nasty list.

I still am unconvinced that your tactic of putting everything in reserve will result in the cakewalk that you propose. Your chimeras are good but not really great, and its their numbers that really make the difference.

Of course you were being confrontational! So was I! No worries mate!:victory:

 

[Ragnar]

sethis... play against the damn list, lol. I'm not pretending up stuff; if you think that list can't do what you say it will, then test it with me. I'd also venture that wolves, BA, SM, and CSM can easily handle anything DE can throw at them. So, take your pic of army for me to use and we'll test it out. IDK how much more open to being 'proven wrong' I can be here, if you believe that I am, in fact, wrong.

 

[Creon]

New idea, not sure if it's an improvement.

Vect
240

Don't mix Vect with anyone else. Too many points held up that way. I would suggest EITHER the Baron or Vect, not both.

Baron Sathnoyx
105

'sall right, I'd rather see Sliscus here, since you're not really using his abilities much in the following army.

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

4x Trueborn, 2 Lances
98

Get Blasters, Get Venoms. Two units of (4xtrueborn, 4xblasters, 1x Venoms). This gives you the ability to turbo across the board, and usually one will live to glide along, blasting at it's enemies. Three units this size walking? Dead meat.

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

10 Warriors with Dark Lance in Raider with Flickerfield
195

Buy a Blaster for these crews. That gives you an extra lance when needed, as the enemy closes. And they will.

15 Hellions with Helliarch with Agoniser

Drop these. Far to expensive for their use. Replace with Wyches in a Raider. Ok, I'm going against the grain here, but a Raider full of wyches is a distraction the enemy. Give 'em Blast Pistol and haywire, and the enemy will waste a lot of work taking down the unit. use them to turbo in amongst the sheep, and watch the enemy scramble to take them out, letting the rest of you sneak up.

Use the points saved by only using one Special Character to put 20 warriors on foot with 2 lances out. Gives you a decent sized "holding" unit, that can dish out some pain when needed and absorb incoming fire.

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Ravager with Fields
115

Nothing wrong here. I prefer the VoidRaven instead of Ravager 3. Play around and find your comfort zone.

I don't have my codex with me right now, but I think I have about the right amount here.

The idea is to get first turn and then cause such a huge power imbalance that it effectively cripples the opponents ability to retaliate. 20 Lance shots on turn one should turn any vehicle I can see into a smoking crater with shots to spare to start working on heavy infantry/MCs/Walkers. I don't play many Horde players, but if I do then the Warrior squads will thin them out slightly before I assault with the Hellions.

What does anyone think?